Kancho Matsui explain...?

[dunknballer21]

I am a beginning practitioner of Kyokushin Karate. And before I started, I read up on all that I could about Kyokushin, and I was really gung-ho about starting. That was until I saw Matsui's "100 man kumite" on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopqMm14XMw

There are a few things that disturbed me after watching the clip. But I'll start with the biggest.

At around 3:12 into the clip, you will see Kancho Matsui closeline his opponent down with his forearm. And a couple seconds later, Matsui throws a kick to the head of his downed opponent while walking away.

These are clearly against the rules of Kyokushin sparring even in kumite. And it goes against the very spirit of karate and budo. It's disgraceful to see the head of Kyokushin act is such a way.

I've posted a comment about this on the YouTube site, but no one has come up with any excuses for Matsui. Indeed, I think his actions are inexcusable. Just because he was frustrated by one opponent does not mean that he can disgrace the name of Kyokushin like that.

A few other things I noticed that are disturbing:

1) Almost all of his opponents (out of reverance or fear) do not seem to be trying to fight him seriously. They hesitate and then throw one half-hearted kick which Kancho Matsui easily counters. If all 100 man kumite's are like that, I have confidence in taking it right now. But I know it's not. Because I have seen clips of other fighters' kumites. Matsui's opponents are laying down for him.

2) Kancho Matsui shows no leniency and respect towards his opponents (especially those that are smaller than him). It is my understanding that if I spar a lower level student or someone who is physically smaller and weaker than me, then I am not going to go full out and try to knock them out. I would work more on technique and pull some of my hits out of respect for my sparring partner/opponent. In the video clip, Kancho Matsui can be seen knocking the block off of an opponent who is clearly a child (his head barely reaches Kancho Matsui's chest). But instead of showing respect and some class, he roundhouse kicks the kid in the head as hard as he can. This is another disgraceful act in my opinion. We don't train to be bullies or thugs. We have respect towards our fellow man, especially our fellow practitioners. Kancho Matsui shows no mercy.

3) Kancho Matsui's techniques are terrible. In the clip, Kancho Matsui had two main techniques he had for "knocking down" his opponents. One was to grab the kicking leg and sweep the leg that they are standing on. And two was to simply grab his opponent and push him down. Again, it is my understanding from the training I've received and witnessed and the other competition footage that I've seen that there are certain rules against grabbing an opponent. The standard counter to a high roundhouse kick thrown by an opponent is to sweep the leg that he is standing on. But you're not allowed to grab the kicking leg. In several competition films, it can be clearly seen that the ref breaks up the fighters whenever one fighter grabs another's kicking leg. But in the clip of Matsui's kumite, you can see Matsui repeatedly "knock-down" his opponents by grabbing their kicking leg and pushing them over. The ref does nothing to stop this.

A 100 man kumite is supposed to test the fighter's abilities, spirit, and will. From the clip shown, it is my opinion that Kancho Matsui failed in all three. In fact, he disgraced the name of Kyokushin with his antics.

Lines removed due to Political Arguements, this is not a forum to start a flame war.

It is sad, but I am now having doubts about the art I had so much passion for because of this one man.

Perhaps you can explain to me where I am erring and how Kancho Matsui's actions are justifiable. Thanks.

Osu.

[kyokushin4life]

Welcome on board,
You are a student in IKO1, he is your Kancho. You shouldn't just call him sir name.
I have to edit a few lines of your post.

[dunknballer21]

My mistake. Thanks for correcting it.

[kyokushin4life]

My mistake. Thanks for correcting it.

Osu! dunknballer21 san, no worries. I edited the title as well since the title goes to the main page of the site. It;s not good.
Kancho Matsui was fighting in 80's, this also means that the fighting style was slightly different as himself has mentioned in one of his DVDs. Kyokushin style is changing..
The 100 men kumite didn't disappoint me, it was my very first time watching the kancho fighting. I was quite impressed with his joudan mawashigeris.
ill add more lines later as I have to go out. Osu!

[ojgsxr6]

Is Matsui really a Kancho? Isn't that title usually reserved for people who start their own styles as opposed to being appointed head of an organization ie Soke?

[Aunty Ichigeki]

Sorry, can't resist expressing an opinion...


At around 3:12 into the clip, you will see Kancho Matsui closeline his opponent down with his forearm. And a couple seconds later, Matsui throws a kick to the head of his downed opponent while walking away.

Clothesline? Are we talking about the same clip? I saw the opponent pushing/shoulder barging and Kancho slipping slideways & 'helping' the guy fall under his own weight & momentum. Nice. The kick was a non-event IMO, particularly in that era.

Almost all of his opponents (out of reverance or fear) do not seem to be trying to fight him seriously... Matsui's opponents are laying down for him.

My understanding is that Kancho was so far ahead of anybody at the time in terms of technique and particularly timing that his opponents were doing what they could in the circumstances... not much!

Kancho Matsui shows no leniency and respect towards his opponents

The 100 man kumite is undertaken by invitation only by the very best of Kyokushin practioners. It is not sparring (where you are absolutely right, you should show leniency), it is full contact! The opponents may be small but they are not unqualified for the task and it would be disrespectful to treat any one of them with complacancy.

Kancho Matsui's techniques are terrible.

What tha? Okay the grabbing was a part of Kyokushin at the time. Check out Daisukey's This is Kyokushin clip if you want to see how much the style has evolved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT8D2MOBl5s

It is sad, but I am now having doubts about the art I had so much passion for because of this one man.

I'd suggest the doubt is caused by your own perceptions. In my experience the first thing you should doubt when forming opinions (especially ones that make you sad) are your own perceptions! They're almost always the problem!

[sokaiya]

You'd have to understand the nature of Japanese people and regards to toughness. You'd have to understand that a man like Matsui, Filho, Andy Hug, Feitosa, Kazumi are of a different class of fighters. I'm not just singling them out but they're the most well known I could give examples of. Training at their levels, you'd understand why Matsui did what he did and you'd understand why it is allowed among them. 100-man kumite is a special event among the toughest. Matsui has to endure 100 fights and some of the senpai's often wait near the end, perfectly fresh to beat on you extra hard. Going hard is endearing respect. I dont understand how him being lenient shows any respect at all.

[dunknballer21]

Yes, as beginning practitioner to Kyokushin, my perception may not be clearest. That is why I posted this to get some responses and try and learn.

Thanks to everyone for their explanation. I can see that the style has changed since then, and I did not put that into consideration. Indeed if the rules were different back then, then I have nothing to complain about. Thank you for helping me out.

Osu.

[spanky11]

I actually kinda agree with some of dunknballer's commenys regarding Matsui's opponents...I have heard from many sources that most were lower grades (yellow belts and green belts) that were selected for the day. I do not see any of the real hard guys here - like Tadashi Nakamura, Midori, etc. in ths opponent lineup.

Perhaps Matsui did get a few beatdowns, but obviously these were cleverly edited out of the tape, before it was made for public sale.

Please note that I am by no means discrediting his abilities, or the mental toughness that are needed for the 100-man kumite, but the video does make it seem very 1-sided

[Bloke]

I also heard that some of Kancho Matsuis opponents were lower grades in brown and black belts but I have heard no proof to substantiate it. I accept the point about some of the bigger Kyokushin names (except Tadash Nakamura as he had longe left to form Seido Karate - But where was Kurosawa and Masuda).

All of that to one side I read an Interview with Kancho Matsui after the 100 man kumite and he apologised for some of his actions (he head butted one opponent) and said it was heat of the moment. He does throw an opponent at around 3.12 and follow up with a kick (hardly as hard as he can - in the 87 WT he knocked out Ibrahim Kamal of Iran with a jodan mawashi geri and broke his jaw - if it was the same strength to a downed opponent he would not have moved after). He certainly did some things he shouldnt have done but he is not unique in that - we are all human and all have failings. As for his technique - he is widely regarded in most groups as being one of the best technical fighters ever.

[spanky11]

I also heard that some of Kancho Matsuis opponents were lower grades in brown and black belts but I have heard no proof to substantiate it. I accept the point about some of the bigger Kyokushin names (except Tadash Nakamura as he had longe left to form Seido Karate - But where was Kurosawa and Masuda).

.

My apologies, I meant to say Makoto Nakamura...too much sake when I posted that..

I don't think that the kick done on 3.14 mins was anything too bad. I personally have done that myself once when I got a little overzealous in a grading.

[Bloke]

Spanky11

As I was writing that I was wondering if you meant Makoto Nakamura :)

[Sensation Black]

to the question of the bad technik:
imagine fighting 100 opponents one after another...after some time you wouldn't care less about the technik but just fight by your instincts.
and that is what one trains for all the years right? to be able to fight without thinking.

because what you really need to win a fight is the will and the power of the body you trained for years. then comes the technik.

[smoothsake]

I've seen the video too and was surprised to see some of Kancho Matsui's unorthodox moves, but the fact of the matter is I've never done a 100 man kumite so I'm not in a position to judge. Seeing that this kumite was performed in front of an audience of respected karateka yudansha, I humbly defer to their good judgement.

[Arjang]

After watching it I think it is there, clear as daylight, throwing a kick while the fight has stopped.
I thing that was fight number 36, by that stage I think people can be excused for not being on their best behaviour, as Sensation Black mentioned, the intincts take over the principals.
Maybe there are many nice people, who do hold on to their principles, who do try to what they believe is right. But poeple should never be judged based on what they do in an extreme situation. Imagine he can Not ask for a break, or take a few days off to continue with rest of the matches. That oponent was giving him grief. So, I guess yes, what he does is disrescpectfull, but at that stage he has 60 more fights to go through.

100 man kumite is torturous and grinding. The expected result is not to win , but to endure it.

As for his oponents lying down for him, who wouldn't?, knowing what he has to endure you would try to take it easy on him, after all this is not a tournement fight. Although I think 100 man kumite is an irrationale,illogical, grinidng, torturouse and a completely pointless task, I have respect for anyone who even tries a 50 man kumite.
He maybe just throws kick at the guy, but just wonder as to what would you be doing in his position.
Regards To all

[RASor]

Osu,

A 100 man kumite is not an easy task. Sosai Masutatsu Oyama established this voluntary test to reveal the quality of Budo, discipline and endurance of the fighter.

Kancho Matsui I am sure had to call upon all his training experience, physical stamina, and mental faculties just to overcome and succeed. Definitely this is not an easy task.

In the case of Sensei Francisco Filho's 100 man kumite, he despite his excellent strategy, started to show signs of fatigue falling down once or twice from 'fist blows/kicks'.

It is easy to judge a fighter and his style of fighting as a viewer especially since we do not undergo the mental and physical ordeal a fighter faces in actual combat/fight.

Still my hats off to Kancho Shokei Matsui, Sensei Francisco Filho & of course Sensei Hajime Kaizume (hopefully his website will have english translation).

Osu!

[Bloke]

As for his oponents lying down for him, who wouldn't?, knowing what he has to endure you would try to take it easy on him, after all this is not a tournement fight. Although I think 100 man kumite is an irrationale,illogical, grinidng, torturouse and a completely pointless task, I have respect for anyone who even tries a 50 man kumite.
He maybe just throws kick at the guy, but just wonder as to what would you be doing in his position.
Regards To all

I dont agree that his opponents would take it easy on him. I have seen Kumite tests in the UK and never saw anyone go easy on the fighter. He or she wants to earn it not be given it by someone taking it easy. I have seen fighters repalced in the line up as they were going too easy and that fight discounted from the total.

[Sonik]

I saw the video it if they were not going easy then they were very weak opponents. And by the time he did thist test, the rules were not that different from what they are today. Nevertheless, it's still a huge test to a man's physical endurance and fighting spirit.

[spanky11]

I dont agree that his opponents would take it easy on him. I have seen Kumite tests in the UK and never saw anyone go easy on the fighter. He or she wants to earn it not be given it by someone taking it easy. I have seen fighters repalced in the line up as they were going too easy and that fight discounted from the total.

agree 110% on this.

It is the same in Australia. Fighters are removed if theya re not making the person earn theiur grading.

It does appear that Matsui's opponents were not really pushing him (again, it can be the editing of the tape though)

[Bloke]

In fairness I do agree that most of his opponents in that HL clip dont seem to be giving him a very hard time. Whatever the reason for this its still a very tough test.

[Lonewolf]

OSU! The time period does have alot to do with the fighting style. At that time, 14 years had gone by without anyone being successful in the "100 Man Kumite", even Sanpei and M. Nakamura both failed in their attemts. Sanpei was successful years later in his second try though. But, my point is, there was alot of pressue on Kancho Matsui to succeed in his "100 Man Kumite". People have to be there to understand, or go through it themselves. When Soshu Shigeru Oyama did his "100 Man Kumite" in 1966, he said he punched his first 20 opponents in the face as hard as he could, with several collapsing in pools of blood. He went on to say that maybe that was a bad thing to do, but after he saw the shocked looks on the remaining fighter's faces, he knew that was the right thing to do. If Kancho Matsui had done that, everyone would have freaked out. So, alot has to do with the time period you're in. The "100 Man Kumite" is an ultimate survival test, not a casual Kumite with fellow Dojo mates. The main thing that is tested is your will to fight under these extreme conditions without giving up. OSU!

[smoothsake]

Yes, as beginning practitioner to Kyokushin, my perception may not be clearest. That is why I posted this to get some responses and try and learn.

Thanks to everyone for their explanation. I can see that the style has changed since then, and I did not put that into consideration. Indeed if the rules were different back then, then I have nothing to complain about. Thank you for helping me out.

Osu.

I would recommend that you try and remove your vulgar comments of Kancho Matsui from the Youtube website. It is disrespectful for an IKO1 karateka to speak of your Kancho that way. Osu!

[Bloke]

Smoothsake is right about the youtube comments. Remember that we are Kyokushin and remember the Dojo Kun:

"We will observe the rules of courtesy, respect our superiors and refrain from violence."

You are right to question things but please do so with courtesy and respect.

[RASor]

Osu,

Respect begets respect. You cannot buy respect. Regardless of any form of Martial Art a matured practitioner will always show respect to whoever leads, even to the lowliest practitioner.

Kancho Matsui is Kancho. There are those of us who may differ from his approach in the Martial Way but he is still Kancho. I for one would stand before him in his defense.

Osu!

[Iwaks]

i'm quite shocked that someone who is just starting out in Kyokushin is insulting Matsui san's technique (!) and kumite style (!!!!). No one would care if someone was discussing the politics and the split, etc etc. but for someone who doesn't know anything to disrespect his kancho! wow. this thread should be closed.

maybe you are just used to McDojo gentle karate...

[Arjang]

i'm quite shocked that someone who is just starting out in Kyokushin is insulting Matsui san's technique (!) and kumite style (!!!!). No one would care if someone was discussing the politics and the split, etc etc. but for someone who doesn't know anything to disrespect his kancho! wow. this thread should be closed.

maybe you are just used to McDojo gentle karate...

What is there to know? Was the oponent down ? yes, did he got a kick in the face ? yes.
kancho or non kancho it doesnt matter, no body is beyond questioning.
That old philosphy of revering some head figure unquestionably belongs to middle ages.
Sure what he does is questionable, but it is also defendable.
To mock someone for their questions is disrespectfull.
BTW: He obviously knows enough to wonder wether that is standard behaviour expected from a respectable Karate Ka.

Regards

[Arjang]

... When Soshu Shigeru Oyama did his "100 Man Kumite" in 1966, he said he punched his first 20 opponents in the face as hard as he could, with several collapsing in pools of blood. He went on to say that maybe that was a bad thing to do, but after he saw the shocked looks on the remaining fighter's faces, he knew that was the right thing to do. ....

Wow!?
Was ever punching in the face part of the rules? Bad thing to do but he knew it was the Right thing to do in what respect?

I thought 100 man kumite was a test of self endurance not a test of intimidating others.

I am suprised the remaining fighters did not reciprocate the compliment, see how many times one can endure being punched in the face as hard as possible and collapsing in his own pool of blood.
Why stop at punching the oponent in the face? Why not gauge their eyes while at it? Bet the other fighters would have not only be shocked but completely horrified! No one in their right mind would fight by the rules against someone who breaks them as he sees fit.

This is suppose to be a martial art, not the art of winning at any cost to others.

How could anyone call it a fighting discipline when they show no restraints in using their power? An idealogy of intimidating oponents by violence rather than using good quality techniques belongs to baboons and lower primates, not a disciplined fighter.

If the only way to endure a 100 man kumite is to do what you belive to be bad by one's own principals, guess we are back before the caveman era, as the caveman didn't know about good and bad.
Or maybe the very notion of 100 man kumite needs re-examination? If one needs to find their own limits of endurance, why they need to measure themselves at expense of others?

Regards

[spanky11]

i'm quite shocked that someone who is just starting out in Kyokushin is insulting Matsui san's technique (!) and kumite style (!!!!). No one would care if someone was discussing the politics and the split, etc etc. but for someone who doesn't know anything to disrespect his kancho! wow. this thread should be closed.

maybe you are just used to McDojo gentle karate...

actually i think its good that a "newbie" questions things like this.

Its always good to get an outsiders opinion on things with fresh eyes.

[smoothsake]

kancho or non kancho it doesnt matter, no body is beyond questioning.

I agree, but to call him an a**hole in a public forum?!? I don't think one justifies the other. It is one thing to question, it is another thing to insult your accepted leader. If he doesn't like Kancho Matsui to the level that he has to resort to vulgar comments, then he should quit. We won't miss him. Osu!

[ibuki]

the thread should be closed!

[spanky11]

the thread should be closed!

I disagree.

We seem to put these leaders on such a high pedestal.

It is good to see some criticism (for a change)

[ichigeki31]

i agree with both smoothsake and ibuki ,i love our kancho just the way he is ,and by the way they are kept on a high pedastel becoz of their accomplishments and i dont care which orginisation you are from a kancho is never someone to be criticised they should be treated with respect that is the way of kyokushin and i suggest this thread be closed because i dont think any IKO-1 students here appreciate the way our kancho is being treated here if you dont like it plz keep it respectful otherwise just leave osu!!!!!

[Bloke]

It is true that no one should be above criticism. When I started training we were told that if an instructor makes a mistake in class it is not right or acceptable to bring it to everyones attention during the class - rather out of respect approach them after and let them know privately.

On a public internet forum its very easy to just say what you feel as there will be little real repercussions. By all means question Kancho Matsui's actions but do it in a respectful way. I dont think this thread should be closed - this is an excellent forum - the original poster claims that Kancho Matsui was wrong to do what he did. So was the person who called him names. Lets educate people not censor them.

[ichigeki31]

hehehehe,you are a very kind bloke BLOKE, OSU!!!!!!!!!

[RASor]

Osu,

I agree with criticism (i.e., constructive criticism).

"I may not agree with what you have said but I would defend your right to say it to the death".

However such rights of Free Speech are not absolute. Speech must observe the norms and mores of civilized men and should not extend into the realm of slander, such as calling my Kancho an "A**hole" goes below civility.:mad:

One's ability to express himself without being offensive is characteristic of an educated man.:rolleyes:

Lest we delve in the realm of the animal and be like one let us place ourselves into the shoes of our reader before we let out words demeaning and hurtful. "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you" (the Golden Rule) in another more positive way "if you can give a punch you must also be able to take one" (the Way of Kyokushinkai).:eek:

Just a piece of my mind.

Osu.

[spanky11]

agree on the last 3 posts.

the original poster seems to made this a personal attack, rather than doing it with respect.

I think the larger issue here is that Matsui's opponents went a little light on him. Kancho's technique is sublime, but he seemed to not have been physically challenged too much by them.

[Iwaks]

sorry if i came across as offensive or disrespectful. was not my intention to be that way. i also was not trying to put him on a pedestal and say everything he does is great. just that shoving and kicking as ppl are going down (or down for that matter) happens

[Martin H]

This thread is closed.
It is getting out of hand, and I suspect new post will not bring any new information but only raise a lot of emotions.