karate vs grappling arts

[netsecure]

I hate to start this post, because i might sound like a UFC fan or something with no experience in knockdown karate etc. However yesterday, while taking a grappling class at my dojo, i started questioning karate practicality (either knockdown or traditional) against the grappling arts.
When you fight a wrestler or a grappler these guys usually are so fast and quick that they dont give you a single moment to even think of what to do.
They keep their distance from you so you wont have the opportunity to throw a technqiue and they close on you so fast, that you wouldnt even have time to throw a single punch or kick, even if you do manage to throw them a kick or punch if you dont knock them out with it, they wont give you a seconed chance because they come straight towards you to take you down and by the time they are at you close range to get your hands on you, you are dead meat there. They take you down on the ground, and there is not even a single karate technique you can really apply or do while on ground. You are just at the mercy of him to be choked or a limb broken.

My karate is the best in my dojo as comapred to other of my level, however i have no grappling experience.
Yesterday just for my own learning i took a MMA class, where you could throw techqniues to keep the opponent at bay and also do grappling. I did five rounds and was taken down every single time by an opponent with good grappling experience but whose striking(karate) is not good as me.

I started wondering if karate is really a match against grappling such as BJJ, Judo, Wrestling etc.
Out on the street a karate ka only chance of survival aggainst a wrestler or grappler would be to strike first and knock him out with that one strike, otherwise you wont get an other chance.

[jcarmello]

Before making this assessment Netsecure, I recommend becoming proficient in what you train!! When you are out in the street, the one who hits first usually is the victor.......so be it a wrestler, BJJ, Judoka, Karateka, Boxer or palooka.......posturing only wins against posturers..........first strikes usually beat all!

All the training in the world isnt going to make your head feel any better when an adversary takes it off your shoulders!!!

[GJEC]

otherwise you wont get an other chance.


Or so the myth goes ...

I'm not being funny here but are you really at the top of your striking game? Are you striking with intent? I only ask because I struggled with this myself at one time. I sparred with people from other backgrounds on Geoff Thompson courses etc and had opportunities to butt people, stick a thumb in their eye, rip their scrotum off etc etc but instead used control.

They off course steamed in and took me over, no surprise there. On the door when people tried to grab or tackle me I just gave them both barrells and was never taken over.

I prefer striking as you can engage more than one opponent and then run like - well run know - fast, as soon as you go to ground you can only engage one and escaping before his friends join in can get tricky.

Your choice.

Gary

[genosuke]

I hate to start this post, because i might sound like a UFC fan or something with no experience in knockdown karate etc. However yesterday, while taking a grappling class at my dojo, i started questioning karate practicality (either knockdown or traditional) against the grappling arts.
When you fight a wrestler or a grappler these guys usually are so fast and quick that they dont give you a single moment to even think of what to do.
They keep their distance from you so you wont have the opportunity to throw a technqiue and they close on you so fast, that you wouldnt even have time to throw a single punch or kick, even if you do manage to throw them a kick or punch if you dont knock them out with it, they wont give you a seconed chance because they come straight towards you to take you down and by the time they are at you close range to get your hands on you, you are dead meat there. They take you down on the ground, and there is not even a single karate technique you can really apply or do while on ground. You are just at the mercy of him to be choked or a limb broken.

My karate is the best in my dojo as comapred to other of my level, however i have no grappling experience.
Yesterday just for my own learning i took a MMA class, where you could throw techqniues to keep the opponent at bay and also do grappling. I did five rounds and was taken down every single time by an opponent with good grappling experience but whose striking(karate) is not good as me.

I started wondering if karate is really a match against grappling such as BJJ, Judo, Wrestling etc.
Out on the street a karate ka only chance of survival aggainst a wrestler or grappler would be to strike first and knock him out with that one strike, otherwise you wont get an other chance.

they say defense is as important as offense,with these guys you have to concentrate on how they are going to approach you as in grappling to grapple he has to come closer to you so you concentrate on his movement evade or simply move away quickly and when the time is right bang him

[wullie]

I hate to start this post, because i might sound like a UFC fan or something with no experience in knockdown karate etc. However yesterday, while taking a grappling class at my dojo, i started questioning karate practicality (either knockdown or traditional) against the grappling arts.
When you fight a wrestler or a grappler these guys usually are so fast and quick that they dont give you a single moment to even think of what to do.
They keep their distance from you so you wont have the opportunity to throw a technqiue and they close on you so fast, that you wouldnt even have time to throw a single punch or kick, even if you do manage to throw them a kick or punch if you dont knock them out with it, they wont give you a seconed chance because they come straight towards you to take you down and by the time they are at you close range to get your hands on you, you are dead meat there. They take you down on the ground, and there is not even a single karate technique you can really apply or do while on ground. You are just at the mercy of him to be choked or a limb broken.

My karate is the best in my dojo as comapred to other of my level, however i have no grappling experience.
Yesterday just for my own learning i took a MMA class, where you could throw techqniues to keep the opponent at bay and also do grappling. I did five rounds and was taken down every single time by an opponent with good grappling experience but whose striking(karate) is not good as me.

I started wondering if karate is really a match against grappling such as BJJ, Judo, Wrestling etc.
Out on the street a karate ka only chance of survival aggainst a wrestler or grappler would be to strike first and knock him out with that one strike, otherwise you wont get an other chance.
I guess you are only throwing light strikes against theses guys so they are not worried about getting hurt therefore they will close on you no problem. As GJEC points out giving both barrels is a different story.

[genosuke]

also my sensei had a saying "you fight with your mind you fight good"

[netsecure]

Or so the myth goes ...

I'm not being funny here but are you really at the top of your striking game? Are you striking with intent? I only ask because I struggled with this myself at one time. I sparred with people from other backgrounds on Geoff Thompson courses etc and had opportunities to butt people, stick a thumb in their eye, rip their scrotum off etc etc but instead used control.

They off course steamed in and took me over, no surprise there. On the door when people tried to grab or tackle me I just gave them both barrells and was never taken over.

I prefer striking as you can engage more than one opponent and then run like - well run know - fast, as soon as you go to ground you can only engage one and escaping before his friends join in can get tricky.

Your choice.

Gary

Good explanation! I also prefer striking and thats what i concentrate and place emphasizes on during training.
However, i believe that other form of arts shouldnt be disregarded, just because we are training in the strongest form of knock down karate.
With the recent advent of popularity of MMA and UFC, knockdown karate shouldnt be regarded as ultimate, and we shouldnt consider ourselve to be highly trained for a confrontation only because we are training with full contact as oppose to traditional semi contact fighters.

[Dent]

Osu!

Ah.

This is difficult.

First you have to have a definition of Karate. Something that has escaped me for a very long time. And not a generality, but something specific, yet applicable to all.

Or...

You could say that this is applicable to your own Karate, which is fine.

Then you would have to ask about the parameters of the exercise. Were full power punches and kicks with the bare knuckle/ foot in effect? If not, would this have changed the nature of the exercise?

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn to grapple! No, quite to the contrary, you need to know what you're up against. First time I went up against a really good BJJ guy, I had to resort to playing very dirty. Fortunately, he was just as dirty a fighter, and my senior in Karate, so we had a lot of fun. Well, he had more fun than I did, as I had a torn ear, eyes rubbed silly with that heavy duty Kimono of his, and nose and mouth bleeding. Very educational.

So I got down to some training of my own.

(For you West Coast US folk, I highly recommend him. He understands what Karate people need. http://www.shingufighter.com/)

And for you, Netsecure, explore your Karate. Cross train. Have fun. You either have decades of training ahead, or you're about to get run over by an ice-cream van. We don't know, so why not have some fun with it? :D

Osu!

[shidokanatlanta]

netsecure,

you are in a good place to explore all of the possibilities (CFC, US Shidokan Honbu). you have trainers there that come from all the disciplines you mentioned. you will notice that the fighters are a little different than the students in that belt rank is not important to them. you saw a couple of weeks ago at the Open first hand (Chicago Hilton) that there are no guarantees for the karateka in fighting. a kyokushin blackbelt lost a thai boxing match to a guy who probably didn't have a belt. in the mma tournament, a guy with a couple of years experience defeated a nidan. in a real fight, anything can happen and the victory is up for grabs. kickboxing and mma are sports, and are good indicators of what can happen in a fight. in mma, if you have no grappling training, you will most likely lose. in a real fight, a good karate fighter fighting a decent grappler, will end up on the ground if he has no takedown training. you are doing the right thing in training in the different classes to learn how to handle the different ranges. there are effective techniques from karate, kickboxing, and grappling that are appropriate for different situations. all of trainers there (sensei ralph, pat white, shonie, wayne gregory, etc.) have experience in a more than one discipline because you have to cross train. that's the only way to be able to counter something. perfect your basics and go to as many classes as you can. do what you like and what you don't like to do. it's all good. lastly, gone are the days when a karate fighting can't no ground fighting, clinching, boxing, etc. learn all of these things with your kihon and kata and never be complacent.

[powerof0ne]

(For you West Coast US folk, I highly recommend him. He understands what Karate people need. http://www.shingufighter.com/)

Surprised I never heard of him, he definitely sounds like he has a solid background. Not only that but the music on his website made me get up and shake my booty! :D

Personally, I feel at some point you should learn some other "stuff" along the way. Fighting is fun to me and if you're in a dojo that doesn't teach you how to throw, take down, or avoid being taken down at some point cross train. Learn how to grapple on the ground, learn how to fight clinching..cross train at some point. However, I do understand instructors not wanting their 10th-8th kyu etc. students taking up this and that right in the beginning, too. However, if you've been with an instructor for a few years and they're still against you cross training I think perhaps time to leave but that's just my opinion.

I still have yet to find the one style that teaches it all but I've cross trained enough where I don't feel that i'm a master of any type of fighting but I feel that I know enough so I'm happy with focusing on karate now.

Seriously, do what makes you happy, train in whatever you want but do yourself a favor and come up with what your goals are and stick to them. If you keep jumping around from style to style you'll never get a solid base which I have seen some people do.
Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

the music on his website made me get up and shake my booty! :D

My eyes!

http://www.impactlab.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/scary-eyes-dude-274.jpg

Osu!

[kanku]

I don`t think you can compere the two, in karate a quick two fingers to the eyes, or the second knuckle strike to the throat...(most of us prefer this)
does the trick......in out, gone...

getting tangled up on the floor with somebody who know what they are doing is best avoided...imo

so, tennis or badminton.....your choice!

[Rocket]

I've found the best counter for someone trying to shoot in and take you down wrestling style is a 10th Kyu move Hiza gamen geri. When I was a junior Shihan use to regually spend the last 10 min making us do ground wrestling, because he said in a street fight situation the fight could go to the ground.

[eamoncramb]

I think maybe your getting knockdown karate mixed up with kyokushin karate?

Like many on this forum have said before knockdown is us having fun :) its only part of kyokushin, and bunkai and self defense techniques we tech/ get taught should have us preparred for the street. Obviously were not as profficient ass bjj when it comes to the ground, and if we wnt to compete in mma etc we should cross train accordingly.

Personaly for me Kyokushin Karate isnt neceseraly about the tecniques we are taught or whats in the sylabus etc. For me its about the self discipline and spirit. Osu No Seishin! I dont beleive in styles i only beleive in fighting. I could never tain in kyokushin karate again and i would not for one second regret my kyokushin kanji tatoo..... Does that make sense? :P

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

I could never tain in kyokushin karate again and i would not for one second regret my kyokushin kanji tatoo..... Does that make sense? :P

Makes sense to me!

Osu!

[sandman]

Osu!

Great post Eamoncramb! Repped :)

[shidokanatlanta]

here's an example of a sport fight that would have probably ended with the same result or worse had it been a real fight. satake, excellent karate fighter against yoshida, excellent judoka.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhC0FQGRD_w

[shidokanatlanta]

Going old school with a little less rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGcJSzp-Utk

[netsecure]

This fight shows exactly what i posted originally in the thread!!. If a grappler gets to you and you dont knock him down you are dead meat!
Thanks for the video.

[GJEC]

If a grappler gets to you and you dont knock him down you are dead meat!


Meanwhile the grapplers thinking, "If I don't take him down he'll punch my lights out"

Everyone has fears

Gary

[Havamal]

reverse or lunge punch, reverse elbow, knee (hiza geri), and low kicks...

While MMA sparring, I can kept some BJJ MMA guys away for a bit until I got tired then thier head punches, thigh kick then grapple took me out. What I learned was that my kicks mainly stall for time until I can connect with a hard reverse punch. In self-defense, I feel good about my reverse elbow that I don't use in sparring.

I used to think kicks were most effective, but now I think reverse punch (and elbow) are the most convincing: keep up that "One 'punch' one kill" mindset be that it's karate, blade or bullets (mine are 44s, 45s, 308s).

"Penetration's key, both in war and in love," says Havamal, at your service.

[powerof0ne]

Honestly, I think it depends on what the striker's experience with grappling is and the grappler's experience with striking. I've seen so many strikers fail in the past in MMA because they put in hardly any grappling time so don't know how to counter grappling. I have seen grapplers get their butts handed to them because they have no idea how to strike, as well.

In MMA sparring I have more then held my own with BJJ brown and black belts if strikes are allowed but I'm also a purple belt in BJJ. I know if I never trained in grappling I wouldn't be able to hold my own against them. For me it's having a feel of what submissions to look for so I can avoid getting submitted, knowing what position I should get into so I can maximize my strikes, etc. The Muay Thai I trained in had us focus on throws and take downs from the clinch, catching kicks, etc and most real Muay Thai does do this which seems to flow good for me in MMA sparring. With that being said I should perhaps also spend some more time with some good Judoka again down the road...

I don't have a kyokushin kanji tattoo...yet, but I have a muangsurin 'muay thai' tattoo and not for one second regret it so I understand where you're coming from Eamon, makes perfect sense!
Osu!

[genosuke]

reverse or lunge punch, reverse elbow, knee (hiza geri), and low kicks...

While MMA sparring, I can kept some BJJ MMA guys away for a bit until I get tired then thier head punches, thigh kick then grapple takes me out. What I learned was that my kicks mainly stall for time until I can connect with a hard reverse punch, one of my bare knuckle face punch could be convincing (I thank Seido for that and reminds me to get that makiwara setup). In self-defense, I feel strong about my reverse elbow that I don't use in sparring. Sparring vs.fit and trained guys, low kicks (but not to the knee, not on purpose) are the best hope.

I used to think kicks were most effective, but now I think reverse punch (and elbow) are the most convincing: keep up that "One 'punch' one kill mindset" be that it's karate, blade or bullets (mine are 44s, 45s, 308s).



"Penetration's key, both in war and in love," says Havamal, at your service.

darn i love that line "one shot one kill" reminds me of .50 cal barett

[shidokanatlanta]

the videos show what happens when a karateka with no grappling experience faces a grappler in a fight. sure the karate fighter might land a blow and end the match. if not you have to be able to fight from the clinch and on the ground. the clinch can be forced on you. if you have no answer for it, it will end like in the videos.

[Havamal]

...having a feel of what submissions to look for so I can avoid getting submitted, knowing what position I should get into so I can maximize my strikes, etc.


...The Muay Thai I trained in had us focus on throws and take downs from the clinch, catching kicks, etc and most real Muay Thai does do this which seems to flow good for me in MMA sparring. With that being said I should perhaps also spend some more time with some good Judoka again down the road...

Osu!

That reminds me what that late dude, Sun Tsu, had said about the truth of knowing the enemy, blah blah,

Hmmmmm, some day I want to looking into how real Muay Thai can hurt me....

Being slammed by a good mean Judoka is scary: Need tough neck to survive, even on the mats.

Once I threw an instructor with a judo hip-throw, after catching his round kick, during Hapkido sparring: We both felt like smoking cigarette, :D

[Martin H]

There is no denying it. Against a good or decent grappler, a good striker without grappling skill is toast. In a 1-on-1 fight similar to a sport fight.
So what does that mean for street fighting? Well if you fight 1-on-1 unarmed that might be a problem. If you happen to face a grappler!
But what if it is not 1-on-1, would you still prefer good grappling if you face 2 or 3 opponents?
What if the opponent got a blade? Still interested in grappling?

I prefer standup for self defense. Ofcourse it is never good being ignorant of a fighting range, so everyone should learn at least basics. It is enough to face a normal opponent.And if you get some familiarity with grappling, it may not be so easy for a grappler to take you down as they expect.

[shidokanatlanta]

even if it's 2 or 3 on one. you still have to know how to grapple (if you get grabbed). karate has to incorporate grappling in the training on a regular basis and be able to adapt.

[Martin H]

even if it's 2 or 3 on one. you still have to know how to grapple (if you get grabbed). karate has to incorporate grappling in the training on a regular basis and be able to adapt.

Sure, as I said. It is not good to be ignorant about one fight-range. But if you put pure striking (karate) vs grappling (BJJ) you get the result that unarmed one on one grappling is better. but add more opponents and weapons and the last thing you want is to grapple.
Some grappling skill to be able to stay away from grappling, yes, but that is all.

This is why primitive/basic grappling used to be a part of karate in the old days. But was phazed out when karate became more competition rules focused.

"The karate that has been introduced to Tokyo is actually a single part of a larger whole. The fact that those who have learned karate in Tokyo think that it consists only of hand strikes and kicks, and that throws and joint locks are only a part of jujutsu or judo can only be attributed to their lack of awareness on this art. "
-Kenwa Mabuni, ca 1925,

[Mitch]

Here's a striker taking on a black belt in Judo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMbubF5z7GE

Now, obviously I have no idea whether the guy who gets slapped actually has any eperience in judo at all. He could have any amount of experience in anything but he never gets the opportunity to use it.

We can see that he has no experience in self protection and is set up by an experienced guy. His fence posture, set up and strike all confirm this.

That's why self protection is not an MMA match (though there is crossover) and why striking as a skillset works well for it.

Mitch

[GJEC]

Nice clip Mitch

(Cue Bananarama)

... it aint what you do it's the way that you do it
that's what gets results ...

Gary

[shidokanatlanta]

back to karate vs grappling arts. if you don't know how to grapple (street or sport), stuff like this will happen to you. if trained guys have a hard time stopping it, the karate guy (who does a little grappling and focuses on his stand up) will have a harder time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jBOOZvrZ5I

[Dent]

Osu!

That slap was heavy, and gravity then doubled it! That fella's head hit the ground very hard!

Outside of fun fighting, and out on the town, I believe that grappling training is necessary, vital even, but I am always surprised when the blade isn't taken into account. Maybe being stabbed has affected my perception, but I think that rushing in can be the last thing we do......

Osu!

[shidokanatlanta]

if i grab you or you grab me, knife or not, grappling is in effect. people don't know who has a knife or not. stuff happens. if your opponent has a knife and you get cut (and you can't get away or no weapon to use), you have no choice but to grab, clinch, etc. you gotta deal with that knife in his hand until it is out of his hand. you need to be able to grapple to do that (outside of a KO).

[Mitch]

I think from another point of view everyone ought to train some grappling because it's just so much fun! I helped re-establish my local judo club, some of my TKD students form the nucleus of it in fact.

I'd be training there myself if it wasn't for GJEC teaching Enshin on a Thursday :D

Mitch

[shidokanatlanta]

grappling is a natural progression of fighting. that's why you hear "Break" in combat sports that don't allow holding. when you get hit with a good shot or know that your opponent has a hard punch or a strong kick, your natural instinct is to stay out of reach or grab when in close. grappling training is necessary for the karateka.

[Thunar]

Here's a striker taking on a black belt in Judo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMbubF5z7GE

Now, obviously I have no idea whether the guy who gets slapped actually has any eperience in judo at all. He could have any amount of experience in anything but he never gets the opportunity to use it.

We can see that he has no experience in self protection and is set up by an experienced guy. His fence posture, set up and strike all confirm this.

That's why self protection is not an MMA match (though there is crossover) and why striking as a skillset works well for it.

Mitch

Excelent point Mitch:). Good answer to all those "UFC,MMA,and every fight goes to the ground" hysteria.........A good punch stills good, a good slap too.....as any other strike. You might be a Martial artist with 10 black belts in different styles (grappling, strikes,tradtional,"reality based..and so on)...........but if you are not used to fight (fight not do sparring ), you might get KO by a really angry dude that is determinated to take your head off from your shoulders.
Osu!

[senshido]

grappling training is necessary for the karateka

at what point does it then stop being karate... and become something else?

[GJEC]

Enshin still refers to itself as karate although it uses grabbing and throwing.

I'm old school though. If I grab someone it's to stop them running away while I unload on them, finishing with a few knees in the face. It's worked well for 40 years so I often wonder why people are at pains to point out the simplistic and flawed thinking behind it ...

Gary

[meguro]

at what point does it then stop being karate... and become something else?

I would look to the kihon and kata, karate's DNA. Granted, the grappling is seldom expressed, but surely technique such as hikite and enkei gyaku tsuki (not to mention all the bunkai) demonstrate a more well rounded karate than we see in knockdown kumite. After looking at what we do "in the air" look at arts where grabbing and grappling are involved (Enshin, Pencak Silat, Judo, etc.) and see how such air movements are applied against an opponent in your grasp. I think you will find that there is a lot more to karate than meets the eye.

[wullie]

Worked as a bouncer for 18 years and in that time never went to the ground with any of the fights I was involved in, IMHO you go to ground in the street and your opponents friends will start tap dancing on your skull.
OSU!

[shidokanatlanta]

it's hard enough fighting one person. you're not fighting multiple opponents who know how to fight (because you will get grabbed and taken down). if you are fighting multiple people (who can fight), you're gonna be running.

[netsecure]

Personally i prefer striking and Karate over grappling, my main emphasizes is and always has been karate and striking part. However, to improve and supplement my karate i will cover the base of grappling. But still not my primary area of training.

[eamoncramb]

If your going to compare mma to real fights then you have no idea what real fighting is!
Real fighting is 4 guys jumping you in a dark alley way with knifes. Not one guy going for a double leg take down.........

Osu!

[netsecure]

If your going to compare mma to real fights then you have no idea what real fighting is!
Real fighting is 4 guys jumping you in a dark alley way with knifes. Not one guy going for a double leg take down.........

Osu!

To be hoenst, MMA is the closest thign we have to real fights :).

Not even kyokushin comes close to the real fight as MMA does.

[GJEC]

I guess our experiences are all different, neither right nor wrong.

I've been involved in a few pitched battles, one example being two of us trying to eject about twelve from a club with glasses and bottles flying. This was a well-known crew that were definately not schoolboys but none tried to take us over, preferring to stand upright and throw things.

Of course this was long before MMA was even thought of. These days everyone assumes that anyone with a few grappling sessions under his belt will prevail against the striker, but I still maintain it's the relative degree of skill and experience in ones chosen method that makes the difference.

I know a bloke with a big right hook and a nasty temper that would make mincemeat of 99% of the martial artists and combat sportsmen I've ever met. That doesn't mean people with a good right hook win every time though, ONLY the ones who are extremely good at it.

Gary

[eamoncramb]

at what point does it then stop being karate... and become something else?


Bang on Senshido! :D

Thats exactly what i was trying to say in my last post but im terrible with words! :P

If we do clench work or some rolling then were no longer training karate? Karate is after all fighting, and fighting is fighting stand up or ground.

Osu!

To be hoenst, MMA is the closest thign we have to real fights :).

Not even kyokushin comes close to the real fight as MMA does.

MMA is fighting....with rules!

If a got taken down in a street fight and didnt know wat to do id be reaching for the hot sauce, id be bitting him and poking his eyes out!

Mmmmm wonder what human tastes like :rolleyes:

Osu!

[shidokanatlanta]

netsecure is correct in that mma is the closest thing to real fights. all combat sports give a little bit of realism because you can get hurt. mma doesn't mean that grappling is going to happen. it represents different possibilities that can happen, which means finding a weakness in your opponent. mma is just mixing of the arts in a different format than just striking or grappling. any martial arts training (regardless of style) has to have grappling in it to be effective in real fights. some of you keep throwing the edged weapon and mulitple attack scenario into the mix, but those are difficult regardless of one's training (even more so if you can't grapple). anything can happen in a fight. going to netsecure original intent of the post, karate vs grappling arts, grappling wins, of course when talking about the general understanding of modern karate training (and this depends on one's interpretation of a well rounded karate training).

[eamoncramb]

Ok to clear this up im confused are you reffering to :
-karate vs grappling in the cage
- or karate vs grappling in real life?

Osdu!

[powerof0ne]

The real fights I've been in didn't look much like an MMA fight but I don't remember many MMA fights where being fish hooked, bit, and eye gouging were allowed which have happened or been attempted on me in "real fights". I haven't trained in a MMA gym where biting, eye gouging, and fish hooking are really addressed much if at all but I have trained in some karate dojo where it is. Not saying one is better then the other because with the popularity of MMA (typically don't have to pay to fight MMA like you do in a karate tournament too) the best clay for the most part is going to MMA gyms to be molded, not to karate dojo. Some karate dojo don't charge much if at all but most charge something and I can't imagine to many lower income people in the USA being that active in a kyokushin organization traveling around the country and world competing...it's not free.

I have only been in one real fight that went to the ground and it is because I took it there but in playing devil's advocate I typically never got into real fights with people as far as I knew that were proficient at wrestling, judo, BJJ, etc. I've been in plenty of situations where somebody tries to "rush" me and tackle me to the ground and I kindly moved and guided them into a wall :cool: every chance I got.

There is a funny old saying that goes something like when two boxers get into a street fight with each other they both end up wrestling on the ground but if two wrestlers do they end up boxing each other. Just thought I'd throw that in here because I have seen some truth to it :).
Osu!

[FredInChina]

Dent's karate training includes throws and ground work...
Not that we could do a lot of it (because the shoulder :(), but enough to push me beyond my comfort zone in unfamiliar distances and have me revise my assumptions in a real hurry! :rolleyes:
I am very grateful for that. :)

There is no doubt in my mind that it was karate.

Osu!

[Havamal]

at what point does it then stop being karate... and become something else?

"The karate that has been introduced to Tokyo is actually a single part of a larger whole. The fact that those who have learned karate in Tokyo think that it consists only of hand strikes and kicks, and that throws and joint locks are only a part of jujutsu or judo can only be attributed to their lack of awareness on this art. "
-Kenwa Mabuni, ca 1925,

[Dent]

Osu!

if i grab you or you grab me, knife or not, grappling is in effect. people don't know who has a knife or not. stuff happens. if your opponent has a knife and you get cut (and you can't get away or no weapon to use), you have no choice but to grab, clinch, etc. you gotta deal with that knife in his hand until it is out of his hand. you need to be able to grapple to do that (outside of a KO).

Don't disagree with you here, just adding a different perspective. If a knife is in effect, closing the distance to grapple is a very bad idea. Unless your opponent is inclined to brandish it, you won't know about it until you're bleeding or worse. So I believe that closing as a first option is a bad one.

at what point does it then stop being karate... and become something else?

Ah! I think that grabbing and grappling have been around since the beginning of combat, and that the precursors to Karate in Ti, Toudi, Te, Kara-Te (China Hand) and into Karate as we know it.

What do the old characters for Kumi-Te translate to? Grapple Hand?

Makes me have a thunk! :)

Osu!

[shidokanatlanta]

most likely if face with a knife, you're gonna get cut, because the reality of knife defense is that you not likely to see the knife. if someone is trying to stab and you can't get away, you have to close the distance. also, we can't dictate a how to fight a knife because scenarios are theory. for every scare or injury i ever got, i didn't plan on 'em. when you get in fight, stuff just happens.

[powerof0ne]

most likely if face with a knife, you're gonna get cut, because the reality of knife defense is that you not likely to see the knife. if someone is trying to stab and you can't get away, you have to close the distance. also, we can't dictate a how to fight a knife because scenarios are theory. for every scare or injury i ever got, i didn't plan on 'em. when you get in fight, stuff just happens.
I agree and have the scars to prove it. I don't know how Steven Seagal makes it look so easy...
Osu!

[FredInChina]

Great post Dent, thank you. :)

@ ShidokanAtlanta... I understand you want to make a point there, and I think most people here agreed with you at one moment or another; however, it seems that not only you did not acknowledge them when they agreed with you, but more so that your point has either been made or got lost in your intense desire to be right.
I must say that I am slightly confused with the way you try to deliver your message. :confused:

Osu!

[GJEC]

It's hard not to get depressed sometimes. If I believed all the definates here:

Karate punching is weak

Slaps don't work

Grappling reigns supreme

Despite that I've never lost in a street brawl since I was in my teens. I've punched people out, slapped them purple and never been upended. (Although I have been glassed and stabbed)

Hard to know how I got away with it really ...

(Wonders off whistling)

Gary

[FredInChina]

http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/A_close_up_of_0.50_Caliber_%2812.7_mm%29_Browning_ Ball_M33_Ammunition_loaded_onto_a_Browning_M2_HB_0 .50_caliber_heavy_machine_.JPEG/330px-A_close_up_of_0.50_Caliber_%2812.7_mm%29_Browning_ Ball_M33_Ammunition_loaded_onto_a_Browning_M2_HB_0 .50_caliber_heavy_machine_.JPEG
There, have another one... :D

Osu!

[wullie]

it's hard enough fighting one person. you're not fighting multiple opponents who know how to fight (because you will get grabbed and taken down). if you are fighting multiple people (who can fight), you're gonna be running.
When your getting paid for a job you don't have the luxury of running.

It's hard not to get depressed sometimes. If I believed all the definates here:

Karate punching is weak

Slaps don't work

Grappling reigns supreme

Despite that I've never lost in a street brawl since I was in my teens. I've punched people out, slapped them purple and never been upended. (Although I have been glassed and stabbed)

Hard to know how I got away with it really ...

(Wonders off whistling)

Gary
OSU!

Senshido teaches throws and locks to us at his class as do I at my own class but not as part of the syllabus, and i'm all for grabbing to get a few in.

[shidokanatlanta]

sorry you feel that way fred. wullie, if you get jumped by multiple guys (that 1/2 way know what they're doing) you'd better run.

[jcc]

Hard to know how I got away with it really ...

Gary

Osu!

It´s obviously because Loughborough is full of big girls blouses! :p :D

Osu!

[GJEC]

It´s obviously because Loughborough is full of big girls blouses!

LOL

You're might be right jcc.

:)

Gary

[RJC]

Regarding fights I've witnessed and experienced in nightlife district of my city, the vast majority of instigators have not been the slightest bit interested in going to the ground. Alternatively, I find that when two people agree to fight each other in at a given time/location then it often goes to the ground. I've found that generally, people will only start groundwork if they have a sense that the environment is partly under control.

I train in bjj as well as karate, and I disagree with the original post in this thread. If you are going to ground, you CAN use Karate techniques which CAN help during the clinch and on the ground. Tetsui, nukite, hiji, and kicking out ferociously are things which can temporarily open the way for either escape or further striking; however, the nature of Karate demands a decisive and mortal intention, if you need effective stopping power.
Osu

[jcarmello]

Regarding fights I've witnessed and experienced in nightlife district of my city, the vast majority of instigators have not been the slightest bit interested in going to the ground. Alternatively, I find that when two people agree to fight each other in at a given time/location then it often goes to the ground. I've found that generally, people will only start groundwork if they have a sense that the environment is partly under control.

I train in bjj as well as karate, and I disagree with the original post in this thread. If you are going to ground, you CAN use Karate techniques which CAN help during the clinch and on the ground. Tetsui, nukite, hiji, and kicking out ferociously are things which can temporarily open the way for either escape or further striking; however, the nature of Karate demands a decisive and mortal intention, if you need effective stopping power.
Osu

Osu!! Well said!! Have some Rep RJC!!

[senshido]

apart from being bottled from behind I have never been on the ground in a real fight..

[FredInChina]

(...) being bottled from behind (...)
An experience you share with PO1 it seems...

:D

osu!

[RJC]

Hey thanks for that jcarmello.
As far as being bottled from behind goes, I know a doorman who wears a thick woolen hat because of such nasty surprises and it seems to work ok for him.

[senshido]

An experience you share with PO1 it seems...

:D

osu!

ROFLMAO...

thankfully mine was on the back of my head!! ;)

[wullie]

sorry you feel that way fred. wullie, if you get jumped by multiple guys (that 1/2 way know what they're doing) you'd better run.

Why? As I said if you are being paid running is NOT an option, anyway i'm not much of a runner.:cool:

Think we will agree to disagree.

[senshido]

Enshin still refers to itself as karate although it uses grabbing and throwing.

I'm old school though. If I grab someone it's to stop them running away while I unload on them, finishing with a few knees in the face. It's worked well for 40 years so I often wonder why people are at pains to point out the simplistic and flawed thinking behind it ...

would look to the kihon and kata, karate's DNA. Granted, the grappling is seldom expressed, but surely technique such as hikite and enkei gyaku tsuki (not to mention all the bunkai) demonstrate a more well rounded karate than we see in knockdown kumite. After looking at what we do "in the air" look at arts where grabbing and grappling are involved (Enshin, Pencak Silat, Judo, etc.) and see how such air movements are applied against an opponent in your grasp. I think you will find that there is a lot more to karate than meets the eye.


sorry guys... I wasnt knocking what we do, or saying we no longer do karate because we grapple etc....
I also teach some grabbing and locks... but I'm with Gary on the way we use them.. grab them to pummel them

[GJEC]

grab them to pummel them


Now we're talking. Don't go away from them, go through them.

Gary

[jcc]

grab them to pummel them

Now we're talking. Don't go away from them, go through them.

Gary

Osu!

Are we talking karate, or rugby here now? :confused: :D

Osu!

[GJEC]

Bit of both.

The myth is that William Webb Ellis invented Rugby when he picked up the ball ...

Not true

It was invented about five seconds later when some big lads pummelled him and said "Give us our ball back"

Gary

[netsecure]

I guess our experiences are all different, neither right nor wrong.

I've been involved in a few pitched battles, one example being two of us trying to eject about twelve from a club with glasses and bottles flying. This was a well-known crew that were definately not schoolboys but none tried to take us over, preferring to stand upright and throw things.

Of course this was long before MMA was even thought of. These days everyone assumes that anyone with a few grappling sessions under his belt will prevail against the striker, but I still maintain it's the relative degree of skill and experience in ones chosen method that makes the difference.

I know a bloke with a big right hook and a nasty temper that would make mincemeat of 99% of the martial artists and combat sportsmen I've ever met. That doesn't mean people with a good right hook win every time though, ONLY the ones who are extremely good at it.

Gary


Is MMA popular in UK?

I am not sure about where you lvie however here in USA, MMA has hit this part of the world like a plauge!. Here every other tom dick and harry has some amount of training in BJJ or jujutsu.
If you say martial arts here , people equate that with MMA or BJJ, the days of karate are long gone here.
Before coming to USA, honestly i didnt even know what MMA was. Where i came from martial arts are light years behind than western countries. Over there i was sure that Kyokushin and knockdown would suffice for any situation, because even something old as karate was pretty undeveloped there with very few trained in it.
If you got in a fight there, the idea of taking down on the ground and wreslting there wasnt even in existence. THe idea of a fight there was to punch each other with that big whooping blows to the face.


However over here in US with 230 pounds monsters who just train to fight by mixing and adopting different arts and who has completely put aside karate traditional stuff, it would be tough to say that a true karate master's technique with 30 years of experience would suffice against these fighters.

To be honest, i hate MMA. I am not a fan and dont advocate it and i am true kyokushin karate ka at heart. However, after getting more exposure to different arts i have to come to realize, that a karate ka cannot always rely on karate techniques to win, but should supplement with other forms of art as well.

[GJEC]

You're absolutely right.

These days I carry a stout stick ...

I have never claimed to be a karate 'master' or to have the answer to every situation. So far what I do has worked just fine but who knows, that might change.

Gary

[powerof0ne]

I've came across a lot of liars here in the USA that claim to have trained, and even say they're "cage fighters" but when I ask them very elementary questions of what gym do they train at and who their instructor is many of them can't give me a straight answer.

Typically, the ones that train don't brag about it to people outside their martial art "circle". In the last 4 years I have known more that claim to have trained MMA because they watch UFC, WEC, or TUF then actually train.

A friend of mine that I was training in CO sold a bunch of gear to this person I knew who didn't train...well this individual found out we would be training comes waltzing in covered in head to toe in MMA gear expecting to spar..even does a karate kid'esque kick on the wall. I didn't say anything and immediately packed up my stuff and left because 1. I was the one teaching 2. Can't stand posers. I didn't even take the time to spar him and beat him senseless because I knew he would tell people that he "trained with me"..shortly after I left the Army said poser gets caught with drugs and is now out of the Army (Karma does exist!).

I like the fact that MMA is popular and giving athletes that compete some money or starting to but I hate all the MMA posers that are now around :(.
Osu!

[netsecure]

Especially here in chicago, as the home of shidokan honbu and as we have two gracie official bara here, MMA is at peak, however in other part of USA it might be different.
I am sure in some part of the world even traditional style such as Shotokan, Goju etc would be still hyped.
But still if i got in a fight in USA, i wouldnt be utterly confident just from my kyokushin training...


You're absolutely right.


I have never claimed to be a karate 'master' or to have the answer to every situation.

I wasnt pointing you out gary :)

[GJEC]

LOL

I didn't think you were for a moment.

What seems to pass most people by though is that early karate here in the UK was very much 'anything goes' roughhouse fighting. Sweeps, grabbing, throwing etc (one of the reasons Enshin felt 'right' when I left Kyokushin) so I'm not totally inept at anything other than striking. Nor are most of the older karate-ka over here, come to think of it.

Gary

[powerof0ne]

Especially here in chicago, as the home of shidokan honbu and as we have two gracie official bara here, MMA is at peak, however in other part of USA it might be different.
I am sure in some part of the world even traditional style such as Shotokan, Goju etc would be still hyped.
But still if i got in a fight in USA, i wouldnt be utterly confident just from my kyokushin training...




I wasnt pointing you out gary :)
We have at least 5 Gracie Barra schools, Carlson Gracie school, Machado school, and other BJJ org schools around Seattle, AMC, Ivan Salaverry's school, and Maurice Smith still involved int raining people but still loooooooooooooooots of fakes that don't train or barely have. MMA is big around Seattle and was earlier then most other places in the USA.

Years ago while working at a club with my friend Rodrigo who owns one of the Gracie Barra schools in Seattle our mutual friend Joel comes in with Guto who's Juliano Prado's brother (Lotus JJ)...all of them are BJJ black belts mind you. We somehow run into a guy that lets us know he's a black belt in BJJ and trains in the Seattle area I was in shock because I knew the guy was full of it but my real BJJ black belt friends just laughed and said "that's great" even though they knew he wasn't, to this day, I'm surprised a fight didn't break out but my friends had nothing to prove, if only this fake guy knew he was talking to about half the BJJ black belts in WA at the time.

I imagine when "karate" was popular in the 70s there were lots of fakes claiming to know karate just like they're doing with MMA today.
Osu!

[netsecure]

I agree about the fake part, people usually train in a modern mma oriented art for a certain time and brag about it, or claim themslves to be masters.

However, one point i like to make is that martial arts has evolved considerably since 1970's and 1980's. People has put aside all the mysticism of every art and has just adopted the workable fighting core and combine it together.
Thus i have seen some people who just train for a year or two, but they only train how to fight, isntead of traditional stuff, meditation, kata, zen etc and win against black belts fighters who train karate as a whole.
Its not surprising even any one of those braggers of MMA or BJJ with only a year of training to beat a streotypical traditional karate masters who emphasize on kata and kihon.

Heck i would say even a powerlifter or a body builder with no martial art experience who is agressive enough and has had enough share of fights would be better in a street fight than an overweight dad who trains kihon, kata and kumite with family and has a black belt from a traditional knock down school.

[netsecure]

I found an article on shidokan website which was published in Black belt magazine sometime in 96 i believe.

http://www.shidokan.com/fullcontact.htm

Summarizes everything.

[wullie]

Heck i would say even a powerlifter or a body builder with no martial art experience who is agressive enough and has had enough share of fights would be better in a street fight than an overweight dad who trains kihon, kata and kumite with family and has a black belt from a traditional knock down school.

i've been going wrong somewhere! i'm an overweight dad who trains kihon, kata and kumite, only a brown belt though, i'd better go back and tell all the guys that i've thrown out of (and ko'd) pubs and clubs that there's been a mistake they should have beaten me! lol;)

[Dent]

Osu!

here in USA, MMA has hit this part of the world like a plauge!. Here every other tom dick and harry has some amount of training in BJJ or jujutsu.

Yes, and I'm actually grateful for it. Having them take striking out of their own gameplan is a plus.

i would say even a powerlifter or a body builder with no martial art experience who is agressive enough and has had enough share of fights would be better in a street fight than an overweight dad who trains kihon, kata and kumite with family and has a black belt from a traditional knock down school.

i've been going wrong somewhere! i'm an overweight dad who trains kihon, kata and kumite, only a brown belt though, i'd better go back and tell all the guys that i've thrown out of (and ko'd) pubs and clubs that there's been a mistake they should have beaten me! lol;)

I think Netsecure has a point here, Wullie. A large, powerful, aggressive individual with streetfighting experience is going to be a handful. For anyone. Thing is though, Netsecure, Karate isn't some sort of combination shield and silver bullet.

It's an edge. An edge you're going to appreciate the heck out of when you're out with your family and some guy like the one you've described gets irate. Your training may not enable you to knock his head off, but you shouldn't be so afraid that you can't act. Maybe you'll talk your way out. Maybe you'll see it in advance. Or maybe you'll surprise the heck out of him and panelbeat him senseless! ;)

Osu!

[wullie]

Osu!



Yes, and I'm actually grateful for it. Having them take striking out of their own gameplan is a plus.





I think Netsecure has a point here, Wullie. A large, powerful, aggressive individual with streetfighting experience is going to be a handful. For anyone. Thing is though, Netsecure, Karate isn't some sort of combination shield and silver bullet.

It's an edge. An edge you're going to appreciate the heck out of when you're out with your family and some guy like the one you've described gets irate. Your training may not enable you to knock his head off, but you shouldn't be so afraid that you can't act. Maybe you'll talk your way out. Maybe you'll see it in advance. Or maybe you'll surprise the heck out of him and panelbeat him senseless! ;)

Osu!

i know, just making a joke at the generalisation (though i am overweight at 260lbs lol!):o

[GJEC]

Those of us who have successfully applied our skills under pressure are understandably grinning a bit when lads half our age tell us it won't work ;):D

Every new generation thinks evolution makes all things better than before. Where fighting's concerned I disagree. There were plenty of extremely tough fighters in former times that could handle themselves very well indeed - long before MMA was invented. (One of my mentors was Brian Fitkin, I'd have loved to see people show him where he was going wrong)

In former times we had one tournament a year. If you wanted to test yourself you went to other clubs and styles, and if you wanted to earn a few bob you stood on a door. Stuff that didn't work was quickly exposed in both environments, then if you had half a brain you dropped the useless and plugged the gaps. You ended up with what worked for you, not what someone else thought would work better.

Gary

[wullie]

Those of us who have successfully applied our skills under pressure are understandably grinning a bit when lads half our age tell us it won't work ;):D

Every new generation thinks evolution makes all things better than before. Where fighting's concerned I disagree. There were plenty of extremely tough fighters in former times that could handle themselves very well indeed - long before MMA was invented. (One of my mentors was Brian Fitkin, I'd have loved to see people show him where he was going wrong)

In former times we had one tournament a year. If you wanted to test yourself you went to other clubs and styles, and if you wanted to earn a few bob you stood on a door. Stuff that didn't work was quickly exposed in both environments, then if you had half a brain you dropped the useless and plugged the gaps. You ended up with what worked for you, not what someone else thought would work better.

Gary
OSU! Well said!

[jcc]

Osu!

I wonder if it is a bit obvious to say that a lot of fights may go to the ground, but most actually start upright! ;) :)

Osu!

[Fedor]

Well its been proven since the early days of MMA i mean even before the 1st UFC in Vale Tudo and Pancrease that 9/10 times a pure grappler will beat a pure striker thats just a given it is so easy to take a guy down if you know what your doing and really difficult to keep a fight standing if you don't know how to grapple.

Your right you would need 1 hit KO power to beat a grappler if all you know is striking cause you wont get the chance to throw a 2nd strike.

As for previous comments i read regarding things like eye gouges, bites and groin attacks against a grappler when your on the ground sorry guys but that wont work. I know people with no grappling training think its possible to pull off those techniques but its not.

If ive got total control of your body what can u really do? can u bite me if im controlling the movement of your head no! Can you grab my groin while im controlling your torso and arms with my crotch and legs wrapped tightily around your waist? No Can you poke me in the eye when ive got full mount no your arm wont be long enough but
guess what i can poke your eyes from that position and i can bite you!

And as far as MMA compared to real fighting honestly MMA especially Pride rules is the closest thing to real fighting much more so than Karate rules realistically speaking Knockdown is nowhere near as close to real fighting as MMA is they dont even allow head punches!!!!! Much less clinch fighting like dirty boxing, elbows, knees, throws, trips, slams, suplex's and not to mention no ground game!

If you still don't belive pure grappling is better than pure striking watch Vale Tudo fights that was literally MMA with no rules they allowed every thing groin shots, eye gouges, headbutts, fish hooks, soccer kicks and stomps to downed opponents they didn't even wear gloves or mouth guards and grapplers still dominated strikers

[kanku]

i know, just making a joke at the generalisation (though i am overweight at 260lbs lol!):o

a mere slip of a lad!:D

[kanku]

Well its been proven since the early days of MMA i mean even before the 1st UFC in Vale Tudo and Pancrease that 9/10 times a pure grappler will beat a pure striker thats just a given it is so easy to take a guy down if you know what your doing and really difficult to keep a fight standing if you don't know how to grapple.

Your right you would need 1 hit KO power to beat a grappler if all you know is striking cause you wont get the chance to throw a 2nd strike.

As for previous comments i read regarding things like eye gouges, bites and groin attacks against a grappler when your on the ground sorry guys but that wont work. I know people with no grappling training think its possible to pull off those techniques but its not.

If ive got total control of your body what can u really do? can u bite me if im controlling the movement of your head no! Can you grab my groin while im controlling your torso and arms with my crotch and legs wrapped tightily around your waist? No Can you poke me in the eye when ive got full mount no your arm wont be long enough but
guess what i can poke your eyes from that position and i can bite you!

And as far as MMA compared to real fighting honestly MMA especially Pride rules is the closest thing to real fighting much more so than Karate rules realistically speaking Knockdown is nowhere near as close to real fighting as MMA is they dont even allow head punches!!!!! Much less clinch fighting like dirty boxing, elbows, knees, throws, trips, slams, suplex's and not to mention no ground game!

If you still don't belive pure grappling is better than pure striking watch Vale Tudo fights that was literally MMA with no rules they allowed every thing groin shots, eye gouges, headbutts, fish hooks, soccer kicks and stomps to downed opponents they didn't even wear gloves or mouth guards and grapplers still dominated strikers


what you have to consider is that 99 times out of a 100 you are not going to come up against an experienced ufc grappler in a pub....the vast majority of these people are mature human beings who realise fighting without a very good reason just doesn`t make sense..........you have to have a certain mentality and maturity to spend years in repetative training to get that good as with karate.....what point are you trying to make if you do this!?

so, excepting the fact that the "people" you are going to go up against are just drunken idiots, who can be dangerous with a glass or whatever in their hand, the best option is to strike, restrain and throw out.....you have obviously never worked a door or you wouldn`t even suggest going to ground...as Gary so rightly says, while you are rolling around on the floor you are a target for everybody, even people who are unrelated to the situation.

grappling and karate are two different discilplines and there is merit in both, this whole thread smacks of, "my dad can beat your dad up!"

also, if you have ever been to a knockdown tournament????...remeber how many hard seasoned fighters immediately hit the deck after being accidently hit in the throat....they are helpless when they are rolling around on the floor, karate teaches throat strikes...not used deliberately as Eamon said "when we are playing at knockdown" but still taught to be used in times of desperation.OSU-EN2

[GJEC]

Fedor & Netsecure

I'm not sure how many real fights you've had in this life, much less whether you've been paid to have real fights, but I honestly think you should refrain from making comparisons between sport and reality.

It does you no credit, it just shows a lack of understanding.

I used to think karate was everything and think my old mans basic military stuff was useless (just like the MMA crowd now view karate) Then I found out he'd killed people*. From then on it was "teach me everything you know".

You can't put an old head on young shoulders, but if you're bright you'll understand that nothing has all the answers so you have to find what works best for you and make it reliable under pressure.

Gary

* Legally during wartime.

[wullie]

Well its been proven since the early days of MMA i mean even before the 1st UFC in Vale Tudo and Pancrease that 9/10 times a pure grappler will beat a pure striker thats just a given it is so easy to take a guy down if you know what your doing and really difficult to keep a fight standing if you don't know how to grapple.

Your right you would need 1 hit KO power to beat a grappler if all you know is striking cause you wont get the chance to throw a 2nd strike.

As for previous comments i read regarding things like eye gouges, bites and groin attacks against a grappler when your on the ground sorry guys but that wont work. I know people with no grappling training think its possible to pull off those techniques but its not.

If ive got total control of your body what can u really do? can u bite me if im controlling the movement of your head no! Can you grab my groin while im controlling your torso and arms with my crotch and legs wrapped tightily around your waist? No Can you poke me in the eye when ive got full mount no your arm wont be long enough but
guess what i can poke your eyes from that position and i can bite you!

And as far as MMA compared to real fighting honestly MMA especially Pride rules is the closest thing to real fighting much more so than Karate rules realistically speaking Knockdown is nowhere near as close to real fighting as MMA is they dont even allow head punches!!!!! Much less clinch fighting like dirty boxing, elbows, knees, throws, trips, slams, suplex's and not to mention no ground game!

If you still don't belive pure grappling is better than pure striking watch Vale Tudo fights that was literally MMA with no rules they allowed every thing groin shots, eye gouges, headbutts, fish hooks, soccer kicks and stomps to downed opponents they didn't even wear gloves or mouth guards and grapplers still dominated strikers

Going by your posts on an other thread, how can you comment on real fights? Theory is great till the poop hits the fan, and that is where you find out what works for real.
OSU!
Kanku, i'm still practising lol!;):D

[Fedor]

what you have to consider is that 99 times out of a 100 you are not going to come up against an experienced ufc grappler in a pub....the vast majority of these people are mature human beings who realise fighting without a very good reason just doesn`t make sense..........you have to have a certain mentality and maturity to spend years in repetative training to get that good as with karate.....what point are you trying to make if you do this!?

so, excepting the fact that the "people" you are going to go up against are just drunken idiots, who can be dangerous with a glass or whatever in their hand, the best option is to strike, restrain and throw out.....you have obviously never worked a door or you wouldn`t even suggest going to ground...as Gary so rightly says, while you are rolling around on the floor you are a target for everybody, even people who are unrelated to the situation.

grappling and karate are two different discilplines and there is merit in both, this whole thread smacks of, "my dad can beat your dad up!"

also, if you have ever been to a knockdown tournament????...remeber how many hard seasoned fighters immediately hit the deck after being accidently hit in the throat....they are helpless when they are rolling around on the floor, karate teaches throat strikes...not used deliberately as Eamon said "when we are playing at knockdown" but still taught to be used in times of desperation.

Your misinterpretting my post and this thread TS didn't ask whats better for self defence against 3 drunken idiots on a friday night at the pub did he?

If that were the case then yeas i agree avoid the ground at all cost's and strike but thats not the point of this thread nor the point of my post!

I am simply answering his question regarding if a pure grappler is more likely to win a 1-1 fight with a pure striker and the answer is yes.

Im not refering to fighting multiply opponents or saying majority of guys who start street fights are olympic wrestlers.

Please see the context of my post before replying your on a completely diffrent subject then i am thanks

Oh P.S Grapplers can punch the throat also they just prefer to crush it with choke holds ;)

Fedor & Netsecure

I'm not sure how many real fights you've had in this life, much less whether you've been paid to have real fights, but I honestly think you should refrain from making comparisons between sport and reality.

It does you no credit, it just shows a lack of understanding.

Gary

To answer your question i have never been in a street fight unless you count school yard fights as street fights i don't

I have'nt been paid to fight in KB matches, street scenario's or to compete in TKD matches.

The only comparision im making between sport and reality is that MMA is more similair to street fighting then say boxing or karate as far as sports go! and that is perfect understanding on my part if you disagree name a combat sport which is more similiar to street fighting

Going by your posts on an other thread, how can you comment on real fights? Theory is great till the poop hits the fan, and that is where you find out what works for real.
OSU!
Kanku, i'm still practising lol!;):D

Again im not saying MMA is exactly the same as street fighting just that it has more in common with it then any other combat sport IMHO:)

[GJEC]

(Yawns)

if you disagree name a combat sport which is more similiar to street fighting


No combat SPORT is similar to street FIGHTING.

I'll say no more on this. Some things can only be learnt the hard way.

Gary

[wullie]

I hate to start this post, because i might sound like a UFC fan or something with no experience in knockdown karate etc. However yesterday, while taking a grappling class at my dojo, i started questioning karate practicality (either knockdown or traditional) against the grappling arts.
When you fight a wrestler or a grappler these guys usually are so fast and quick that they dont give you a single moment to even think of what to do.
They keep their distance from you so you wont have the opportunity to throw a technqiue and they close on you so fast, that you wouldnt even have time to throw a single punch or kick, even if you do manage to throw them a kick or punch if you dont knock them out with it, they wont give you a seconed chance because they come straight towards you to take you down and by the time they are at you close range to get your hands on you, you are dead meat there. They take you down on the ground, and there is not even a single karate technique you can really apply or do while on ground. You are just at the mercy of him to be choked or a limb broken.

My karate is the best in my dojo as comapred to other of my level, however i have no grappling experience.
Yesterday just for my own learning i took a MMA class, where you could throw techqniues to keep the opponent at bay and also do grappling. I did five rounds and was taken down every single time by an opponent with good grappling experience but whose striking(karate) is not good as me.

I started wondering if karate is really a match against grappling such as BJJ, Judo, Wrestling etc.
Out on the street a karate ka only chance of survival aggainst a wrestler or grappler would be to strike first and knock him out with that one strike, otherwise you wont get an other chance.

Your misinterpretting my post and this thread TS didn't ask whats better for self defence against 3 drunken idiots on a friday night at the pub did he?

If that were the case then yeas i agree avoid the ground at all cost's and strike but thats not the point of this thread nor the point of my post!

I am simply answering his question regarding if a pure grappler is more likely to win a 1-1 fight with a pure striker and the answer is yes.

Im not refering to fighting multiply opponents or saying majority of guys who start street fights are olympic wrestlers.

Please see the context of my post before replying your on a completely diffrent subject then i am thanks:)

Oh P.S Grapplers can punch the throat also they just prefer to crush it with choke holds ;)
try reading the first post yourself :cool:

[netsecure]

Please lets all stop fighting on this topic :D.

I understand i dont have much experience as many people over here have, but there would have been some point for the evolution of MMA and all these recent fighting rules. Rules evolved from semi contact to full contact to make it closer and realistic to real fighting, similarly now they have evolved more closer in the form of MMA.........

As the saying goes, anyone can beat anyone anyday......

[shidokanatlanta]

mma is the closest thing you'll get to real fighting. try a mixed rule fight, not just training and drills, but a match where striking and grappling are involved. where you have to stay on your feet and keep somebody from taking you down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDRa-_coS3M

[kanku]

the point i would like to make is this:

for reasons beyond my control (most of the time ) i have been involved in street fights, i spent nearly eight years learning kyokushin but not once have i kicked or kneed anybody( that i can remember ), not that i didn`t want to......when it all goes wrong your instinct takes over what i found was that the training made me slightly more prepared...like my knees didn`t turn to jelly and i knew what it felt like to take bare fist punches...this didn`t send my system into a frozen state of shock.......which happens to a lot of people......it`s a lot different fighting to rules, whatever they are, you have somebody to stop the fight if it gets out of hand....in the street you don`t..

i would also like to point out that i have had the **** kicked out of me in the past and i had his teeth marks on me for nearly a year afterwards, so i am not trying to make out i am some sort of "hard man" i`m not!!

just there is NO comparison between ANY form of training and the real thing.

i think it was Dent who said earlier.....just a SLIGHT edge....wise words

i would also like to point out Wullie is a kickboxing instructor, as well as being a brown belt at kyokushin, has done 100 fights in kyokushin, something many people aspire to and is a doorman..I.E somebody you don`t **** with who knows what he is talking about!;)

i don`t need to tell you about Gary!:)

[wullie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=5-kw1KBU2ps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=5kw1KBU2ps

Try a real fight, no rules!

Cheers, Kanku :o

[FredInChina]

and that one, a real real street fight! :rolleyes:
Looks pretty close to the WWF of old to me... :D

Osu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAZL-ugtOAM&NR=1

[shidokanatlanta]

mma resembles a real fight more than anything is what a couple of us are saying. no body said it's just like the real thing, but closet to it. like i said earlier, try a mixed rule fight were you can punched, kicked, kneed, slammed, choked, etc. try to stay on your feet and get back up and when somebody is trying to keep you down. you can't fight in real fight often, but you can do a combative sport more often. it is the most realistic way to test yourself.

[Dent]

Osu!

Well its been proven since the early days of MMA i mean even before the 1st UFC in Vale Tudo and Pancrease that 9/10 times a pure grappler will beat a pure striker

If you still don't belive pure grappling is better than pure striking watch Vale Tudo fights that was literally MMA with no rules they allowed every thing groin shots, eye gouges, headbutts, fish hooks, soccer kicks and stomps to downed opponents they didn't even wear gloves or mouth guards and grapplers still dominated strikers

Apples and oranges.

It all comes down to prospective environment. Sport vs not sport.

I can't post the photos or videos on here of the use of the blade. Some of you can do the searches yourselves. It's ugly. I always expect an assailant to be trained and armed. Always.

This does two things. One, it helps me to distance myself from momentary anger, and two, it gives me every motivation for the appropriate mindset. Sport is fun, and I still participate. I'll do any contact-based MA tourney (Although Judo is trying to drive away all the old players.), but I won't confuse that with self-protection.

Try a real fight, no rules!

Good video, Wullie! I reckon he's hit people before. ;)

mma resembles a real fight more than anything is what a couple of us are saying. no body said it's just like the real thing, but closet to it. like i said earlier, try a mixed rule fight were you can punched, kicked, kneed, slammed, choked, etc. try to stay on your feet and get back up and when somebody is trying to keep you down. you can't fight in real fight often, but you can do a combative sport more often. it is the most realistic way to test yourself.

It's a good way. As is throwing in blunt weapons and modified edged weapons. Very educational.

Osu!

[senshido]

mma resembles a real fight more than anything is what a couple of us are saying. no body said it's just like the real thing, but closet to it. like i said earlier,

its obviously a matter of where you have been brought up or live... I worked the doors in a dodgy area for years, there was probably between 2 - 6 "real" fights per night, a very small minority ended up on the ground (usually when some drunk tripped or fell over) almost all involved swing arms and legs... no chokes/takedowns etc,

I suppose in a country where college wrestling is a big thing this might be different???
but that's definately not here... its not taught at all!

even on a rugby field when a fight breaks out, (bearing in mind these guys spend the whole game trying to take each other down) its all swinging punches...

so in essence ... from a British point of view, when you guys say that MMA most resembles a real fight... I have to disagree... even when watching MMA/UFC; to me that doesnt resemble ANY real fight I've seen or been involved in.

Even the very few that have gone to the ground, have involved the aggressor standing trying to kicking the crap out of the unfortunate on the floor.

[shidokanatlanta]

not every fight ends up on the ground (including mma matches). we said mma is as close as it gets to a real match in combat sports. the mma guy has more practical experience doing what he's going to do in fight. for most karateka that is not the case. the karate guy who has no grappling experience loses because he doesn't know what to expect (as far as being taken down). the grappler knows that he's going to get hit and is mentally prepared for that. british or american is irrelevant. if you have no mixed art fight experience, then it's hard to argue. we can talk about our real fights at the door or anywhere else. go fight a full contact mixed rules fight a few times.

[wullie]

its obviously a matter of where you have been brought up or live... I worked the doors in a dodgy area for years, there was probably between 2 - 6 "real" fights per night, a very small minority ended up on the ground (usually when some drunk tripped or fell over) almost all involved swing arms and legs... no chokes/takedowns etc,

I suppose in a country where college wrestling is a big thing this might be different???
but that's definately not here... its not taught at all!

even on a rugby field when a fight breaks out, (bearing in mind these guys spend the whole game trying to take each other down) its all swinging punches...

so in essence ... from a British point of view, when you guys say that MMA most resembles a real fight... I have to disagree... even when watching MMA/UFC; to me that doesnt resemble ANY real fight I've seen or been involved in.

Even the very few that have gone to the ground, have involved the aggressor standing trying to kicking the crap out of the unfortunate on the floor.
well put, repped!

[senshido]

go fight a full contact mixed rules fight a few times. ??? just because I've not fought it in your back yard, please don't presume to know what I've done or not done

are you serious??? I repeat, its not even close to any real fight I've been involved in... until you have been in some real fights please don't presume too much...

I honestly think you live in a very small world and you know nothing about fighting outside of that "small world".... I now choose not to post in this thread any more

[FredInChina]

Repped Senshido, :)

For making your point clearly, then leaving the grounds :D to the obstinate... :)

Osu!

[shidokanatlanta]

senshido, you can dis the ring or cage. i can make assumptions because i've fought inside and out of the ring, extensively. personally i the original question is "karate vs. grappling" and it keeps getting twisted to something else in the posts on this topic. i say fight an mma or seriously train in it before saying what it is and isn't. it is an unpredictable testing ground for the martial artist. like i said in previous posts, when i match fighters for shidokan tournaments, it's few and far between that i get karate fighters. i get kickboxers and mma fighters more than anything and the karate guys rarely do well. like i said earlier, netsecure brought up this post from an experience he had in a mma class and from fights that we watched together.

[wullie]

senshido, you can dis the ring or cage. i can make assumptions because i've fought inside and out of the ring, extensively. personally i the original question is "karate vs. grappling" and it keeps getting twisted to something else in the posts on this topic. i say fight an mma or seriously train in it before saying what it is and isn't. it is an unpredictable testing ground for the martial artist. like i said in previous posts, when i match fighters for shidokan tournaments, it's few and far between that i get karate fighters. i get kickboxers and mma fighters more than anything and the karate guys rarely do well. like i said earlier, netsecure brought up this post from an experience he had in a mma class and from fights that we watched together.

Where has he 'dis' the ring or cage? Because we don't agree with you it's disrespecting sports we enjoy and watch? Take your head out your butt and have a look around. :mad::mad::mad:

[netsecure]

its obviously a matter of where you have been brought up or live... I worked the doors in a dodgy area for years, there was probably between 2 - 6 "real" fights per night, a very small minority ended up on the ground (usually when some drunk tripped or fell over) almost all involved swing arms and legs... no chokes/takedowns etc,

I suppose in a country where college wrestling is a big thing this might be different???
but that's definately not here... its not taught at all!

even on a rugby field when a fight breaks out, (bearing in mind these guys spend the whole game trying to take each other down) its all swinging punches...

so in essence ... from a British point of view, when you guys say that MMA most resembles a real fight... I have to disagree... even when watching MMA/UFC; to me that doesnt resemble ANY real fight I've seen or been involved in.

Even the very few that have gone to the ground, have involved the aggressor standing trying to kicking the crap out of the unfortunate on the floor.

Is MMA popular in UK?

I am not sure about where you lvie however here in USA, MMA has hit this part of the world like a plauge!. Here every other tom dick and harry has some amount of training in BJJ or jujutsu.
If you say martial arts here , people equate that with MMA or BJJ, the days of karate are long gone here.
Before coming to USA, honestly i didnt even know what MMA was. Where i came from martial arts are light years behind than western countries. Over there i was sure that Kyokushin and knockdown would suffice for any situation, because even something old as karate was pretty undeveloped there with very few trained in it.
If you got in a fight there, the idea of taking down on the ground and wreslting there wasnt even in existence. THe idea of a fight there was to punch each other with that big whooping blows to the face.


However over here in US with 230 pounds monsters who just train to fight by mixing and adopting different arts and who has completely put aside karate traditional stuff, it would be tough to say that a true karate master's technique with 30 years of experience would suffice against these fighters.

To be honest, i hate MMA. I am not a fan and dont advocate it and i am true kyokushin karate ka at heart. However, after getting more exposure to different arts i have to come to realize, that a karate ka cannot always rely on karate techniques to win, but should supplement with other forms of art as well.

This is exactly what i said!! If you read my post and senshido's they both say the same thing(why didnt i get any reps from Fred then? :( ).
Over here in USA college wrestling is learnt and a part of college just like mathematics or science is. (Atleast here in chicago)

I have yet to meet a single person who is an athelete and wasnt involved in wrestling or some form of grappling here in Chicago. This is exactly different from where i come.
Over there wrestling was not in existence.
A very tough black guy in my dojo (6 ft 240 pounds of pure muscle) started around the same time as me, as he had no martial arts experience he lacked technique. During sparring full contact bare knuckle all the black belts in our dojo was able to keep up with him, but still he gave everyone trouble with his agressive and dominant style and powerful blows, but still i say even the skiniest black belt was able to stick with him for the kumite.

One day we planned to do sparring with grappling allowed meaning you could punch kick and also take your opponent to the ground and hold him there until he submits.

I must say for all my being and i repeat MOST OF THE BLACK BELT GOT THEIR BUTT HANDED TO THEM BY THAT BLACK GUY. Especially those daddy type with no strength but only technique were the quickest to go down on ground and submit to him.
His strategy was simple he was so strong he would take all the blows and close on you so fast and muscle you down to the ground.
Only a couple of black belts in our dojo who have black belts in judo(We have a 3rd degree black belt in judo) was able to keep up with him for a long time and win over him. But all the shidokan guys who just know the basic minimum of grappling had a hard time against him.

This was the very first time i started doubting karate practicality against someone extremely agressive and powerful with grappling experience.

This guy is actually a very good friend of mine now however, he says he has been in street fights all his life, and was even locked up in cell when he was in early 20's. So someone agressive and powerful like him would give the karate ka a hard time on the street. He told me the basic strategy out on the street is to run towards the oponent and take down on the ground and start bombing with punches on the face which is very similar to MMA.

I think over here where il ive the definition of a street fight is ground work and wrsetling, if you say street fight people think of wrestling and ground work.

But just like senshido say it can be extremely different even if i go to 40 miles away from where i live, to another state or to a different country.

. like i said earlier, netsecure brought up this post from an experience he had in a mma class and from fights that we watched together.


Thats true!! We saw a kyokushin black belt loosing to a thai boxer with only a year of experience. We also saw a 2nd degree black belt got beaten and loosing in the first round by an extremely tough marine corp(all muscles) with strong grappling but no striking base.

I wouldnt diss what shidokan atlanta says, he is a very experienced triatholon competitor, he has had experience equally in bare knuckle, grappling and kick boxing. (Not to say taht other people here arent experienced but are mostly experienced in one form of combat(striking)).

I believe now thats its best if the mods close this thread, because it has became more of a brawling ground for people to fight in rather than something constructive coming out :)..

I didnt mean to offend any senior or experienced karate ka's with my posts here, but i just bought up what i experienced in my little karate life so far :)

[Dent]

Osu!

A very tough <SNIP> guy in my dojo (6 ft 240 pounds of pure muscle) <SNIP> he gave everyone trouble with his agressive and dominant style and powerful blows,

MOST OF THE BLACK BELT GOT THEIR BUTT HANDED TO THEM BY THAT <SNIP> GUY. Especially those daddy type with no strength but only technique

saw a 2nd degree black belt got beaten and loosing in the first round by an extremely tough marine corp(all muscles)

So larger and stronger aggressors were successful. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.................... :rolleyes:

Do you think that smaller and weaker grapplers would have had any more success?

Osu!

[Mitch]

As many are saying, the habitual Acts of Violence are culturally influenced. I have no idea what the figures for the states are, but I'd make a bet the % of headbuts used was much lower than in Scotland :)

You can look these things up in Govt stats if you care to take the time and do it. I can't remember the exact figures off the top of my head, but by far the most common HAOV in the UK in male on male violence is a right haymaker. As I remember it a shoot/grapple did not feature in any of the top 5 attacks, which covered over 90% of assaults recorded.

Where grappling did come in was in after the initial attack, once range had been closed.

Fights did not generally "go to ground" unless someone was knocked/fell over.

Those who work specifically in the self defence area (in the UK Geoff Thompson is well respected, amongst others) stress striking and a basic knowledge of essentially vertical grappling, usually judo or similar.

This is of course a different point than "Can a grappler beat a striker?" :)

Mitch

[shidokanatlanta]

wullie, i't's a shame that you got to resort to telling me to get my head out of my butt. apparently i've upset you. sorry dude! so, let's be a little more respectful in our posts. please. it's not that serious. now if you feel the need to insult me, contact me privately.

[wullie]

wullie, i't's a shame that you got to resort to telling me to get my head out of my butt. apparently i've upset you. sorry dude! so, let's be a little more respectful in our posts. please. it's not that serious. now if you feel the need to insult me, contact me privately.
you can have a go at me, but make wrong assumptions about my brother and it's a different matter entirely, and for the record it's not meant as an insult, just a general recommendation. now i've had enough of this thread and people who's ego's will not allow them to see the wood for the trees.
Osu-EN1

[netsecure]

you can have a go at me, but make wrong assumptions about my brother and it's a different matter entirely, and for the record it's not meant as an insult, just a general recommendation. now i've had enough of this thread and people who's ego's will not allow them to see the wood for the trees.
Osu-EN1

Thats rude you know!

Osu!



So larger and stronger aggressors were successful. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.................... :rolleyes:

Do you think that smaller and weaker grapplers would have had any more success?

Osu!

Hmmmmm??? :rolleyes:
Royce Gracie??? Ufc 1,2,3?

[Mitch]

...Yesterday just for my own learning i took a MMA class, where you could throw techqniues to keep the opponent at bay and also do grappling. I did five rounds and was taken down every single time by an opponent with good grappling experience but whose striking(karate) is not good as me.

Going back to the original post and just out of interest, were you allowed to do any strikes you wanted and at full force? Or were you only allowed limited contact?

Mitch

[netsecure]

full contact just like kyokushin

[shidokanatlanta]

like i said wullie. you go and fight an mma fight or mixed rule match. video it and post it. all your street fights and door man fights are just statements. i'm a show me kind of guy. like i said before, if you haven't done it, keep your mouth shut.

[netsecure]

like i said wullie. you go and fight an mma fight or mixed rule match. video it and post it. all your street fights and door man fights are just statements. i'm a show me kind of guy. like i said before, if you haven't done it, keep your mouth shut.

experience is a virtue!!
Repped!

[Mitch]

full contact just like kyokushin

But there's "full contact" and there's "dojo sparring" generally, and unless you were going all out it's not an equal contest. Did you try and knock the grapplers out? Did you have experience of fighting grapplers?

I don't mean that to rubbish grapplers, as I say I love judo and train in Enshin specifically because I think Karate is, at it's root, about grabbing people and hitting them. Sorry if that's heresy for some :)

More than that your post moved from this specific (I lost in an MMA set up vs grapplers) to the general (it made me question the usefulness of karate) which is why I think so much confusion and passionate debate has resulted.

Just some thoughts netsecure :)

Mitch

[shidokanatlanta]

i have the experience and i've backed it up a lot. i'm not just giving an opinion trying to upset anybody. i base it on facts. i was a fighter in more than one combative sport. i've promoted pro and amateur events and i match make for events. i know who will and won't fight. everybody's a tough guy. let me see you do it and then let's talk about it. it is a fact that 9 out of 10 times, the karate guy is going to lose (based on the original intent of this post) to the grappler. if that wasn't the case, i'd recruit a lot more karate guys to get out there and fight.

[Mitch]

i have the experience and i've backed it up a lot. i'm not just giving an opinion trying to upset anybody. i base it on facts. i was a fighter in more than one combative sport. i've promoted pro and amateur events and i match make for events. i know who will and won't fight. everybody's a tough guy. let me see you do it and then let's talk about it. it is a fact that 9 out of 10 times, the karate guy is going to lose (based on the original intent of this post) to the grappler. if that wasn't the case, i'd recruit a lot more karate guys to get out there and fight.

Sorry Shidokanatlanta, was that aimed at me or someone else?

Mitch

[netsecure]

i have the experience and i've backed it up a lot. i'm not just giving an opinion trying to upset anybody. i base it on facts. i was a fighter in more than one combative sport. i've promoted pro and amateur events and i match make for events. i know who will and won't fight. everybody's a tough guy. let me see you do it and then let's talk about it. it is a fact that 9 out of 10 times, the karate guy is going to lose (based on the original intent of this post) to the grappler. if that wasn't the case, i'd recruit a lot more karate guys to get out there and fight.

Those who know you, dont doubt your credibility :).

Sorry Shidokanatlanta, was that aimed at me or someone else?

Mitch

NO that wasnt aimed at you!

[shidokanatlanta]

sorry guys. i've really offended some folks. some have replied to me privately in a negative way. to those who have been offended by me, i apologize and will not reply back with more negativity, to my private messages or publicly on this forum. we have deviated from the original intent of netsure's original question. we are martial artists and we are too old to be insulting each other. OSU gentleman!

[Fedor]

try reading the first post yourself :cool:

What? I did it just pointed out 1-1 you just pointed that out!!!!!!!! Whats wrong with you?

Osu!



So larger and stronger aggressors were successful. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.................... :rolleyes:

Do you think that smaller and weaker grapplers would have had any more success?

Osu!

Yeah its a known fact grappling arts use technique to overcome bigger stronger attackers Helio Gracie built the whole BJJ system so that always weaker guys can beat stronger guys with ease



Hmmmmm??? :rolleyes:
Royce Gracie??? Ufc 1,2,3?

Exactly strength advanatges make it easy to overpower strikers but not grapplers;)

[DrPhil]

What a passionated thread!!!

Everybody knows that karateka with no grappling experience become very vulnerable if its adversary manages to grab him. It's common sense and there are tons of examples available. I think everybody agrees.

Starting from there, I think it's important to cross-train and have at least some grappling abilities. Unless:
- you're good enough to prevent any attacker from getting close to you
- you assume that people are not going to try to take you down
- you don't train for self-defense or with real life application in mind

To me, it doesn't make sense to spend so much time perfecting one part of the game, and having no clue about an other important part.

Then, whether grappling is more important or useful than striking is an endless debate.

[sandman]

I forget - are we supposed to debate the topic, or each other :confused:

;)

Onward!

[shidokanatlanta]

the topic. here's a classic video of gracie bjj against some style of karate guys who had no grappling ability.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-SltgKQHDU

[Dent]

Osu!

Yeah its a known fact grappling arts use technique to overcome bigger stronger attackers Helio Gracie built the whole BJJ system so that always weaker guys can beat stronger guys with ease

Exactly strength advanatges make it easy to overpower strikers but not grapplers;)

I guess striking arts are there for the bigger, stronger guy to have an advantage over smaller and weaker opponents........ :cool:

I've rolled with a fair number of guys. I'm trying to remember a single weaker guy that beat me with ease. I've definitely lost, but not to either a weaker guy, or with ease. (Unless you count a Judo Shiai where I was called in at the last moment. I'd been practicing free-grap, and when he turned in for Ippon Seio, I let him so I could take his back. Stupid mistake on my part, and I'm still kicking myself for it.)

As for your last comment, wow. Just wow.

Osu!

[bobh]

[...] the music on his website made me get up and shake my booty! [...]

Be careful not to loosen any of the hardware in there!
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9382/pelvis.jpg

[powerof0ne]

Be careful not to loosen any of the hardware in there!
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9382/pelvis.jpg
Already broken on one side ;). Was told a year or longer ago not to worry that it's "fine".
Osu!

[bobh]

i know, just making a joke at the generalisation (though i am overweight at 260lbs lol!):o


Perhaps a haircut is in order?
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3845/highlandcow.jpg

Wullie

[kanku]

like i said wullie. you go and fight an mma fight or mixed rule match. video it and post it. all your street fights and door man fights are just statements. i'm a show me kind of guy. like i said before, if you haven't done it, keep your mouth shut.

believe me he has done it and has nothing to prove to anybody anywhere! i am not related or affiliated to Wuliie or his organisations, however i have seen him in action and would be double happy if he was somewhere near me when it all goes wrong!!..........these are not statements just facts shodokanatlanta, i have no axe to grind with anybody, especially you but in fairness i just needed to set the record straight.

the season of peace and goodwill everybody, let`s keep it that way hey!?:)

[shidokanatlanta]

kanku, no need validate. we are over our squabble.

[kanku]

kanku, no need validate. we are over our squabble.

thanks:)

[wullie]

Perhaps a haircut is in order?
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3845/highlandcow.jpg

Wullie


Nah, it helps keep the cold out! lol!

[smoothsake]

Man this thread sucks... striking vs. grappling... geez, has K4L really stooped this low?

I would like to share this clip. Saw it on FB today from a BJJ friend of mine. Interesting how out of all the different fights breaking out in this video there isn't a single arm bar, choke, or tap out. I didn't even see a single fight going to the floor. Just shows that all those statistics that people throw around are all as mathmatically clear as mud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS9eER0afS0&feature=related

[Dent]

Osu!

Serious action there, SmoothSake.

I do see a lot of US-based one-on-one fights now seem to feature grappling. Interestingly, I think that it was a lot less common before the MMA boom.

Osu!

[netsecure]

Man this thread sucks... striking vs. grappling... geez, has K4L really stooped this low?

I would like to share this clip. Saw it on FB today from a BJJ friend of mine. Interesting how out of all the different fights breaking out in this video there isn't a single arm bar, choke, or tap out. I didn't even see a single fight going to the floor. Just shows that all those statistics that people throw around are all as mathmatically clear as mud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS9eER0afS0&feature=related

Then why bother posting on this thread?:)

[smoothsake]

Then why bother posting on this thread?:)

It's like watching a train wreck.

And yes Dent, the UFC and Gracie has def changed fighting in the US but as that dude in Texas proved, if you're going to grapple in a fast food restaurant please wear a belt!!

[Last_Empire]

rofl he only wanted a cheese burger!

[powerof0ne]

"That dude in Texas" is one of my friends on facebook. He's a pretty solid dude with his head on straight that's an Army vet going back to school full time named Joseph Guichebarou.
Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

as that dude in Texas proved, if you're going to grapple in a fast food restaurant please wear a belt!!

:eek: Holy memory resurrection, Batman! :D

"That dude in Texas" is one of my friends on facebook. He's a pretty solid dude with his head on straight that's an Army vet going back to school full time named Joseph Guichebarou.

Which one of the two, PowerofOne?

Osu!

[smoothsake]

"That dude in Texas" is one of my friends on facebook.

Wow small world. No disresepct to him; just saying he should wear a belt.

[powerof0ne]

Wow small world. No disresepct to him; just saying he should wear a belt.
He was the smaller one if you're talking about the whataburger video I think you are.

I forgot if the video was posted here and I'd repost it but there is a huge amount of swearing by the instigator in the video.

Also, I should use the term "friends" lightly; I looked him up because of the video and reading up on him and liked his attitude. I supported him for his actions actually so became "facebook friends". Not somebody I knew before the "infamous incident".
Osu!

[sandman]

He was the smaller one if you're talking about the whataburger video I think you are.

For clarity, it was the big fella that needed the belt. I don't believe smoothsake was dissing your guy, but the other one PO1 :)

[powerof0ne]

here's a recap on a radio talk show with both of them acting a bit more like adults:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbsbJByfmgU&feature=related
Osu!

[shidokanatlanta]

tough old bas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyXERDeMbKI&feature=related

a little extra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2JhhzYqaB8&feature=related

[meguro]

"I'm Bas Rutten, and I'm a professional spleen buster." Classic.

[harukaze]

Good ol' Bas. :D

[Fedor]

Osu!



I guess striking arts are there for the bigger, stronger guy to have an advantage over smaller and weaker opponents........ :cool:

I've rolled with a fair number of guys. I'm trying to remember a single weaker guy that beat me with ease. I've definitely lost, but not to either a weaker guy, or with ease. (Unless you count a Judo Shiai where I was called in at the last moment. I'd been practicing free-grap, and when he turned in for Ippon Seio, I let him so I could take his back. Stupid mistake on my part, and I'm still kicking myself for it.)

As for your last comment, wow. Just wow.

Osu!

Well your trained in grappling so that doesn't count if you got two Judo BB then clearly the smaller 1 isn't gonna dominate to larger 1 your not following what im saying.

I mean take for e.g you have a 145 pond tennage girl who is a BB in KK and she attacked by a 220 pound man in his 30's hell bent on raping her even though he has no martial art experince period he would probably win cause her strikes wont hurt him and he would only need to land 1 punch to KO her.

hence size > striking technique.

But exact same situatin except now the girls is a BJJ BB so she pulls guard lets him think she's submissive he then gets on top of her and what! she's controlling him :eek: and he cant power out because his all tied up now his defenceless and she will break bones. Only way she loses is if she attempts a triangle or guoilltine cause she sacrifices control to pull those off and he can slam her head off the ground.

Hence grappling technique > size

[FredInChina]

Osu Fedor,

My experience in grappling is fairly small, so take what I say as my personal opinion only; opinion that is bound to change as I get more hands on...

I find your assumptions a little bit shaky; if you allow me :):
- there should not be any teenage kyokushin or BJJ black belts... I know there are, but are they capable of defending themselves? I doubt it.
- A 145 pounds female kyokushin BB in her mid '20es from my dojo in the '80es knocked out 3 thugs that were bullying aged persons in the subway. Of course they were not grapplers, but they surely were larger than her and they were three.
- A rapist will likely choose another victim than a MA BB that won't display the body language of a victim.
- Your 220 pounds rapist indeed only needs one punch to KO the girl... however, he still needs to place that punch & that is not a given.
- I do not know much about rapists, but I think the moment someone offers a fierce and efficient resistance, most will likely move on to an easier target. IMHO, the first 2 minutes count most.
- From what I've experience, grappling with a weaker and/or smaller guy is easier than grappling with a monster that weights a ton... (I know, I've grappled with Dent! :D)
- 75 pounds difference with a teenage girl... I have my doubts that the BJJ BB will fill the gap... But, hey, maybe???
- You advance that the BJJ girl should go on the ground and be submissive to trick her opponent... For one, it will require her total self control to dare do that & who says he won't take that chance to place that one punch you mention and KO her at that moment?

Everyone can have a train of thoughts that appear to articulate logic and lead to clear cut conclusions... I am afraid, life is a bit more complex than you try to make it look...

osu!

[Mitch]

In one judo club I trained at there was a guy lower grade who weighed 24 stone. Even the BB's there hated doing groundwork with the guy because he would just squash you. That's part of why BJJ has weight classes the same as most combat sports.

BJJ rocks at groundwork. But combat sports are not Top Trumps. It's not as simple as, "My BJJ Groundwork 90%" beats your "Thumping folk 90%."

Training some grappling is a good idea, training grappling because you enjoy it is an even better idea, but training it because you think it will make you invincible is not.

As a personal plea can we please not go down the route of describing pre-emptively pulling guard as a legitimate self defence technique.

Mitch

[wullie]

Going to ground for self defence is possibly the worst thing you can do, why put yourself in a position where you can get stomped on and cut of avenues of escape? Rolling on pavement, broken ground, etc is sore and nothing like the mats at the dojo and as the others pointed out the size difference makes a huge difference, the 220 pound guy would only need to trip and fall on the girl for it to be over.

[GJEC]

I love all this X v Y stuff, but it's all fantasy.

The ability to prevail in trying circumstances is much, much more than relative skill levels in differing systems. It's more to do with something deep inside that just refuses to meekly submit and will do whatever it takes to prevail.

Here's the thing. A little old grandma armed with an umbrella might have the guts to stick it in a 220lb attackers eye, and a high grade in any system under the sun might fall apart and hide under a table.

We never know until we're tested. How people respond under stress - especially the never experienced before kind - is extremely hard to predict, no matter what they've got a black belt in ...

Gary

[wullie]

I love all this X v Y stuff, but it's all fantasy.

The ability to prevail in trying circumstances is much, much more than relative skill levels in differing systems. It's more to do with something deep inside that just refuses to meekly submit and will do whatever it takes to prevail.

Here's the thing. A little old grandma armed with an umbrella might have the guts to stick it in a 220lb attackers eye, and a high grade in any system under the sun might fall apart and hide under a table.

We never know until we're tested. How people respond under stress - especially the never experienced before kind - is extremely hard to predict, no matter what they've got a black belt in ...

Gary

Dead on GJEC! I've said it before, it's the person not the style that prevails!
OSU!

[GJEC]

Thanks Wullie

If training or life has developed the ability to keep a clear head under pressure, then the odds start to favour the well trained person.

If not, when panic takes hold all the tricks in the world mean nothing. Complex motor skills that took years to learn fall apart disappointingly quickly.

The biggest lunacy is believing that because Bas Rutten (or anyone else) can do something under pressure it means that everyone who studies their art will be the same.

Fantasy land.

Gary

[kanku]

Thanks Wullie

If training or life has developed the ability to keep a clear head under pressure, then the odds start to favour the well trained person.

If not, when panic takes hold all the tricks in the world mean nothing. Complex motor skills that took years to learn fall apart disappointingly quickly.

The biggest lunacy is believing that because Bas Rutten (or anyone else) can do something under pressure it means that everyone who studies their art will be the same.

Fantasy land.

Gary

just about sums all the c*** up and applies to a lot of threads:cool:

[FredInChina]

(...) c*** up (...)
c*** ??? :confused:
Could not figure that one out... :(

Osu!

[sandman]

c*** ??? :confused:
Could not figure that one out... :(

Osu!

Crap?

[kanku]

c*** ??? :confused:
Could not figure that one out... :(

Osu!

thomas crapper was the inventor of the w.c as we know it today, going to visit his invention got known as going for a "crap".....this word is now used by ill educated people like myself to describe something they dislike or find total b*******:D.......how`s things with you fred?:)

[FredInChina]

Crap?
Ahhhh --- Of course...
Thank you!
Osu!

(...) ...how`s things with you fred?
Thank you for asking kanku...
I am having a great time with Mrs InChina in the Alps :), then I'll be back in China for a while...
Battling injuries have become a way of life of late; but I'll get there... :(:)

You?
osu!

[bobh]

I love all this X v Y stuff, but it's all fantasy.

The ability to prevail in trying circumstances is much, much more than relative skill levels in differing systems. It's more to do with something deep inside that just refuses to meekly submit and will do whatever it takes to prevail.

Here's the thing. A little old grandma armed with an umbrella might have the guts to stick it in a 220lb attackers eye, and a high grade in any system under the sun might fall apart and hide under a table.

We never know until we're tested. How people respond under stress - especially the never experienced before kind - is extremely hard to predict, no matter what they've got a black belt in ...

Gary

QFT
:) Osu-EN1

[netsecure]

Thanks Wullie

If training or life has developed the ability to keep a clear head under pressure, then the odds start to favour the well trained person.

If not, when panic takes hold all the tricks in the world mean nothing. Complex motor skills that took years to learn fall apart disappointingly quickly.

The biggest lunacy is believing that because Bas Rutten (or anyone else) can do something under pressure it means that everyone who studies their art will be the same.

Fantasy land.

Gary


But i believe that with constant exposure to full contact kumite (which is similar to a real fight)pretty much everyone will develop the ability to work under panic in a real situation. Isnt that why we go full contact instead of semi or sports karate?

[Ros]

full contact kumite (which is similar to a real fight)

Firstly, (IMO) no it isn't and secondly, no it isn't.

[netsecure]

Firstly, (IMO) no it isn't and secondly, no it isn't.

i meant its more realistic than sports or non contact fights.

A little old grandma armed with an umbrella might have the guts to stick it in a 220lb attackers eye


Thats Jon Bluming dialoguee!!! :eek::D

[wullie]

But i believe that with constant exposure to full contact kumite (which is similar to a real fight)pretty much everyone will develop the ability to work under panic in a real situation. Isnt that why we go full contact instead of semi or sports karate?

Ros is correct, sport fighting in controlled environment is COMPLETELY different to being attacked on the street by someone intent on doing you severe harm and no referee to step in.

[netsecure]

Ros is correct, sport fighting in controlled environment is COMPLETELY different to being attacked on the street by someone intent on doing you severe harm and no referee to step in.

i meant its more realistic than sports or non contact fights. Osu-EN1

[sandman]

IMO, full contact fighting is a useful tool for preparing for the real thing, but it doesn't get you there all by itself. Probably you need to be tested in other ways as well.

Gary had a great thread a while back on the topic of "hitting the switch" - I don't have time to search for it at the moment, but there was some good stuff in there about training the TNS mindset you need to be able to get yourself into in order to get violent on your opponent in the street.

[GJEC]

Thanks Sandman

I fear that in this instance no amount of advice will hit the spot. People believe what they want - and what they hope for - and disregard things that don't reinforce those views.

I speak not just as a karate teacher/champion/doorman etc, but as someone who has seen people panic and lose the ability to think clearly in all manner of scary situations.

Gary

[netsecure]

what i meant was full contact fighting will prepare and train your mindset better for how to control a street fight under panic and adrelaine rushing better than sports karate.

[wullie]

what i meant was full contact fighting will prepare and train your mindset better for how to control a street fight under panic and adrelaine rushing better than sports karate.

Nope.

[GJEC]

what i meant was full contact fighting will prepare and train your mindset better for how to control a street fight under panic and adrelaine rushing better than sports karate.


I don't care how long people train or what grade they reach, no-one knows how they'll react until they're in those situations. Some cope really well despite never having trained in their life, some hide under tables despite being fierce in the dojo.

I don't expect you to believe me, as I mentioned on another post some lessons are best (and only) learnt the hard way.

What I do expect though is not to be corrected by someone who has never experienced the things they are talking about. I spent a career going towards things other people ran away from, so I think with all modesty I understand this quite well.

Gary

[wullie]

I don't care how long people train or what grade they reach, no-one knows how they'll react until they're in those situations. Some cope really well despite never having trained in their life, some hide under tables despite being fierce in the dojo.

I don't expect you to believe me, as I mentioned on another post some lessons are best (and only) learnt the hard way.

What I do expect though is not to be corrected by someone who has never experienced the things they are talking about. I spent a career going towards things other people ran away from, so I think with all modesty I understand this quite well.

Gary

Again dead on OSU!

[Dent]

Osu!

But i believe that with constant exposure to full contact kumite (which is similar to a real fight)pretty much everyone will develop the ability to work under panic in a real situation. Isnt that why we go full contact instead of semi or sports karate?

i meant its more realistic than sports or non contact fights.

what i meant was full contact fighting will prepare and train your mindset better for how to control a street fight under panic and adrelaine rushing better than sports karate.

I feel for you, Netsecure. I used to think that too. I even tried to convince myself of it in the face of some fairly vigorous evidence. Then reality jumped up and bit me on my mistaken bits. Not a nibble here or there, but a proper bite..

1) Rare is full contact fighting in any Dojo. Sure it may be rough and a bit hard, but few Dojo do full contact fighting.

2) Real fights happen when we aren't prepared. Unless you're the one looking for them, and that's another thread.

I don't care how long people train or what grade they reach, no-one knows how they'll react until they're in those situations. Some cope really well despite never having trained in their life, some hide under tables despite being fierce in the dojo.

And each situation is different. One of the best moments for me was realizing that I knew it was time to run. Middle of an ugly scrap, outnumbered by armed opponents and on foreign soil. Time to go! Not moving blindly, but moving fast.

Osu!

[wullie]

Osu!







I feel for you, Netsecure. I used to think that too. I even tried to convince myself of it in the face of some fairly vigorous evidence. Then reality jumped up and bit me on my mistaken bits. Not a nibble here or there, but a proper bite..

1) Rare is full contact fighting in any Dojo. Sure it may be rough and a bit hard, but few Dojo do full contact fighting.

2) Real fights happen when we aren't prepared. Unless you're the one looking for them, and that's another thread.

Osu!

Netsecue, I really hope that you take heed of what more experienced people are saying.

[Dent]

Osu!

Netsecue, I really hope that you take heed of what more experienced people are saying.

Wullie, after a deep breath and a large mug of tea :) I'm not as frustrated as I once was. Netsecure is asking questions, and whether or not he hears the answers is neither here nor there. I'm getting something out of the discussions, including the chance to sort out some of my own thoughts.

I'm also able to see so many people who I can feel pretty good about meeting and spending time with. A general lack of hot-headedness. :D

Osu!

[kakatootoshi]

Netsecue, I really hope that you take heed of what more experienced people are saying.

How dare you say that wullie!

I think you should show some real respect to Shihan/Kancho netscure as most of us agree he is an immense source of knowledge. According to Shihan/Kancho, he has watched a lot of Karate videos on youtube, owns most of the DVDs of Kazumi Hajime Shihan and read the biography of Nakamura Tadashi Kaicho and some others. Before Shihan has even fought his first tournament, he already is exchanging his ideas in Karate on internet discussion boards with people who spent a much longer time in Karate.

[GJEC]

Wow!

Here was me trying to be all diplomatic and kakatootoshi comes straight in with the whole nine yards!

Repped! (sorry - wouldn't let me)

Gary

PS Netsecure. Think of this as tough love.

[wullie]

How dare you say that wullie!

I think you should show some real respect to Shihan/Kancho netscure as most of us agree he is an immense source of knowledge. According to Shihan/Kancho, he has watched a lot of Karate videos on youtube, owns most of the DVDs of Kazumi Hajime Shihan and read the biography of Nakamura Tadashi Kaicho and some others. Before Shihan has even fought his first tournament, he already is exchanging his ideas in Karate on internet discussion boards with people who spent a much longer time in Karate.

My humblest apologies ;):D

[netsecure]

Wow!

Here was me trying to be all diplomatic and kakatootoshi comes straight in with the whole nine yards!

Repped! (sorry - wouldn't let me)

Gary

PS Netsecure. Think of this as tough love.

GJEC, How can you not expect my wannabe japanese daddy to step in to speak for me :D ;)


How dare you say that wullie!

I think you should show some real respect to Shihan/Kancho netscure as most of us agree he is an immense source of knowledge. According to Shihan/Kancho, he has watched a lot of Karate videos on youtube, owns most of the DVDs of Kazumi Hajime Shihan and read the biography of Nakamura Tadashi Kaicho and some others. Before Shihan has even fought his first tournament, he already is exchanging his ideas in Karate on internet discussion boards with people who spent a much longer time in Karate.

shihan? Kancho? :mad: I am kaicho, and apart from all these credentials you mentioned, i also yesterday took my first japanese class. So thats one more for you to show some respect

[Petey]

I find this thread interesting reading but I think theres a whole lot of misunderstanding going on earlier with regards to grappling v striking in real fights. Mainly because of the way people view fights.
The way I see it, there is a fight on the street. It is 1v1 and nobody has bought weapons to play. There are no friends for each side and if there are nobody intervenes. There are no sucker punches and people square off before fighting
This is the scenario MMA approximates best, a fair fight, albeit with eye gouging ect allowed. It is an arena in which grapplers will have more of an edge vs striking for various reasons already mentioned. However both strikers and grapplers will have massive advantage versus untrained fighters (in general).
There are no rules as such in the situation described above... but the situation is ideal, and you cant really expect it... Changing any one of the conditions described is bad news for the martial artist especially the grappler.
In situations that arent 1v1 going to the ground is obviously a bad idea, I would much rather choke from standing if I happened to be in that situation and I would prefer to strike over any grappling.
This is an often ignored aspect of grappling though; if you train grappling it will be more difficult for people to bring you down to the floor, espcially standing grappling.
For me some grappling is a great benefit and could be considered essential, however, striking is probably more important for pure self defence (this is coming from primarily a grappler).
Striking just has so much less commitment, you have much more mobility and options and is so much faster. Against multiple opponents its far more effective and its very useful to have a good punch to quickly stun to facilitate escape or incapacitating the opponent.
If a grappler was confronted by a striker in a no rules real fight my money would be on the grappler, however, same situation- trained versus untrained doesnt matter. But to have better chances of survival in more realistic street situations, multiple opponents, untrained can be reasonably assumed although not guaranteed, I would choose to be a striker.

Leaving this debate behind for a moment, I would like to touch on Gary's posts regarding how unexperienced people react in fights. I think this is probably more important than all Ive said above. By my own (very small) personal experience of being confronted several times and suckerpunched once, Ive found, by analysing my experiences that my responses were far from descisive, I am an extremely calm person when it comes to situations like this, but, despite this working ok for me so far (managing to face down aggressors or calm them down many times) I am not confident in my ability to fight when I REALLY need to.
I believe tough martial arts/combat sports can help this, but not remedy it. The only thing that could do that is real street fights, which is obviously not worthwhile.

I am not highly experienced in martial arts or fights, but please try not to judge my posts on this fact. I have read around very much and am good at analysing things like this, ironic, since in depth analysing is not something you really want when someones up in your face.
I feel Im not qualified enough to state the above as fact so I try to present it as merely thoughts on the subject, my opinions and reasoning.
Thanks for reading.
OSU

[kakatootoshi]

GJEC, How can you not expect my wannabe japanese daddy to step in to speak for me

shihan? Kancho? I am kaicho, and apart from all these credentials you mentioned, i also yesterday took my first japanese class. So thats one more for you to show some respect

It has nothing to do with race or nationally so you can skip that part Kaicho. To say someone a wannabe is an insult. And to say someone (trying to be) the daddy of netsecure is even more...:(. But I do not want to run the risk of disrepecting the real daddy of Kaicho, who has nothing to do with this). Next time you can also skip the wannabe part.

Are your ribs okay Kaicho netsecure? Have you finally managed to see the doctor or use the new medical technology (ice pack) to help ease the pain? You can find reference on youtube if you need it.:p

[netsecure]

I find this thread interesting reading but I think theres a whole lot of misunderstanding going on earlier with regards to grappling v striking in real fights. Mainly because of the way people view fights.
The way I see it, there is a fight on the street. It is 1v1 and nobody has bought weapons to play. There are no friends for each side and if there are nobody intervenes. There are no sucker punches and people square off before fighting
This is the scenario MMA approximates best, a fair fight, albeit with eye gouging ect allowed. It is an arena in which grapplers will have more of an edge vs striking for various reasons already mentioned. However both strikers and grapplers will have massive advantage versus untrained fighters (in general).
There are no rules as such in the situation described above... but the situation is ideal, and you cant really expect it... Changing any one of the conditions described is bad news for the martial artist especially the grappler.
In situations that arent 1v1 going to the ground is obviously a bad idea, I would much rather choke from standing if I happened to be in that situation and I would prefer to strike over any grappling.
This is an often ignored aspect of grappling though; if you train grappling it will be more difficult for people to bring you down to the floor, espcially standing grappling.
For me some grappling is a great benefit and could be considered essential, however, striking is probably more important for pure self defence (this is coming from primarily a grappler).
Striking just has so much less commitment, you have much more mobility and options and is so much faster. Against multiple opponents its far more effective and its very useful to have a good punch to quickly stun to facilitate escape or incapacitating the opponent.
If a grappler was confronted by a striker in a no rules real fight my money would be on the grappler, however, same situation- trained versus untrained doesnt matter. But to have better chances of survival in more realistic street situations, multiple opponents, untrained can be reasonably assumed although not guaranteed, I would choose to be a striker.

Leaving this debate behind for a moment, I would like to touch on Gary's posts regarding how unexperienced people react in fights. I think this is probably more important than all Ive said above. By my own (very small) personal experience of being confronted several times and suckerpunched once, Ive found, by analysing my experiences that my responses were far from descisive, I am an extremely calm person when it comes to situations like this, but, despite this working ok for me so far (managing to face down aggressors or calm them down many times) I am not confident in my ability to fight when I REALLY need to.
I believe tough martial arts/combat sports can help this, but not remedy it. The only thing that could do that is real street fights, which is obviously not worthwhile.

I am not highly experienced in martial arts or fights, but please try not to judge my posts on this fact. I have read around very much and am good at analysing things like this, ironic, since in depth analysing is not something you really want when someones up in your face.
I feel Im not qualified enough to state the above as fact so I try to present it as merely thoughts on the subject, my opinions and reasoning.
Thanks for reading.
OSU

Your comments will not be valued here when you got so many senior people around!! So just quitely read and take what the seniors preach :mad::o

[kakatootoshi]

I am not highly experienced in martial arts or fights, but please try not to judge my posts on this fact. I have read around very much and am good at analysing things like this, ironic, since in depth analysing is not something you really want when someones up in your face.
I feel Im not qualified enough to state the above as fact so I try to present it as merely thoughts on the subject, my opinions and reasoning.
Thanks for reading.
OSU

No worries, I think none of the negative (if any) comments are targeted against you. We judge people by ATTITUDE along the way, not only by experience.:)Some words are said here for a reason.

I have given you reputation for your post.

Your comments will not be valued here when you got so many senior people around!! So just quitely read and take what the seniors preach :mad::o

No worries Kaicho, I think most can tell the difference between a beginner who is willing to learn and a moron. And please do not drag new members into mud, it does not work. :)

[meguro]

I liked Petey's post. I think it raises the level of discourse on a topic that seems to be circling the drain.

[smoothsake]

Geez... talk about not listening. What's the point?

Netsecure, I'm afraid to break this to you but I don't think Kakatootoshi was being sarcastic to be funny, it was more an attempt (though failed) to show that you are lacking class and not showing respect to your senpai on this board. It's not something to be proud of and you won't make any friends here.

If you really want to prepare for a fight, may I suggest this club... it might be better than any dojo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agi8PUmlAKU

[FredInChina]

Very good post Petey, repped from me as well. :)
osu!

(...) shihan? Kancho? I am kaicho, and apart from all these credentials you mentioned, i also yesterday took my first japanese class. So thats one more for you to show some respect

Your comments will not be valued here when you got so many senior people around!! So just quitely read and take what the seniors preach

http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af67/FredInChina/Mics%20stuff%20posted/bsmeter.gif

Netsecure, at some moment, most people know when too much is too much...
:(

(...) most can tell the difference between a beginner (...) and a moron (...)
I regret I could not rep you KakatoOtoshi. :)
oooops, I actually could... please get some good reps there.
Osu!

[netsecure]

Wow! I am really trying it hard to understand why my sempai is getting all the praises and reps for calling me a moron when he just jumped out of the blue with all those funny sarcastic lines about me:rolleyes: I agree my contribution is not worthy other than lots of stupid questions, but i never ever made a implicaton that i know better than most people here,(other than just sharing my own experiences). And if my attitude suggested that in some way, than i am really sorry because i cant help it and it was unintentional.

Geez... talk about not listening. What's the point?

Netsecure, I'm afraid to break this to you but I don't think Kakatootoshi was being sarcastic to be funny, it was more an attempt (though failed) to show that you are lacking class and not showing respect to your senpai on this board. It's not something to be proud of and you won't make any friends here.
If you really want to prepare for a fight, may I suggest this club... it might be better than any dojo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agi8PUmlAKU

Point well taken! It would be just better off, if i invest my time to find friends and company elsewhere(preferably in person). So'ill do everyone a favor by shutting myself up for ever, which wont really matter to anyone(i hope), because i have been a pain in the butt mostly ;). And smoothsake please keep your nose out of those threads which according to you "sucks".

To Katatootoshi: I never intended any disrespect towards you. Your provocative scolding type manner and atittude with which you replied to 70% of what i always wrote as if i owe you something, might have generated some sarcasm from me, and for that i am sorry! :)

(Logged Out)

[Dent]

Osu!

A well thought out post, Petey. Repped!

Osu!

[FredInChina]

(...) hard to understand why my sempai is getting all the praises (...) my contribution is not worthy other than lots of stupid questions
Hummmm --- What is it you do not understand? :confused:
It is all there, by your own words. :)

osu!

[smoothsake]

Point well taken! It would be just better off, if i invest my time to find friends and company elsewhere(preferably in person). So'ill do everyone a favor by shutting myself up for ever, which wont really matter to anyone(i hope), because i have been a pain in the butt mostly ;). And smoothsake please keep your nose out of those threads which according to you "sucks".
(Logged Out)

Wow, don't I sound like the jerk of the day. Oh well, some things need to be said to keep the peace around here.

Don't fess netsecure, I'm sure you'll find another outlet. There's this new website called Facebook. All the rage apparently. You should check it out.

So.... anyone got any new Kyokushin videos to share or maybe a joke? :confused:

[GJEC]

Your comments will not be valued here when you got so many senior people around!! So just quitely read and take what the seniors preach

Says it all. Poor attitude there old boy.

Gary

[Dent]

Osu!

So.... anyone got any new Kyokushin videos to share or maybe a joke? :confused:

A joke here, then back on topic!

A man placed some flowers on the grave of his dearly departed mother and started
back toward his car when his attention was diverted to another man kneeling at a
grave.

The man seemed to be praying with profound intensity and kept repeating, Why did
you have to die? Why did you have to die?"

The first man approached him and said, "Sir, I don't wish to interfere with your
private grief, but this demonstration of pain is more than I've ever seen
before. For whom do you mourn so deeply? A child? A parent?"

The mourner took a moment to collect himself, then replied,
"My wife's first husband."

:D :D :D

Osu!

[GaryF]

Not bad Dent, unfortunately that's the only part of this thread I've read. It's bookmarked and waiting though, really need to go through this one!

[Kris]

Good job guys!

Who needs stupid kids on the forum that asks questions you do not agree with anyway, right? Let us work together to get rid of them all. Use all means to muscle them out; sarcasm, seniority or whatever necessary. I am sure that is the best way to keep the forum growing and stimulate interesting discussions.

(That was sarcasm, I do not mean what I wrote above, I mean the opposite. Sarcasm was used to make a point.)

[Fedor]

I find this thread interesting reading but I think theres a whole lot of misunderstanding going on earlier with regards to grappling v striking in real fights. Mainly because of the way people view fights.
The way I see it, there is a fight on the street. It is 1v1 and nobody has bought weapons to play. There are no friends for each side and if there are nobody intervenes. There are no sucker punches and people square off before fighting
This is the scenario MMA approximates best, a fair fight, albeit with eye gouging ect allowed. It is an arena in which grapplers will have more of an edge vs striking for various reasons already mentioned. However both strikers and grapplers will have massive advantage versus untrained fighters (in general).
There are no rules as such in the situation described above... but the situation is ideal, and you cant really expect it... Changing any one of the conditions described is bad news for the martial artist especially the grappler.
In situations that arent 1v1 going to the ground is obviously a bad idea, I would much rather choke from standing if I happened to be in that situation and I would prefer to strike over any grappling.
This is an often ignored aspect of grappling though; if you train grappling it will be more difficult for people to bring you down to the floor, espcially standing grappling.
For me some grappling is a great benefit and could be considered essential, however, striking is probably more important for pure self defence (this is coming from primarily a grappler).
Striking just has so much less commitment, you have much more mobility and options and is so much faster. Against multiple opponents its far more effective and its very useful to have a good punch to quickly stun to facilitate escape or incapacitating the opponent.
If a grappler was confronted by a striker in a no rules real fight my money would be on the grappler, however, same situation- trained versus untrained doesnt matter. But to have better chances of survival in more realistic street situations, multiple opponents, untrained can be reasonably assumed although not guaranteed, I would choose to be a striker.

OSU

Great post this is exactly the point i have been trying to make:)

[GJEC]

Who needs stupid kids on the forum that asks questions you do not agree with anyway, right? Let us work together to get rid of them all. Use all means to muscle them out; sarcasm, seniority or whatever necessary. I am sure that is the best way to keep the forum growing and stimulate interesting discussions.


Not sure if you've read all his posts Kris, but in the longer term I think calling him out on fantasy will be doing him a favour.

(Real) Fighting's a nasty business. If he's a dreamer in the dojo that's his own choice. If he then talks about using fantasy stuff for real someone needs to gently pull him back to earth before he gets himself hurt.

Gary

[wullie]

Good job guys!

Who needs stupid kids on the forum that asks questions you do not agree with anyway, right? Let us work together to get rid of them all. Use all means to muscle them out; sarcasm, seniority or whatever necessary. I am sure that is the best way to keep the forum growing and stimulate interesting discussions.

(That was sarcasm, I do not mean what I wrote above, I mean the opposite. Sarcasm was used to make a point.)

IMHO
It's very hard to take comments put out as fact by someone who hasn't been in the situations (by his own admission) and acts like a petulant child through this and other threads. He's not a 'kid' either. Then you have a well thought out post by Petey, I don't agree with opinions but repped him because it was intelligently put forward.
I do hope netsecure comes back with a more mature attitude.
Osu-EN1

[FredInChina]

Good job guys!

Who needs stupid kids on the forum that asks questions you do not agree with anyway, right? Let us work together to get rid of them all. Use all means to muscle them out; sarcasm, seniority or whatever necessary. I am sure that is the best way to keep the forum growing and stimulate interesting discussions.

(That was sarcasm, I do not mean what I wrote above, I mean the opposite. Sarcasm was used to make a point.)
Hummmmm Kris, I understand your reaction, but I don't think we ought to push people away; to the contrary, I believe we, as a community, must continue what K4L is about: contribute to creating a strong attraction to like minded people :); the rest will sort itself out fairly quickly without requiring energy expenditure.
The way I see it is that Netsecure asked many questions that were very respectfully answered by the community at first, often with a nudge towards a more reasonable/realistic position (away from fantasy)... He then came back again & again with the same questions and forced the answers to become more and more on the edge; At that moment, I believe he chose to isolate himself and went down a slightly provocative path that is not encouraged on K4L... :(
So he announced his departure; he was left with no other option, he probably knew at that moment that if he stayed without changing, he would have been pushed away! He'll learn a thing or two from the experience... :)
I believe netsecure, for all his shortcomings in communication was like minded & I trust he will be back a better person. :)

Osu!

[shidokanatlanta]

Can this thread be closed? I think we've left the topic of it a long while back and talking about Netsecure for pages is a little bit to much. If we feel we're mature and he's not, let's show it by not calling that. OSU.

[FredInChina]

Great post this is exactly the point i have been trying to make:)
That's great Fedor; indeed, there are a lot of good things to learn from the way Petey expresses his ideas and makes his point. :)

Osu!

[sandman]

I agree with ShidokanAtlanta.

The thread's dead baby - the thread's dead :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JzvO-SdZVK8

[Thunar]

the topic. here's a classic video of gracie bjj against some style of karate guys who had no grappling ability.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-SltgKQHDU

Good video Shidokanatlanta, but i would like to point something out here.

1) The Gracies fought a bunch of "nobodies" here in Brazil In fact in 90% of their fights they were the only ones that were trainning for a real fight, their opponents were so called "martial artists" that neve got in a fight in their life. They used to pick their oponents very well.

2) Funny coincidence, but no BJJ fighter ever showed in any kyokushin Dojo under Shihan Isobe here in Brazil during the 70's, 80's, 90's or even today to "chalenge one of the karatekas for a fight":D. They always were to some shotokan dojos were fight was not alowed, only katas and those point sparring fake fights.

3) I have some deep respect for BJJ, I like the sport, I'm a purple belt myself and I'm very proud of this brazilian contribution for the world of fighting..................however, I know from experience and good sources here in Brazil, that many of the Gracies so called victories and epic feats are nothing but bull and lies.

Well that's just my opinion....:)

Osu.

[vapor]

and closed it is.

vapor