disappointment, frustration

[BudoKid2002]

how do u deal with a teachers who limits you because you're a woman? who wont listen to reason.
limits u in kumite, tameshiwari whn u have proven yourself otherwise?

eg: women spar with men but the men cant hit back
women do push ups half the total of men

i am hurt and disappointed as im discouraged frm trying harder

[mary222]

it is not my place to judge
but to me the the only limit that would go along kyokushin spirits would be your own. i must say i'm i bit puzzle here aren't teacher (not only in ma) suppose to help you go further and achieve more than you think you can??

[BudoKid2002]

thats why my spirit is broken & discouraged now, osu..
i tried talking it out but it was interpreted as trying to question his authority.
i'm not trying to be conceited by showing off by demanding harder training, i just want to treated equally as the guys. to surpass myself to be a better karateka, not to be a better WOMAN karateka

[mary222]

i think that finding the right teacher for you is one of the most important thing if you want to go further i've personally had a few sensei's and i must say that y curent sensei as help me see a whole new side of me.

[BrazilianKick1]

Osu!
Are you the only woman in the dojo that feels this way or are there others?
Osu

[BudoKid2002]

im the only way that feel that way becos the rest asks for less conditioning, less etc

[jcbel]

It is unfortunate that he feels that way about it. To be fair, it is your instructor's responsibility to prevent you from getting hurt by doing too much but it doesn't sound like it in your case.

And I agree as previously said your instructor should be taking you to new limits not setting lower ones for you... I had a good relationship with my first instructor and he kept pushing me till I had absolutely nothing left. People used to joke that you would know he was instructing when you heard the moaning and groaning from outside the class. :)

[Brad]

That's a shame i ve seen some females fight and they can hit hard so it's unfortunite that, thats going on in that dojo.

[Aunty Ichigeki]

Tough problem but Kyokushin training is a long road & it's very likely you won't always have the same instructor. Most of us have probably had an instructor we don't rate or don't agree with at one time or other.

If it helps consider that Kyokushin is about perseverence after all & overcoming all those bad & negative thoughts in your head. So if you think positively you're instructor is doing you a huge favour by giving you plenty of bad noise in your head to overcome! Just think, his limits on you are one other thing to endure and if you can do it you will be a stronger person mentally. Every time you get furious at him try to find a calm mind... it's exactly the same as when you fight & someone smacks you in the face or you forget a kata step & get mad at yourself. The hardest thing about Kyokushin is overcoming the noise in your head & staying cool so relax, do very full pushups or switch to fingertips if you're only allowed to do half, get some fantastic practice on your offensive game with those men and don't worry about missing out...you're doing no worse than an injured fighter or someone with some other handicap to overcome. Gambatte!

[BudoKid2002]

unfortunately, yes. there's only one teacher where im from.
thats a gd way to look at it. switching to finger pushups. thanks, osu!
i'll have a go if he hasnt decided to throw me out of dojo again for going against him

[Spirit]

budo,
Please give more info...
What country are you in
How old is your Sensei and rank
Who is his Sensei.
Your age
Your Grade
What are your goals and expectations of your training???
Are you looking to be a K/D fighter or do you just feel that you should be treated equally as the men etc...
fill in as much as you can and more, this will give us a bigger picture of your situation

[BudoKid2002]

if i disclose where i am and my sensei hears about it, everything is over for me. in fact, i have already decided to quit. mayb the problem is just me.

my goals were simple. to strengthen my body, instill discipline in myself, improve my fitness and i did this by continuosly challenging myself.
but it was interpreted in a challenging & hostile way with dire consequences now.

thank u everyone for yr kind words and advice. i wish that we could train together someday.

osu

[supergroup7]

Budokid2002, I would say that you have a few choices

a) Continue training with this Sensei accepting the regulations, and expectations of his dojo with good attitude, and fervour. Perhaps by having a positive attack on the limitations that he has provided you can show that you are capable of much more. You can do the women's requirements during class, and then after class what stops you from doing the other half of the workout on your own before you go home?

b) Find a Martial arts instructor with the same expectations, and opinions as yourself.

[kaloyan]

You dont need to quit.If you train hard enough one day your teacher will appreciate that.Just dont quit because kyokushin teaches never to give up, no matter how hard it is. ps: The first time i sparred with a woman i too didnt wanted to hit back.But when i got my ass kickedi started to fight.Do the same hit the man hard for a long time and he will need to fight just to protects himself.

[kakatootoshi]

Dear BudoKid2002,
Just some suggestions that may or may not work.
I suggest you at Jiyu Kumite try to hit the guys harder. Do not go hard on vulnerable Kohais and do not suddenly knockout someone when they are not supposed to hit back. Let them know if they do not block they will get hit and get humiliated and frustrated. Just hitting harder is not enough, your attacks must "hit" and well placed to let the guys know you are not an angry bull, but someone who has good techniques. You must prove to them that you deserve more.

But you have to ultimately relay your feelings to the Sensei because if the guys are not allowed to hit you back and you continue to bash them, there is no use and you are just being impolite as they are just following the instructions of the Sensei. They have no responsibility to go against the Sensei for you.

OSU!

[jcbel]

I'm wondering what Seienchin's thoughts are on this matter...

[Brad]

Good question Jcbel hope seienchin see's this thread soon. She will have some good answers.

[Red]

The worst thing you can do is quit and give up! You really seem to embrace the Kyokushin spirit and if you get that than giving up is not permitted. If you can't reason with your teacher than finger push-up's are great but find ways to push yourself hard in maybe a not so obvious way to the rest of the class. We are all here cheering you on!

:cool:OSU-EN2

[seienchin]

OSU-EN2 Budokid. Totally understand that space you are in . I've been there, as have many of the older kyokushin women. But if you leave....then they have won.

It IS frustrating. It IS infuriating. It IS just sooooooh aggravating....but it is also a GREAT opportunity to get those emotions under control....especially since you don't have another choice of dojo.

Your profile says that you are 2nd kyu - have you come all this way in this same dojo - that's not clear to me.

I also note you are an engineer- if Engineering is anything like in Australia, wherever you are, you are already toughed up against letting sexist behavior truly get under your skin.

How to proceed. Well - you haven't said that the women are not allowed to hit you. So ASK them to. You will need to keep your cool, and not hit hard back, because from what you have posted, they are not wanting harder kumite, but they may be willing to help you. If that's not allowed, what about tournaments? YOu can go a long way without the men hitting you, although obviously, it would help!

And I agree with what has been posted above about working hard in your own kumite. I still remember the day an Australian lightweight male champion came up to me and asked how much I weighed. When I told him it was 64kg he said "It feels like a lot more!!!". Start to punch way above your weight grade. That, more than anything, will earn you respect and make them start seeing you as a fellow-karateka. Men EXPECT women to be able to kick fast and snappy, and even pretty hard. They don't expect our punches to take their breath away (literally). 3rd and 2nd kyu for me were the journey of learning to use my arms with confidence and strength. The bag is your best friend. If there is a bag in the dojo - be there before and after trainging, beating it to death...with punches not kicks.

Alternatively - you could take the pathway of Sensei Kikken Cook. When I was a kyu-grade, the woman who was an assistant instructor used to tell me about Kikken Cook. And the story (I can't vouch for how true it is, but it's a good story) goes thus. When she went to Honbu to train, she was asked to train in the womens class. She ipponed everyone she fought. She was then asked to go into the mens class, but the men were not allowed to hit her. She only had to knock out about 10 men before it was agreed that they could hit back!:D (One day I'd like to hear the real version of this - but this version fed my soul when I was in a similar position to you).

I completely agree with Aunty about the pushups - mostly in class, the pushups are little short ones. Doing half as many, twice as deep is more than twice as hard...so just do that, and know you are the one gaining the most benefit.

Tameshiwari - well, you'll just have to work on this at home, by yourself, like I did. I then told my instructor the night before my grading that I was going to do it. One of the assistant instructors walked up just as I was about to do them at my shodan and said "you don't have to do this you know"...as if I could or would bail when the boards were stacked! But I broke almost a 100 boards in practice, so I KNEW i woudl not be humiliated.

Remember, there will always be a few men who are uncomfortable when women push at the boundaries of what those men think defines masculinity. Because if women can do it makes THEM feel less of a man. That's what you are up against. And you won't win the external battle if this is the dynamic.

If you are discouraged from trying harder by this, then you are not yet ready to take the step to 1st kyu. The motivation to try harder needs to come from you...to be about the joy of improving, not about being seen by anyone else to be able to do this stuff. And you have ultimate control over this, not your sensei. He cannot stop you having lightening fast strikes, the heart-stopping forceful punches, snappy, strong kicks. he cannot stop your blocks being arm-breakers. And he cannot stop your heart beating fiercely...unless you choose to let him.

This is when you choose if your journey in kyokushin will be defined by you, or by a sensei who sees your gender before he sees your dogi. And once you take control of it, you will realise that he doesn't really matter. He is a tool you can use, with respect and reverence, but he doesn't control who you will become. The "budo" bit of budokid has to be inside you, available no matter where, or with whom you train. And once you have learned this in the dojo, it applies everywhere.

fight well! OSU-EN2

[kanku]

osu budokid, i agree with most of the replies and i hope they help.

the only thing i would say is i always had a problem sparring with women, the lower grades i used to try and encourage and compliment good technique but the higher grades were always a problem to me....i am big and kd was all i was really interested in..[.i can say that now i`m long out of it !]

the point i am making is i have never sparred with any women i could not have knocked down very quickly,i am not sexist this is just a fact,so you spar with a 3rd dan with good technique who is trying to knock you over,or a least slap you round the head with a kick what do you do?....i wanted to show respect but i never ever landed a kick or a punch with full power and i was very carefull where they were aimed
...was that me being respectfull or disrespectfull?...so if you want to try and go full on with the boys would you expect them to disregard your gender and go full on with you....i couldn`t do this. perhaps a happy medium is required pre-arranged ?

i still think your sensei is behind the times but can you see where i`m coming from?.....i hope i haven`t offended the women on this site for whom i have great respect !! OSU-EN2

[Spirit]

BUdo...
All good advice, But....

QUIT
Hell your pathetic anyway crying of split milk!!!

Is that what you wish to hear every time you look into the mirror????
Well is it?

Men can be dicks, yes we can and some times men really suck when it comes to women in the dojo. I have seen this first hand many times over and over, it is a cultural thing that you may need to work around or come to America, or UK, Germany, NZ, Aussie, countries like that do not show such ways to woman....

So you can take the easy road and quit or take the high road and look for another Sensei who will respect you for who you are and challenges you at the level you wish to climb to!!!

But first ask yourself this (and share it with us to please)
Is it Sensei or is it me, am I being stubborn or am I being rastional...
I can't know this since you are only words on a forum, we have to except what you post as valid info so don't take this the wrong way.
Help us understand your problems and issues, feeling and give us more examples to fully understand you and the problems you face so we can SUGGEST possible solutions and maybe give you advice that could end up helping you or providing you with ways to deal.

NOW deep breath and start over and explain in more detail your issues , feeling, and problems.

[kakatootoshi]

Dear seienchin,
Just want to make a point on the notion of trying to knockout those men who are not allowed to hit back. If those men are bigger, more advanced in skills then I think this is alright, as it is their fault of not training hard enough (being arrogant or whatsoever) so they are not able to block the attacks (if they are allowed so) and get KOed. On the other hand if the lady in concern is strong enough to knockout those men in Jiyu Kumite then I think doing the same is not a nice thing to do.

OSU!

[seienchin]

OSU-EN2Kaka-san...these observations of yours are why it was not my first solution. It makes the students suffer for the sake of the sensei's stubborness....And it is a solutino of violence, which as you so diplomatically put "is not nice". And the risk anyway is of being kicked out of the dojo altogether...(But it is one of those stories that will live on..true or not).

but I must be honest. The part of me that still gives in to a yearning for justice and vengeance...would love to go and train with budokid and help her to do this...:o..And perhaps we could take Lucy who can do that thing in her footer about hurting Lizard People. But the part of me that seeks the higher way goes "nha - it's just temptation to go over to the Dark Side".

Hey -there's a thought...maybe we could have a K4L girly convergence on the dojo...not to knock anyone out, but to train hard and burn their souls with the intensity of our training!

Budokid - where are you???

[DKKC]

Budokid,
I have been in your position and I chose to ignore my instructor's words. I had to be careful as if he asked the men to do 30 press ups and the wome to do 15 It took me a while till I managed to do the 30 pressups as fast as the men. I strated doing excercises till the last person finished theirs. After a while (especially with situps) I would do a lot more than the men did but I stuck to the rule of doing the exercise till the last person (man or woman) finished theirs. It helped me improve a lot without sticking out!

Fighting - if men didn't want to hit me at the level I wanted them to - I would hit back as hard as I could (I still use this approach, as i still meet men who don't want toeven do gi contact when sparring a woman). In time, regardless of the instructor's wish, they started treating me as an equal and silently, the instructor started treatintg me as such.

It did help at some point that we had a massive bloke (over 2 meters tall and very well built), who had no problem hitting a woman hard - his oppinion was that on the street a woman would be hit hard in order to be subdued and if you are used to it, you stand a chance. I believe his approach had an influence on my instructor's attitude as well as in time, he has changed the way he taught and asked the same from all his students.

[Aunty Ichigeki]

Budokid!!!! Horror! Why did you start Kyokushin in the first place? Kyokushin is never on the student's terms... that's what makes it Kyokushin! You want to "instill discipline in yourself". This is where it starts! Training self discipline is just the same as training a muscle... you have to stress it to make it stronger! You sound like a driven person who loves to push their body hard. Do you think you could use that strength to push your mind too? You mentioned the problem might be yours... is that okay with you? Or is that something that might be good to address now while you have the opportunity to meet it head on?

We talk about leaving our ego outside the door of the dojo. An ego weighs heavily in life and will interfere with all kinds of situations in life, eg. self development, work, relationships etc. Dump the ego, challenge yourself to do 6 weeks without it and see how you feel after. Respect your instructor for the belt around his waist. Think of him as a representative of all the black belts who have gone before him. He's only doing what he thinks is right for you at this moment in time and he deserves respect for giving his time and energy to others. It sounds like you owe him an apology. It's never okay to challenge your instructor no matter what you think. Go hard. It's only 6 weeks!

[seienchin]

OSU-EN2aunty a rare occasion...I think we disagree.

I get very worried about models of karate that insist on absolute blind obedience, with the sublimation of the students will. This sets up a risk of a cult-like situation, and can make students very vulnerable to abuse by unethical dojo operators. I have seen Kyokushin extend into very cult-like behaviour, and it is most unhealthy.

Would we be even having this discussion if budokid was being denied opportunity because of the colour of her skin? Would we be telling her to be obedient? Would we be telling her to take it with humilty, if her instructor was exhibiting overtly racist behaviour? I think not.

there are some behaviours from instructor that have to be challenged, and I am of the view that overt sexism, rascism, and religious bigotry are amongst them. It is one thing to be humble. It is another to insist that people remain silent while injustices are done.

If all budokid wants is to be treated like every other member of the dojo, I think she has a right as a student and a customer to ask for that. For her instructor to take any other path is the part that is "un-kyokushin". However, only budokid can answer the question to herself if this is really the issue. That's part of the problem with a forum of words. We can never know the whole story.

OSU-EN2

[Aunty Ichigeki]

I see your point Seienchin but I think it's a tough call to compare this situation with racism. Sexism is inherent in Kyokushin because, pound for pound, women are not a good match for men. We rely on our male students to use good judgement when they spar with the women. I don't think that's sexism.

I am glad you brought up the subject of blind obedience though because, in case it wasn't obvious from past posts, I'm a bit of a strop myself and inclined to think I know best... however... I've learned that I can have the best of both worlds when training under an instructor that erks me by playing the game.

I don't advocate blind obedience but obedience with eyes wide open. You can believe in your heart that your instructor is wrong but unless he/she is making you do something injurious to yourself or others (my pet hates) then I don't think it's enough of a deal to give up on the whole system! Still waters run deep and it's a long journey. Regardless whether this guy is the only instructor for now, chances are in 3 years time there'll be a new breed of yudansha and a whole new culture... & Budokid will have the best kaiten do mawashi geris because she has had 3 years not worrying about uke waza!

I guess I just don't think being asked to do half qty of pushups & being protected from the men during sparring (who knows who those men are and what the culture in the club is) is that dire!

[seienchin]

I see your point Seienchin but I think it's a tough call to compare this situation with racism. Sexism is inherent in Kyokushin because, pound for pound, women are not a good match for men. We rely on our male students to use good judgement when they spar with the women. I don't think that's sexism.



Indeed - if the very small male students at the dojo are offered the same protection, then no problem. If they are still pulverised, but the female student of greater weight, strength and skill is singled out for special conditions, then that is sexism. Like I have said above, only BudoKid knows the details here.

pragmatic Size-ism is fine....Sexism is not.

[Spirit]

Auntie , seienchin

We as the teacher are we not the Stuarts to the next generation???

If so, do we not have to teach to the best of our ability??? even if it means not teaching someone who is not right for the learning???

If so, than could it be not the correct decision that is being made by budokids Sensei???

We have given her very good advice so far, but also we now must take the opposite side and defend the Sensei as well.
Since we do not know who is right or wrong in this situation!?!


I can't count how many times I have challenged a student to focus on learning the lesson at had and not trying to jump 10 ahead just because they feel that is where "they" think they should be. Or worse think their skills re at that point or the mind is!!!
No place in society is their no rules or hierarchy to follow, it is no different in Karate which is based on a hierarchal and military format...
It is the first lesson learned in the dojo and one of the most strictly followed rules as well. A student must follow the Sensei's rules "That pertain to training" and that don't step outside of those boundaries or discriminate one based on culture, but based on skill and ability to learn, then it is the right of the teacher to do so.
Many times it is a needed lesson that can offend the student's ego, and that student needs to be cultivated as well taught that lesson. Not unlike what is done in boot camp for the military. A student enters the dojo that is structured with rules, tradition, hierarchy, formats, grades, syllabus, levels and sometime religious formats. Do you think that the assembly worker tells the V/P of operations how to run the manufacturing plant??? what the difference in Karate, Not a thing. One has the knowledge and wisdom the other seeks it and Must follow the path to get to it, without asking or challenging.

We control the lessons, the manner in which the student learns, the degree in which they learn, as well how far we wish them to learn/go based on their personality and/or abilities. It is up to us to Fully Understand each students goals and desires so that we can teach them to that level "IF" they are realistic goals. (we know that the young mind wants everything, but often can't can't have it do to not having the abilities) Often we are the ones who must present the bad news to the student that their goals and their abilities are not close to each other and really are not attainable for them. this often puts us in the bad place in the eye of the student. They have looked up to us till that point as a mentor, and now we just broke that , even though we are doing it for their best interest.

Hopefully along the way, a few of the students will actually take their heads out of the ego and stop looking at the stars and start looking in the mirror.
At that point is when we (as the teacher) know we have a decedent student... one who is willing to follow all paths not just a few (kata or kumite) but all of them and often hating most of them, yet still following them with an open mind and a desiring body.
At that point the relationship changes between student and teacher.
For the rest it stays teacher... student.

Now I know this is going to evoke a lot of talk and disagreement, and so be it. But before one steps up and barks, first step back and look at our training and dojo from outside the glass and really see what is happening.

NOW...
Should we hold back the student do to poor personality over the fact that they are high or even some what skilled??? Well I will say Yes, Yes!!!
I don't care how physically capable one is, that is the person you train to take the beatings in the ring, nothing more nothing less You will see this done in almost every Honbu in every style, Oyama did it best ..
But we are the next set of ancestors and we must strive to produce powerful students, mind, body, spirit.
Not just 2 out of 3 or 1 out of 3 just because a student or group of students are good or great fighters or teachers (in the sense that everyone likes them) or good kata "performers".
Their is a balance that must be preserved, and Oyama and all the others have done this and so must the few of you who truly understand this...

Karate is balanced, between, training the physical in ALL areas, the mental as well the next generation with knowledgeable, balanced and focus to produce the next generation of teachers.

To often we take the whole Sensei role in the wrong direction. I see it as the guardian to the knowledge both how I was taught (passing that on) and how I developed new knowledge, and must find the correct students to pass it on to as well the balanced idea to also develop knowledge on their own too.
Not every student will be able, and we must weed out those who can't. WE keep them as students and teach them with the best ability, yet they just don't get the last few chapters, because they just will not take them in and understand them as well pass them on.

This has been part of passing of knowledge for tens of thousands of years, no matter if it is cooking, hunting, tribal leadership or Karate (its all the same) man kind will look at those who they like and dislike and give those that they like more than those they don't... Separation of man and woman will always be until man and woman are equal in death...

[seienchin]

OSU-EN2 Spirit - I couldn't agree more. I have been at pains to stress that only BudoKid knows the truth of the whole situation. And a sensei may indeed have reasons for holding a student back. Gender is not a valid reason, but attitude, abilty, patience, spirit, these are all good reasons. Now if there is a reason from the "good" list, but the sensei allows the student to believe that gender is the reason, this creates a whole potential generation of classmates who think gender discrimination is OK. I have the impression from BudoKid that she has been clearly told it is because she is female. I don't think that is defensible, because if it is truly the sensei's reason, then that's not OK, and if it is being used by the sensei as a "cover story" for a more profound reason, it is still not OK.
otherwise, I'm with ya!

[Spirit]

Perhaps, it is how it has gone down (using the female excuse rather than tell the painful truth) as
budokid, has stated ( I'd like to ad) how she feels and how things may have happened may not be the same. But as some of you are aware... I'm never convinced by a post that is well written.
Not taking sides here nor am I assuming that budokid has not given us truthful posts on her situation.
But as those of you who are seasoned instructors know quite well that often your actions and words are taken out of context or perceived differently than what/how you explained them or express them etc.

Often on the forum we jump to the side of the poster and may not take into consideration the complete story or use past examples that you've experience that are quite similar to those being posted and use that experience to redefine the post for yourself, then post make a comment or possible give an example.

Of course any time any person, teacher, coach, etc uses their position to manipulate others into inappropriate behavior then it is wrong!

So we need budokid to give us more, but I think her absence for the past 4-5 days tells us she has perhaps moved on...

So how can we as Sensei's take this lesson and use it to dissolve or correct issues we face within the dojo???

I would have to say facing the facts is often the best thing everyone should do (instructors). If you need to tell a student that their attitude, skills, etc, is effecting their ability to move forward then put it on the table as soon as you can. Don't try to soften the truth with other ways to make them feel OK about it i.e. female .... your a kid.... etc I would think that coming right out and giving your seasoned opinion is far better than beating around the bush?!?

[seienchin]

OSU-EN2Osu-EN1 Absolutely. I am a big believer in truth-telling. But it must be truth-telling with care, support and respect attached, otherwise it can just be another form of abuse. I think a soft cover story to make the sensei's life more comfortable (by being "kind" to the student") is contrary to the whole strength of spirit that we should be trying to model.

And before we write of budokid- let's just wait and see...maybe she doesn't have ready access... Hah -there I go again...benefit of the doubt and all.....

[kanku]

Perhaps, it is how it has gone down (using the female excuse rather than tell the painful truth)
budokid, has stated (well I may ad) how she feel and how things have happened. But as some of you are aware... I'm never convinced by a post that is well written.
Not taking sides here nor am I assuming that budo kid has not given us truthful posts on her situation.
But as those of you who are seasoned instructors know quite well that often your action are taken out of context or perceived differently than they what you explained them to be or express them.

Often on the forum we jump to the side of the poster and may not take into consideration the complete story or use past examples that you've experience that are quite similar to those being posted and use that experience to redefine the post for your self, then post.

Of course any time any person teacher, coach, etc uses the position they hold to manipulate others into inappropriate behavior then it is wrong!

So we need budokid to give us more, but I think her absence for the past 4-5 days tells us she has perhaps moved on...

So how can we as Sensei's take this lesson and use it to dissolve or correct issues we face within the dojo???

I would have to say facing the facts is often the best thing everyone should do. If you need to tell a student that their attitude is effecting their ability to move forward then put it on the table as soon as you can. Don't try to soften the truth with other ways to make them feel OK about it i.e. female .... your a kid.... etc I would think that coming right out and giving your seasoned opinion is far better than beating around the bush?!?

WISE WORDS SPIRIT OSU-EN2