The Bolivian Cholitas

[seienchin]

This is an amazing story - I was totally unaware of these amazing, strong women, who are stepping into the professional wrestling world. Fully garbed in skirts, with long plaits and cardigans, they engage in every move you would expect to see in normal wrestling, and apparently, the crowds "Really like it when they beat a man"??:eek:

So here, at least, it seems that people are very accepting of women in a fighting art, even though they only started breaking down this barrier 10 years ago.

the full video below:
http://youtu.be/ZiKD9aeDqf0

[GJEC]

Errrr

(Types cautiously)

It's not REAL Seienchin.

I don't see mixed wrestling in the Olympics anytime soon.

Gary

[kanku]

Seasons greetings Ms Bear!!

Although i have to admit these women are strong etc.....these sort of fights/bouts are about as rehearsed as your average pantomime and if they were to beat a man it`s because it`s pre-arranged?



tttssssttttt, boooooooo, oh no it`s not!!??:D

watch out!!....he`s behind you!!!!!:D

ps Gary posted while i was typing

[seienchin]

Seasons greetings Ms Bear!!

Although i have to admit these women are strong etc.....these sort of fights/bouts are about as rehearsed as your average pantomime and if they were to beat a man it`s because it`s pre-arranged?



tttssssttttt, boooooooo, oh no it`s not!!??:D

watch out!!....he`s behind you!!!!!:D

ps Gary posted while i was typing

LOL - yeah, I do get it, but that's what makes it an even more nuanced statement about their social mores...., it's the fact that the crowds "love it" - so the "pre-arranged" result is even more anthropologically interesting. My point being, it's socially acceptable, in a society where women are nowhere near legal equality, and men are prepared to go into a bout where it's arranged that they'll lose against a woman. I just thought it put a whole different slant on the issue.

[kanku]

LOL - yeah, I do get it, but that's what makes it an even more nuanced statement about their social mores...., it's the fact that the crowds "love it" - so the "pre-arranged" result is even more anthropologically interesting. My point being, it's socially acceptable, in a society where women are nowhere near legal equality, and men are prepared to go into a bout where it's arranged that they'll lose against a woman. I just thought it put a whole different slant on the issue.

From a social point of view i think the men see this as a sort of Bolivian pole dancing, with sexual undertones?....just a cavemans point of view but this would make an interesting discussion of views in a "classroom"

[GJEC]

men are prepared to go into a bout where it's arranged that they'll lose against a woman

In a country that's dirt poor? You bet!

I must admit I found the clip amusing, but that's a long way from equality in combat.

Gary

[Decadent~!]

It's like that in Mexican lucha also.

Japanese puroresu used to have an unwritten rule where men do not sell attacks from the women workers even if she is a legend in the business etc. Promotions like HUSTLE have made that more (moray) less prevalent.

I honestly think the Martial Arts world craps on Pro Wrestling more now than it did in the 1970s when Freddie Blassie was one of the guys on a cover of Black Belt (well as a co-feature). To me pro-wrestling is like gohon kumite or Aikido randori where two or more people cooperatively perform an exhibition of techniques and counter-techniques together (except for money).

I love it when some of my Wing Chun buddies tell me how fake pro wrestling is and how they can destroy dozens of people in street fights :-D

[Thunar]

It`s amazing the way that those poor people from those latin american exotic countries can be entretaining to the civilized countries citizens.....:(
It`s so exotic.....poor people doing staged stuff in the middle of the jungle because they have nothing to eat.....begging from tourists.......It`s all very interesting...let`s study those primitive litle things.....:(
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................................I` m being sarcastic by the way...:mad:

[seienchin]

Thunar - I take it from your comments that you didn't watch the video - it is incredibly positive about the Women, their communities, and the efforts of the Bolivian government to improve the circumstances of the indigenous population, and as a subset of that, the women.

It demonstrates the positive shift in education levels, as young girls are attending school, and shows how the Cholitas are tackling the systemic discrimination of lower pay and refusal of access to medical treatment for management of their fight-acquired injuries.

It is easy for the West to sit back and think that poorer nations are basket-cases, and that women there are oppressed, powerless and weak. This story shows a group of women who are challenging the stereotypes, and what is anthropologically interesting to me, is the difference with which Bolivia has embraced them, compared with, eg how women in my country still endure ridicule for wanting to fight. There are anthropological observations on both sides of that contrast.

And I suspect that people who wrote that they found it "amusing" or "like pole dancing" - maybe didn't actually watch the vid either, or didnt' see anything other than the in-ring antics. It's long - 15 min, so didn't really expect people to watch, but watching the sexual innuendo come out so fast was also an interesting exercise in anthropology....:rolleyes:


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Off-topic posts have been quarantined. Thanks to the member who drew them to my attention. OSU-EN2t

[jcbel]

I read about this a while back in Nat Geo:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/09/wrestlers/guillermoprieto-text

[seienchin]

Thanks for posting. I am reassured to read that the men DON'T watch just for a chance to see the Cholita's (very modest) undies!

No matter what you think about the merit of the "fighting", it sounds like everyone is having a good time (except maybe an injured fighter....)

[Brad]

Osu,

I think it is great! I actually enjoy a good hard fight where women are fighting.
i remember back in 2001 when their was two girls in there twenties fought in a mauy thai fight. They had great form/technique,
it was a title fight, but never the less it was still great entertainment and the crowed was going wild! I am all for it. I am all for it:) did i say that twice lol?

[Thunar]

Thunar - I take it from your comments that you didn't watch the video - it is incredibly positive about the Women, their communities, and the efforts of the Bolivian government to improve the circumstances of the indigenous population, and as a subset of that, the women.

It demonstrates the positive shift in education levels, as young girls are attending school, and shows how the Cholitas are tackling the systemic discrimination of lower pay and refusal of access to medical treatment for management of their fight-acquired injuries.

It is easy for the West to sit back and think that poorer nations are basket-cases, and that women there are oppressed, powerless and weak. This story shows a group of women who are challenging the stereotypes, and what is anthropologically interesting to me, is the difference with which Bolivia has embraced them, compared with, eg how women in my country still endure ridicule for wanting to fight. There are anthropological observations on both sides of that contrast.

And I suspect that people who wrote that they found it "amusing" or "like pole dancing" - maybe didn't actually watch the vid either, or didnt' see anything other than the in-ring antics. It's long - 15 min, so didn't really expect people to watch, but watching the sexual innuendo come out so fast was also an interesting exercise in anthropology....:rolleyes:


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Off-topic posts have been quarantined. Thanks to the member who drew them to my attention. OSU-EN2t


I did watch...and that is the very reason I said how ìnteresting`those primitive people from those primitive countries are....It is because I am one of those primitive people that live in one of those primitive countries...............
And I keep my opinion.....I do not like the Idea of people being studied as aliens.......it is very degrading........
But....you have the right to have your own opinion.....I respect that.:)

[seienchin]

I did watch...and that is the very reason I said how ìnteresting`those primitive people from those primitive countries are....It is because I am one of those primitive people that live in one of those primitive countries...............
And I keep my opinion.....I do not like the Idea of people being studied as aliens.......it is very degrading........
But....you have the right to have your own opinion.....I respect that.:)

I really appreciate your perspective. I am a chronic observer of humanity - everywhere. I find human behaviour, mores and norms and endless source of fascination, and that is not confined to other cultures. I do find it interesting, and a source for reflection, that even respectful observation can be genuinely felt as a patronising put-down. I don't doubt you - something has hit a raw nerve, and I apologise for any offence.

Just so you know - exactly the same story could easily be run about female fighters in my country, the only difference would be the background setting. The issues are very similar, because by and large, fighting for money is not something that the wealthy do in wealthy countries. It is generally (but not always) something that people use as a way to escape poverty. youngsters from disadvantaged backgrounds are over-represented in the ranks of pro fighters.

Thanks for helping me see this through your eyes.

[powerof0ne]

From skimming over the video what I see is Women in a Male dominated society doing what they have to do, to try and make a living for themselves and their family. I also see that it's gaining more popularity and may "open doors" for them to get other jobs that Women in that society are typically not allowed to have...and hopefully get the pay that Men get.

Most people in the world can take it upon themselves to change their environment and opportunities. This is why I'm a "radical" compared to many Americans and don't get offended by those that gain illegal entry into the USA...if I was in their shoes, I'd probably do the same damn thing! Some of us are born into an ideal environmental and don't have to struggle, but most people in the world do have to struggle. I sometimes wonder those that don't have to struggle even understand life, and what making your own way in the world even means.

I'm not a fan of choreographed fighting, myself, but many people are, including my girlfriend who got me go with her to a professional wrestling match this past year. I'm sure part of the appeal to her watching Men's professional wrestling is how muscular some of the Men are...last I knew, she wasn't a huge fan of the Women professional wrestlers so I'm not surprised many of the Men in this video are fans of the Women professional wrestlers!
Osu!

[GJEC]

And I suspect that people who wrote that they found it "amusing" or "like pole dancing" - maybe didn't actually watch the vid either, or didnt' see anything other than the in-ring antics. It's long - 15 min, so didn't really expect people to watch, but watching the sexual innuendo come out so fast was also an interesting exercise in anthropology....:rolleyes:


http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/web/misc/k4l_moderator_note.gif

Off-topic posts have been quarantined. Thanks to the member who drew them to my attention. OSU-EN2t

:rolleyes:

It would obviously make life / K4L / moderating easier if we all saw the same thing in everything, but life would be pretty dull.

Gary

[Janus]

:rolleyes:

It would obviously make life / K4L / moderating easier if we all saw the same thing in everything, but life would be pretty dull.

Gary

Osu,


I believe arguing with a moderator wearing his official cap on is a very, very bad idea that bears consequences! :mad:
We've been there before, this is disappointing! :(


Osu!

[seienchin]

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/web/misc/k4l_moderator_note.gif

Actually, Gary, let's have the full truth out here. After you PMd me in response to Janus' post, I suggested you edit your post to remove the quote of the Moderator Content, because I genuinely thoguht you were arguing with that part of my post which was fair game - the non moderator content. I was attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt.

we introduced the Moderator Icon and coloured text to remove role confusion. The moderators have absolutely no problem with people arguing the TOPIC, as long as they stay within forum rules.

Arguing with Moderator posts is simply not permitted. Arguing with moderators who attempt to enforce this is simply not permitted.

as you have now made it clear that it was your intent to argue the moderator content, benefit of the doubt is now gone, and that is a clear rule infraction which will be considered and acted upon in due course.

Kanku, thanks for the vote of confidence, but Admins are like Moderators. if you want to argue, take it (respectfully) to PM, not on the boards.

This thread, regrettably, is now closed.