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View Full Version : Gedan mawashi to knee RJC 11-20-2007, 07:51 AM The occurence of accidental gedan mawashi strikes to the knee joint, is something which has concerned me more as I have gotten older. Is this a common occurence in full-contact Kyokushin fighting? If so, any examples of how serious the damage has been? Also, do referees really notice it? Paedde 11-20-2007, 08:07 AM The black belts in my dojo always hit the femoral nerves :D I think it can happen when you are unlucky with the timing of the leg check or if your opponent is not aiming enough, but as far as I know it is allowed in Muay Thai (kicks to the side of the leg are allowed). But let's wait for the advice from the more experienced people here sublimo 11-20-2007, 09:04 AM In my opinion the target for gedan mawashi is from the foot until the hip. I think there is no such thing as don t kick to the knee in competition with gedan mawashi. You may not make mae geri s and kansetsu geri s to the knee. I know in competition they say that you may not make gedan mawashi to the knee, but as a referee when can you see it? How do you know as a referee that they don t play comedy if they are hit by a gedan mawashi? And what if you lauch one and they block it sune uke and it hits the knee instead of the shin? It is always so difficult to see this. Get my point? Brad 11-20-2007, 09:12 AM yeah in mauy thai you are allowed to knee any where on the body just not allowed to crab the back of the head and knee to the face. I did in a fight and i got a warning for pulling the head down with the gloves and kneeing to the face. Even though it was effective. seienchin 11-20-2007, 09:42 AM The occurence of accidental gedan mawashi strikes to the knee joint, is something which has concerned me more as I have gotten older. Is this a common occurence in full-contact Kyokushin fighting? If so, any examples of how serious the damage has been? Also, do referees really notice it? Yes, it is common, because in gi-pants it is actually hard to be accurate about where the knee is, and many full-contact fighters choose to kick just above the knee, because there is a nerve point there. How serious has the damage been? I have two reconstructed knees from this. I will probably need to have joint replacements well before I turn 60, and maybe even before I turn 50. Do referees really notice it. - Rarely. If they do, they seem to let it go. For this reason, the best way to deal with gedan mawashi is to either have your leg off the ground, or not be there. kakatootoshi 11-20-2007, 09:49 AM Dear RJC, In my knowledge gedan mawashi geri to the knee is a completely legal move in Kyokushin Kumite. OSU! Bloke 11-20-2007, 10:07 AM Perhaps it depends on the organisation but it has never been legal as far as I know - no joint attacks. seienchin 11-20-2007, 11:10 AM Perhaps it depends on the organisation but it has never been legal as far as I know - no joint attacks. Yeah - they always demonstrate kansetsu geri and say that it is forbidden...but I could count the times I have seen it enforced on one hand. goldberg2310 11-20-2007, 11:36 AM osu. at this time i know, wko has legalized the gedan mawashi to the knee at world champs 2003. at some tournaments refs notice the kick to the knee and gives a warning. so i think itīs depending on the organization if it would be allowed or not allowed. i agree, itīs hard to see...:D OSU-EN2 RJC 11-20-2007, 12:50 PM Thank you for your replies. This is the first topic thread I have started here, and you've been very helpfull. I am seriously considering entering Kyokushin tournaments in NZ. I have alot of work to do regarding this. Knowing the risks helps me to prepare for what may happen. Nix 11-20-2007, 09:32 PM To my knowledge all attacks to the joints are strictly forbidden, and will cause a penalty. If a fighter attempts to fake beeing hit, they will be punished. I have never noticed anyone doing this. As a ref, I admit that it's hard to tell. And yes, depending on the force in the kick, I guess it is possible that the ref will shrug it off as an accident - however if the fighter injures the opponent, or is deliberatelly trying to do so, he will get punished. As mentioned by others, this is probably different from style to style, however I have never heard of mawashi geri too the knees beeing allowed - and in my personal opinion, it is madness to allow it. vapor 11-20-2007, 10:05 PM We have all seen what happens when this goes unchecked....I mean, you have watched Karate Kid, right? sorry....back on topic! vapor goldberg2310 11-20-2007, 10:35 PM osu. if gedan mawashi to the knee is madness, mae geri jodan is madness, too! every street fighter can do this. in my opinion mae geri jodan should be banned from kyokushin tournaments - remember, in my opinion! :) OSU-EN2 Paedde 11-20-2007, 11:25 PM osu. if gedan mawashi to the knee is madness, mae geri jodan is madness, too! every street fighter can do this. in my opinion mae geri jodan should be banned from kyokushin tournaments - remember, in my opinion! :) OSU-EN2 Fighting is madness too ;) I would like the introducing of open hand strikes to the head, but thats not the matter here and won't happen anyway Why do you think Mae Geri Jodan is worse than Mawashi Geri? Or Hiza Geri? Bloke 11-21-2007, 08:19 AM I may be wrong but if you look at the number of knockdowns scored with Mae Geri Jodan I suspect its going to be relatively low compared to most other kicks as while the concept of Mae geri Jodan is devastating the actual execuation on the mat is more difficult. goldberg2310 11-21-2007, 08:48 AM osu, open hand strikes to the head will be allowed by royama group kyokushin kan... mae geri jodan is worser than any other technique - believe it. try your withe belts doing any jodan technique - most of them can only do mae geri jodan...remember, i say itīs a streetfighting technique and is very close to punches to the head. iīve seen many koīs doing by mae geri jodan at tournaments. mostly in womens division it is introduced more and more, maybe depending on fighting with shin protection and a big number of gedan mawashi will not work. on the other way, some fighters who know they will loose the fight, try to catch their oponent with mae geri jodan, etc. ... thats all. OSU-EN2 nzproud 11-21-2007, 09:31 AM Osu. I saw a similar incident at the world open tournament recently. Naoki Ichimura of Japan did a gedan mawashigeri on a guy and the kick landed on his knee cap(accidentally when he raised his leg to block the kick!) and the guy collapsed to the mat immediately. I felt sorry for him but these incidents sometimes happen. I hope he is okay. Paedde 11-21-2007, 09:41 AM Osu. I saw a similar incident at the world open tournament recently. Naoki Ichimura of Japan did a gedan mawashigeri on a guy and the kick landed on his knee cap(accidentally when he raised his leg to block the kick!) and the guy collapsed to the mat immediately. I felt sorry for him but these incidents sometimes happen. I hope he is okay. I think it wouldn't make sense to change the rules, because when you try to check a leg kick and your opponent is aiming for the knee, he won't hit. But it's possible when he's aiming higher and you check, so it can happen by accident. seienchin 11-21-2007, 10:36 AM Serious injury to the knee is unlikely from a kick when the knee is not weight-bearing - so a leg check, even if it results in a direct impact to knee is pretty safe for the "checker". One of the most horrible injuries I have ever seen personally was the Nationals in Australia in 1988 (I think) when they were held in Brisbane. One of the men was throwing a full-strength gedan mawashi, and his opponent did a leg-check. The guy throwing the kick broke his own leg with teh force of his kick as it impacted the block. He basically wrapped his tibia and fibula around his opponent's tibia. :eek: It was horrible. RJC 11-21-2007, 11:17 AM Reminds me of that movie "Bloodsport" somehow. Nix 11-21-2007, 12:07 PM if gedan mawashi to the knee is madness, mae geri jodan is madness, too!There is a big difference between the two. One of them might injure you for life. The other one will most likely not cause anything more serious than a bloody lip or perhaps even a broken nose. Regarding open-hand techinques to the head, I heard rumour that Kancho Hidenori Ashihara wanted it to be implemented at the Sabaki Challlenge Spirit - not as a strike, but as a part of a throw or takedown (ura nage or maki komi nage, for instance). powerof0ne 11-21-2007, 08:45 PM yeah in mauy thai you are allowed to knee any where on the body just not allowed to crab the back of the head and knee to the face. I did in a fight and i got a warning for pulling the head down with the gloves and kneeing to the face. Even though it was effective. You didn't fight full thai rules..you fight modified muay thai rules is why. Under full Thai rules you're allowed to knee to the head/face. I fought a few times in Canada where I was allowed to knee to the face and landed multiple jump knees to my opponent's chin and head. I agree though, it is effective..but full Muay Thai rules allows elbows and knees t the face/head. powerof0ne 11-21-2007, 08:51 PM If I don't like the person or in a fight I'll purposely "knee" the gedanmawashigeri instead of checking it with my shin. Paedde 11-21-2007, 08:57 PM If I don't like the person or in a fight I'll purposely "knee" the gedanmawashigeri instead of checking it with my shin. :eek: So you try to destroy his knee instead of causing pain hitting the nerves? Sorry but I can't agree with that, I walk right away from the tournament if someone is so unsportmanslike vapor 11-21-2007, 09:16 PM :eek: So you try to destroy his knee instead of causing pain hitting the nerves? Sorry but I can't agree with that, I walk right away from the tournament if someone is so unsportmanslike We may not be talking apples to apples here....I don't think that powerofone is referring to a damaging blow to the knee of the opponent...more of a discussion of blocking the gedan mawashi striking leg with his knee---before it has to be received/blocked with his shin. vapor mpeters 11-21-2007, 11:02 PM I don't think I have ever seen a tournament fighter purposly take a shot at a knee joint, but as has already bean mentioned I have seen and had accidental damage to the knee by checking gedans. I'd like to think that we all fight in the true spirit of the sport and within the rules. Paedde 11-22-2007, 07:39 AM We may not be talking apples to apples here....I don't think that powerofone is referring to a damaging blow to the knee of the opponent...more of a discussion of blocking the gedan mawashi striking leg with his knee---before it has to be received/blocked with his shin. vapor Oh it's my fault, sorry powerofone I misread it :( andy83 11-22-2007, 10:27 AM Sincerely, I've seen a very few times of this kind of damage. powerof0ne 11-22-2007, 02:49 PM What I'm talking about doing isn't checking a kick with my knee like you do with your shin; I'm talking about kneeing the gedanmawashigeri..there is a difference. If you check a kick with your knee you're going to be in some pain. Like I said, I don't do it in friendly sparring unless the person is one of those people that decide to turn up the heat. If you're good at checking kicks, you should be able to knee the gedanmawashigeri..if you're still learning how to check kicks I wouldn't try this, yet. BTW, Master Toddy(www.mastertoddy.com)is the one that taught me how to do that. seienchin 11-23-2007, 06:03 AM If I don't like the person or in a fight I'll purposely "knee" the gedanmawashigeri instead of checking it with my shin. Like or dislike, feelings at all, especially nasty, negative agressive feelings should not influence your choice of technique! Just because you don't like someone doesn't make it OK to inflict pain on them! That is, as I believe Obi Wan Kanobi described it, the beginning of going over to the dark side!:( Karate is about getting control of your feelings. The more you dislike someone, the less you should allow yourself to play that out on the mat. Katver 11-25-2007, 12:47 PM it's really got nothing to do with referees or concerns about age... from white belt we're taught to block! Lift your legs to right angle! Perfect you're blocking techniques... The refs can't protect you : ) RJC 11-30-2007, 12:06 PM I know that this is off topic. But I started this thread, and I feel ok itroducit'n this stuff. I am currently dealing with parenthood difficulties. My son is at the age where he is learning about limitations. He often feels that he is incapable of certain lessons at school. I have done my best to teach him patience. He is talented beyond his understanding, but he is only 7, so he's thinking about other stuff. All Iwanted to teach him was that patience begets results. I recently realised that I have made the SAME mistakes that he has. I tended to doubt myself upon reading posts on this site. I saw that I had a long way to go before I had the experience that K4life members have. BUT then I remembered that despite my admiration for Kyokushin fighters, I have faced similar challenges on the street. I have tangled with prospecting grounds for gangs and somehow survived. I have made it through some really hairy situations on the street that someone of my ( middle class, well catered for ) background should not have survived. It all came down to unconditional respect. I have learned more about psychology (I am a full time UNI PSYC student) from homeless people, than Iwill ever learn from txtbooks. I guess that I will never live up to my expectations. That is the reason that I trust myself. I am not willing to rest, not for a moment. If you look back to Sosai's favouraite teachers, you will remember (sureley) your own ongoing quest for peace of mind. Sorry for the random post, I just wanted to speak from the heart. Osu to all of you who stay up late readin this stuff ( like me ). And OSU to all of you who remember thatr we are all prone to mistakes. Kyokushin is a pure martial art in all it's forms. Ryan Condon 21 Manor Place Bryndwr, Christchurch. |