Mushin Vs. Fudoshin [Archive]

chen3141

10-12-2007, 04:33 AM

What is exactly mushin and fudoshin (zanshin and shoshin are much easier to interpret)

(Wiki)
Mushin-Mushin is achieved when a fighter feels no anger, fear or ego during combat. There is an absence of discursive thought, and so the fighter is totally free to act and react towards an opponent without hesitation. At this point, a person relies not on what they think should be the next move, but what is felt intuitively. Mind of no Mind

Fudoshin: A spirit of unshakable calm and determination, courage without recklessness, rooted stability in both mental and physical realms. Like a willow tree, powerful roots deep in the ground and a soft yielding resistance against the winds that blow through it. Immovable heart

Mushin I'm pretty sure is the reaction of the fighter. How all techniques should be thrown without thought. All blocks performed without consciousness and countered freely.

Fudoshin is a little harder. I think its the fight of spirit. Willingness to fight without seeking it.

Any better definitions?

kakatootoshi

10-12-2007, 05:03 AM

Dear chen3141,
Do not trust these Wikipedia articles for religious/spiritual ideas.

Fudoshin for me is simply what it literally means "immovable heart".
It is as simple as that. It is not something that can be categorised or put under a microscope.

And why be obsessed with the difference between "fudoshin" and "mushin"?
If you have understood "mushin", then there is nothing in "you", there is nothing to be moved or affected and is it not the same as "mushin"?

OSU!

sublimo

10-12-2007, 06:32 AM

You have to watch the face off top Japanese fighters. Matsui (especially), Midori, Kazumi fought like that. Watch the face. There are almost no emotions while fighting. The one who knows this the best is Sihan Royama. He studies taikiken a lots. His nick name was called mao kyokushin by Sosai. Because off his way off thinking. He learns taikiken under Kenichi Sawai. Mushin is one off the many thinks you can learn from taikiken and the way off the samurai. There is a book that I m reading, about the way off the samurai. Not to learn how to fight physically or for exiting stories, but to understand the mind off top Japanese fighters. Mushin and other interesting topics are explain in the book. How more you read that book how more questions how more you are going to think.

In fighting you can use mushin. It really works. I like to fight mushin based. But it is very difficult if the fight is high level. If sparring you can use it more easy. In tournament it is very hard to use it. But if you can it is a big advantage.

But beware that kyokushin is an other style than taikiken. You may (must) learn more about taikiken but it may not effect your kyokushin style to much. There are persons who goes to far whit mixing taikiken in their kyokushin style. the kyokushin style chance by way off that. That is not good. (in my opinion) But who am I to judge...

seienchin

10-12-2007, 06:46 AM

But at the end of the day, the real value comes when you can use these states of mind and strength in every part of what you do, so that they define your personality and approach to life. A tournament fight comes and goes. You win, you are champion until somebody beats you. But if tournament fighting or other training actually results in you BEING like this, as you breathe and live..WOW.. We are none of us quite so perfect, I think, but I know what I am aiming for. :)

Bloke

10-12-2007, 07:44 AM

Beautifully put Seienchin - id give you some rep but I need to spread it around first.

sublimo

10-12-2007, 09:29 AM

seienchin

10-12-2007, 09:32 AM

:o
thanks guys. No poet, but just really aware that the gifts I have gained from karate have changed the course of my life.
OSU-EN2

chen3141

10-12-2007, 11:45 PM

(The quotes I use are part of Gichin Funakoshi's precepts unless otherwise stated)

Well, the reason I'm curious is the development of -do. The spirituality aspect of karate is just as interesting as the physical. (incorporation of zen yadda yadda yadda) "The art of developing the mind is more important than the art of applying technique."

seienchin put it perfectly as you "Apply the way of Karate to all things. Therein lies its beauty." and "Transform everything into Karate; therein lies its exquisiteness." of course "Do not think Karate belongs only in the dojo."

I understand mushin from "The mind needs to be freed." and the idea that "Postures are for the beginner; later they are natural positions." Natural, like how everything should be. The movie that got me into Martial arts (Enter the Dragon) had a quote "A good martial artist does not become tense but ready. Not thinking yet not dreaming, ready for whatever may come. A martial artist has to take responsibility for himself and face the consequences of his own doing. To have no technique, there is no opponent, because the word "I" does not exist. When the opponent expands I contract and when he contracts, I expand. And when there is an opportunity, "I" do not hit, "It" hits all by itself."

But "Immovable heart" fudoshin is much harder to understand.

Karate has personally not only shaped my body, but the my spirit and mind. The way I think and act all have been from the same mindset.

kakatootoshi

10-15-2007, 08:02 AM

Dear chen3141,
The new book of Matsui Hideki is titled "Fudoshin". Matsui pictures Fudoshin as
"A heart as deep and wide as Nihonkai (Sea of Japan), and as strong and immovable as Hakusan (a volcano in Japan)".
I hope you will find this analogy useful.

It is difficult to find a "definition" for these concepts and as a matter of fact, there is no entry for Fudoshin in Japanese Wikipedia. I have not read the article in English Wikipedia but I guess you may take it as a beginner's guide.

And I must stress again that if you have rooted in your mind that "Mushin" is different from "Fudoshin" or that, it is very hard for you to get their messages across.

OSU!