Jodan Mawashi - Commiting

[aznraven]

I have this habit that is very hard to change and just wondering if anyone else has such a problem.

When kicking a Jodan mawashi, I always do a snap kick instead of a follow-through...the only time I can do a follow-through is in the air, never against an opponent or even a heavybag.

I can do it fast just fine when asked to demonstrate it in the air.

I have a feeling it is due to my reflex of fighting point sparring in my other style (I compete alot, in club/national/regional events).

For now it is fine during practice because we are not encouraged to perform the follow-through on sparring partners anyway so face-slaps are good enough but I intend to compete hopefully no too far in the future and it might be a problem.

Besides drilling it in the air, what else do you guys thing i should do and has anyone faced a similar problem.

Btw on the heavybag, I can somewhat follow-through but I still jerk back my leg when it connects with bag, nothing like the blackbelts in the dojo where it slams and stays there thereafter they slowly move back their leg...

[friedmandu]

For now it is fine during practice because we are not encouraged to perform the follow-through on sparring partners anyway so face-slaps are good enough but I intend to compete hopefully no too far in the future and it might be a problem.


After analyzing the video of my first tournament performance, I can see that I was not following through on my high roundhouse kicks, too. It's hilarious; I throw my foot up there and get right next to the guy's face once or twice, but I deliberately hold back. I think the obvious reason as to why I was doing this was because when I sparred in the dojo in preparation for the tournament, I would always hold back from making full contact with my sparring partner's face. This is of course just a polite gesture, but it actually hindered my own ability to perform to my fullest in a tournament. So I can personally attest to the fact that unless you make ample preparations now, you will face problems in tournaments in the future due (ironically) to your own muscle memory.

One solution to this problem you have noted already -- more bag work. I find your comment below perplexing, however:


Btw on the heavybag, I can somewhat follow-through but I still jerk back my leg when it connects with bag, nothing like the blackbelts in the dojo where it slams and stays there thereafter they slowly move back their leg...

I'm just a yellow belt and therefore don't really know that much, but it sounds to me like you already have all of the necessary ingredients to fix the problem: black belts and a heavy bag! Pay attention to the sound and sight of the bag when you strike it and compare them to the sound and sight of the black belts' bag work. Have the black belts watch you and correct your form as necessary. Imagine that you're kicking through the bag. Resist the temptation to jerk back your leg.

In addition to 1) more focused bag work, I would suggest: 2) Try to find a sparring partner who is not afraid of the occasional blow to the face and work with them. If it takes mouthguards, shinguards, and/or training helmets to get comfortable with the idea of knocking someone up high / getting clocked in the face, then do it. It's so important to get used to follow-through.

[Dent]

Osu!

You need both for Knockdown.

With special thanks to Daisukey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0pMyMnXDkQ

Osu!

[Billy no mates]

Have you considered using something other than a heavy bag to practice on?,try rigging up an improvised headache bag,doesnt have to be any thing special,something bodged together from a deflated football baset/basketball/whatever you have thats head sized put a bit of sand in it to get the weight right then stuff it with rags of whatever else you have to get the density right fortify with gaffa tape and then suspend from a beam or what ever else you can hang it from and your good to go .
It should encourage you to follow through if you have a target you can hit and displace like this smaller bag,but it sounds like you need might also need to go back a bit and relearn the kick slowly at first all the while concentrating on what your really trying to achieve with it .

[sandman]

I like Billy no mates suggestion - find a target you can hang from the ceiling and practice kicking through it. Or if you have a partner, focus mits can work.

My problem is that I can't get the kick up to jodan level yet. :rolleyes:

[Hangtime]

...I throw my foot up there and get right next to the guy's face once or twice, but I deliberately hold back. I think the obvious reason as to why I was doing this was because when I sparred in the dojo in preparation for the tournament, I would always hold back from making full contact with my sparring partner's face.

I think KD fighting is 50% mental; most people don't want to do for fear of what might happen. Might I suggest you find a few people in the dojo that are a little more willing to take the chance on you ringing their bell (and you have to be willing to do the same) and get accustomed to following through. It may be more mental than muscle memory.


I have the same problem.


OSU!

[FredInChina]

Osu!

You need both for Knockdown.

With special thanks to Daisukey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0pMyMnXDkQ

Osu!
Wow, great video! Thank you Daisukey :)- and thank you Dent :)for posting!
A littl'bit of promotion cannot hurt K4L, can it?

(I especially like the stair work near the end... dunno why... :D)

[jcarmello]

My problem is that I can't get the kick up to jodan level yet. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Yeah my Jodan is about 2 inches lower then my Chudan Mawashi(lol)!:o

[meguro]

have this habit that is very hard to change and just wondering if anyone else has such a problem.

When kicking a Jodan mawashi, I always do a snap kick instead of a follow-through...the only time I can do a follow-through is in the air, never against an opponent or even a heavybag.

I can do it fast just fine when asked to demonstrate it in the air.

I have a feeling it is due to my reflex of fighting point sparring in my other style (I compete alot, in club/national/regional events).

Everyone who starts out as a point fighter and switches to knockdown deals with this problem. For some reason, it's always jodan. A simple remedy is to let your knee cross the center line before releasing your lower leg.




My problem is that I can't get the kick up to jodan level yet. :rolleyes:

Oh I don't know, sandman. You're pretty tall; your chudan is jodan for everyone else.:D

[sandman]

Oh I don't know, sandman. You're pretty tall; your chudan is jodan for everyone else.:D

I just need to find some shorter opponents. Usually I do have a height advantage, but at the last Superfights I was average height in my division :eek:

[harukaze]

Try concentrating on the movement of your hip: make sure it rolls all the way over on your jodan mawashi geri, and your leg is sure to follow complete with the requisite impact. Another trick is to concentrate on placing your kicking foot back on the ground past the center of your body, thus insuring a kick that goes "through" the target. After it's ingrained through air drills, next try it on a focus target (making sure to pass completely through the mitt and concentrating on your hips rolling and placing your foot back down on the "far side" of your body's centerline). After you have it down consistently, try it on the heavy bag (imagine your target is not the bag but a melon floating off to the side of the bag opposite your kicking leg). After you get that down consistently, it's time to try it in kumite (within reason, of course hehe).

[Godai]

Try concentrating on the movement of your hip: make sure it rolls all the way over on your jodan mawashi geri, and your leg is sure to follow complete with the requisite impact. Another trick is to concentrate on placing your kicking foot back on the ground past the center of your body, thus insuring a kick that goes "through" the target. After it's ingrained through air drills, next try it on a focus target (making sure to pass completely through the mitt and concentrating on your hips rolling and placing your foot back down on the "far side" of your body's centerline). After you have it down consistently, try it on the heavy bag (imagine your target is not the bag but a melon floating off to the side of the bag opposite your kicking leg). After you get that down consistently, it's time to try it in kumite (within reason, of course hehe).

Good advice. I was just about to suggest making sure you turn the hip over when I read this. :) It is the difference between typical karate kicks and this type of (more Muay Thai) style of kicking. You have to let go of what your prior training has ingrained in your head and your mechanics. Don't forget your support (pivot) foot. Get your heel toward your target.

[powerof0ne]

I came from a shito ryu to muay thai to knockdown kind of sort of background. Follow through your hips like others are saying and what CAN help is think of doing an inside crescent kick. However, do not get in the habit of throwing an inside crescent for a mawashi geri so take my advice with a grain of salt. The crescent kick forces you to use your hips instead of doing the WKF style snap mawashi geri. I had a student some years ago that was just throwing crescent kicks and don't get me wrong the crescent kick works but it's no mawashi geri!

However, don't forget the snap mawashi geri, neither!

This is one of the times where I think a good muay thai gym helps someone learn how to follow through on a kick well, noticed I said good muay thai gym. Everybody and their grandma "knows" muay thai now :(.

[GJEC]

I know it's the last century but as a kid I got a long stick and put cabbages on the top ...

OK this was before we had kick shields etc (at least in our dojo) but it worked for me. Instead of just kicking it off - when you stop the leg and flick it, I eventually got so I could explode a cabbage at well over six feet high with either leg. To do that you had to smash through it without holding anything back.

Some of my opponents (on doors) looked about the same so it came in handy.

Gary

[Dent]

Osu!

Not sure about all this advice though... Sounds a lot like Kihon to me... ;)

Osu!

[GJEC]

LOL

That's true -

Forgot to mention you've got to do it till you're bored sick with it.

Then one day it just 'clicks' and you never forget it.

Gary

[sandman]

I know it's the last century but as a kid I got a long stick and put cabbages on the top ...



IMPORTANT NOTE:

Buy your own cabbages! Don't take the ones your wife or Mom bought - no mawashi geri will save you from that predicament... :D

[Godai]

I know it's the last century but as a kid I got a long stick and put cabbages on the top ...


Once you can make cole slaw with a kick you're ready to go! :D

[DrPhil]

This is one of the times where I think a good muay thai gym helps someone learn how to follow through on a kick well

I trained a little in muay thai. I remember how the instructor was specifically teaching to kick through.

He was standing presenting a target for the kick (mid section), and he shifted right before impact, which actually forced to kick through if we wanted to hit the target.

[Godai]

Part of the problem when moving from most traditional styles is that they focus on point sparring. The techniques have been tailored to meet these needs and what ends up happening is that you learn to kick "at" your target rather than through it. The whole posture is wrong as well as distancing and positioning.

[aznraven]

hmmm, thanks for the advice guys...I think the soundest piece is keep trying it in sparring... I had some mat time when teaching a kids class and tried some of the suggestions including using the focus mitts. I feel that I can kick them fine and I could kick harder on the heavybag when I just pretended its a "higher" chudan mawashi lol...go figure...

Im going to try it on my next kyokushin training, thanks

OSU!

Part of the problem when moving from most traditional styles is that they focus on point sparring. The techniques have been tailored to meet these needs and what ends up happening is that you learn to kick "at" your target rather than through it. The whole posture is wrong as well as distancing and positioning.

I won't want to start an unrelated debate on this thread so I'll just state that I disagree. :D

[harukaze]

Good advice. I was just about to suggest making sure you turn the hip over when I read this. :) It is the difference between typical karate kicks and this type of (more Muay Thai) style of kicking. You have to let go of what your prior training has ingrained in your head and your mechanics. Don't forget your support (pivot) foot. Get your heel toward your target.

Oh yeah, I did forget to mention turning the heel of the support leg towards the target. Thanks for filling that gap, that's really important! Osu!

[Syauqi]

Osu!

You need both for Knockdown.

With special thanks to Daisukey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0pMyMnXDkQ

Osu!

Osu!
great video Dent,
I can heard their gedan mawashi, really nasty and fast.
Osu!

[GJEC]

Once you can make cole slaw with a kick you're ready to go

That was the thing. I wasn't bothered about the kicks, I just hate vegetables. :)

Gary

[DKKC]

I used to have the same problem (with the kick, not the veggies!) so i changed the way I controlled my kick when training and sparring in the dojo - instead of kicking to the heand then stopping and coming back, I would kick to the head, keep my knee bent and take my leg past their face (in front of their face) - doing a full rotation. I found it a lot easier in competition to just straighten my leg for a full effect. Even if i hesitated to straighten the leg at first, as I kept travelling in the same direction and the knee went past the target, the effect would be the same and i would lose no power or speed by straightening the leg a little later than I should have! :D

[SteveK]

There is nothing wrong with a snap kick as long as you kick through the target - check out some of the mawashi ko's on youtube - a lot of snap kicks there just that the focus is through the target

[harukaze]

There is nothing wrong with a snap kick as long as you kick through the target - check out some of the mawashi ko's on youtube - a lot of snap kicks there just that the focus is through the target

Especially applicable when the target is the head/neck! ;)

[SteveK]

Just had a thought today and don't know if it was mentioned before - have a look at the position of your supporting leg - you may just need to move it a little bit more outside the line of the target to get better penetration in the kick

[DharmaDesigns]

This is such an excellent thread! I have developed the ability to do a jodan mawashi geri, but I have never done one while making contact with the person's head. In our dojo, you can only try one sparring, if you can control it and make sure it lands well away from actually knocking someone's head. I just recently have felt like I have enough control to try it sparring. But this all means that I've NEVER tried to do one with follow-through. I just got my first standing bag for Christmas. Should I start practicing thumping it with jodan mawashi geris? I want to start good habits that will serve me well in my future kumite. Maybe my fellow fight club members have input too?:confused:

OSU-EN2

[sandman]

I just got my first standing bag for Christmas. Should I start practicing thumping it with jodan mawashi geris? I want to start good habits that will serve me well in my future kumite. Maybe my fellow fight club members have input too?:confused:

OSU-EN2

Yes!

Also, in fight club training we'll need to make sure we do plenty of pad drills to help work on the follow through part. I think we all need to work on it...

[DharmaDesigns]

Will do, sandman. That bag better watch it!OSU-EN2

[aussiefighter]

i've had this same problem before in tournaments. mostly due to muscle memory as a result of pulling my kicks in sparring in the dojo. our instructor has us wearing headgear everytime we spar now, not only to encourage ur to follow through but to get over the shock of being hit, a slap in the face is nothing but if ur not used to it, it may cost you a half point.
Also when doing bag work, make sure ur knee comes past ur centreline of your body, that way ur kick can extend through ur target... where the knee goes the leg will follow. if you are trying to kick with your knee out to the side you will lose power. i've found the same for low kicks. if that makes sense :)

[FredInChina]

This is such an excellent thread! I have developed the ability to do a jodan mawashi geri, but I have never done one while making contact with the person's head. In our dojo, you can only try one sparring, if you can control it and make sure it lands well away from actually knocking someone's head. I just recently have felt like I have enough control to try it sparring. But this all means that I've NEVER tried to do one with follow-through. I just got my first standing bag for Christmas. Should I start practicing thumping it with jodan mawashi geris? I want to start good habits that will serve me well in my future kumite. Maybe my fellow fight club members have input too?:confused:

OSU-EN2
Excellent Dharma - now try kicking over that bag, with follow through! :D:D

[GJEC]

DharmaDesigns

This is something we use mainly with the juniors as a bit of fun, but the seniors do it from time to time and still seem to get benefit. (And a laugh)

Get the person holding the kickshield or armguards to stand on one leg. (The one closest to the kick - so they stand on their left leg if you're kicking with the right etc) Purpose of the drill is to make them lose balance and put their other leg down. Slapping's no good, they just take the hit by leaning into it a bit. Pushing's no good, they just hop away to adjust their balance. Only a really good impact will make them lose balance fast enough to force that leg down.

Most juniors struggle so we look for a burst of three fast kicks to finish the job. Ideally seniors should be looking to do it in one shot. Everyone I've seen try this (unsuccessfully :() goes on to hit harder afterwards and has a really big smile on their face when they manage it. :D

Gary

[DharmaDesigns]

Fred, I hope it is weighted correctly; so I don't have to kick it over everytime.

Thanks, Gary! That's brilliant! I'm going to beg my fellow fight club members to let me kick them one-legged! I can't want to tell you about the 1st time I can get xrisscross or sandman to drop his flamingo leg. (It may take a year or more of trying, but I will never give up! :D:p

OSU-EN2

[FredInChina]

Fred, I hope it is weighted correctly; so I don't have to kick it over everytime. (...)
LOL, I did not mean kick it over, but kick over it... :D
Lift your leg, darn it!
Ave it!

[DharmaDesigns]

Oh! Ok! My mistake, Fred. Sorry, I didn't hear you right; I had a banana in my ear that messed up our Tennessee to China connection! Ah, now I see! So you're saying to set it on the lowest setting and do my jodan mawashi above it (kind of like through the invisible head of my oppponent?)? Will do. :DOSU-EN2

[Hangtime]

Should I start practicing thumping it with jodan mawashi geris?

Yes!
Osu-EN1

And, for the sake of parity, I have a defensive drill that will help with getting mentally adjusted to kicking someone. I like it, but finding people that will actually throw the kick (outside of the folks that go to Saturday sessions) is hard.

Oh, and while you're kicking...

...make sure ur knee comes past ur centreline of your body, that way ur kick can extend through ur target... where the knee goes the leg will follow...



I'm going to beg my fellow fight club members to let me kick them one-legged! I can't want to tell you about the 1st time I can get xrisscross or sandman to drop his flamingo leg.

You're on, but I get to try too :D

Osu-EN1

[Strangelight]

I've found that the way you counterweight with your arms have a lot to you with the amount of force you deliver in a jodan mawashi. Lets say you kick with your right leg, if you swing your right arm across too soon, like many do during kihon training for control, your kick turns in to a skin touch snap kick. Delay your counterweight just a little and you'll drive through your target and still be able to pull your leg back. Don't counterweight at all to get a complete drive through.

There's a lot more to a good JMG than just leg work, you need to develop a good control of the way your balance reacts to the momentum of the kick.

Osu!

(Yeay! My first post on K4L!)

[Godai]

Good post and welcome Strangelight.

I have a simple way of kicking through on jodan mawashi geri.
See head, put kick way on the other side of head. Done.
Next opponent
:D