Kwokushin vs other styles (Sanda)

[Brazilian Berseker]

Hello folks!!!

I was wondering about something.
Suposing a confrontation Kyokushin vs Sanda, with the following rules:

Full contact
Bare knuckle
Face punching
Leg kicks
Side and Front kicks to the legs and knees
knees (to the face, legs and body)
elbows (to the face and body)
headbutts
groin kicks
takedowns

NO GROUND FIGHTING

What woud be the advantages of kyokushin and what would be it's weak points? The same for Sanda.
Please technical arguments....I'm not looking for "my dad can beat up you dad" answers....heheheh
Excuse-me for my terrible English.
Thanks a lot and OSSU!!!!!!!!

[Shamo]

I think it depends on the judging, but it might always come down to the atheletes themselves.

[Brazilian Berseker]

Shamo,

Sure I agree....of course it always depends on the fighter....but I'm looking for the technical adantages or weak points in general....let's imagine a great championchip....like 500 fighters from each each....What we would see?...for exemple:

I think kyokushin is really great at low kicks (guedan mawashi)....and normally our fighters are really used to take a great amount of punishment....
On the other hand, we are not used to face punching and takedowns...
But being bare knuckle, kyokushin fighters have conditioned hands and punch in the proper way, but sanda fighters are used to gloves...so they (I think) don't have strong wrists and hands...
I don't know if my point of view is correct...but I want to learn more....
I picked Sanda, because it is an interesting style, and it is not very developed in Brazil, just the opposite of kyokushin and karate in general since we have a good tradition in japanese/okinawan martial arts here, but we don't have much tradition in chinese arts (Brazil has A LOT of japanese descendents but very few chinese).

But thanks anyway...I'll be waiting for your considerations....

OSSU!!!

[Dent]

Osu!

I have fought Sanshou and Sanda fighters under their rules, with some success, but my background is not pure Kyokushin (Started in Boxing and years of Judo, with other Karate and Muay Thai too.), so I have some idea of their strengths and weaknesses.

Given your criteria:
Bare knuckle face punching is going to make all the difference in the world. I've had a couple of proper bare knuckle matches with much the same rules, but including groundwork. The first had me requiring some serious stitches from a hole I could just about see through with the eyelid closed.;)

Groin kicks are also going to make fights a dirty prospect. If we are having a fight like this, and I'm getting ahead, and suddenly I get shinned in the nads, my whole world is going to slide sideways. I reckon the same is true for anyone from 14-year-old newbie to top K-1 fighter. That's why we wear a cup! :D

Their takedowns are fast. Surprisingly so. Good angles on their leg sweeping attacks and dumping instead of classical throws. (IMO because of the gloves.)

(Note: There are guys that pound tar out of the bags with minimal wraps/ bag gloves etc., so I'm not going to assume weak wrists or fists.)

I'd agree that IME Kyokushin has the better front and low kicks, but that side kick of theirs is a problem to deal with.

At the end of the day, I reckon it would come down to individual athletes as much as anything, especially given the wide parameters of your contest.

Good question through

Osu!

[Brazilian Berseker]

Dent

Thanks a lot! Really good answer....and by the way, why their (sanda) side kicks are so good? I was amazed by their skill when I saw it in the net. Why we don't train sidekicks as they do?

OSSU!

[Taff]

Excellent well worded answer Dent - interesting to read!
OSU

[Dent]

Osu!

Thank you both. Always nice to get positive feedback. :)

They use the sidekick because the roundkick can be caught more easily. They snap it out quite strongly, and often use it to set up the hands.

Why don't we use it as often? I think we keep our forearms lower to cover the ribs (Not having to worry as much about face punches.) , and the foot doesn't take kindly to the elbow. I reckon it's just a resource choice. Mawashi is a better weapon for us.

Just an opinion though. ;)

Osu!

[kaloyan]

YouTube - Kyokushin vs San Shou Dec 2005 russians (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap9xqyRzcK4&feature=related)

[Brazilian Berseker]

Dent,

Interesting point....but I really like yoko gueris, and a use then quite frequently. But not as agressive as sanda fighters. I use them more like a thai fighter uses teep (similar to mae gueri, but like a push). I use my front feet to quikly stop my opponent's action, when he is coming. It's really useful, specialy against people that come to atack you and forget about their protection.
Osu!

[Kansetsu]

hhhmmm, i'm interested in the San Da's side kicks...anyone have specific video that shows some examples of their side kicks?

[Azimuth]

There you go

YouTube - Sanda Side Kick (Stamp) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az0rXBj6bt4)

[Dent]

Osu! Brazilian Beserker,

So, are you keeping the hip down and turning the foot, or doing a full hip twist to deliver the kick? (Thinking Teep is keeping the hip down, but trying to "see" with words is difficult for me.)

How do you avoid the arms?

I was working on a fun Dojo combo where I'd transition from the Brazilian kick to quick touchdown and back to half-back half-side kick with some success. Fits in between the arms, and can go for the ribs if he is slow recovering from the Mawashi.

Osu!

[bushido spirit]

it depends on the fighter himself, and the background training he had. But i belive kyokushin would win

[Kansetsu]

There you go

YouTube - Sanda Side Kick (Stamp) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az0rXBj6bt4)

NICE! oddly enough, from what i am seeing, their Side kick is more like a push kick instead of a snap to do damage (although i do see some snap at the end to do damage as well). Nice way to bring it up though...almost hidden. I might start practicing it that way...

Thanks for posting that Azimuth...

Osu-EN1

[Shamo]

Great topic, very interesting!
I think that the face punching is a definate disadvantage on our side.

[Martin H]

NICE! oddly enough, from what i am seeing, their Side kick is more like a push kick instead of a snap to do damage (although i do see some snap at the end to do damage as well). Nice way to bring it up though...almost hidden. I might start practicing it that way...

Thanks for posting that Azimuth...

Osu-EN1

Kenji Midori Shihan teaches something very close to the sanda sidekick.
Sort of halfway between a frontkick and a sidekick.
It is used in knockdown karate, but not all that often.

Im too tired to check, but I think he even shows it in the "born to be the strongest" shin-kyokushin kumite instructional series.

[jcbel]

Woah, just watched the video - trippy background and music!

[homer_simpson]

Based on what I have seen so far, I think Kyokushin's lack of takedown/grappling technique is a significant drawback against Sanda. However, if the Kyokushin practitioner can pack enough power to bring down an opponent in two or three hits, I believe the Kyokushin will win.

[Martin H]

There has been a few sanda vs kyokushin (and sanda vs daido juku) events. They where held in china with sanda rules.
The karate fighters didnt do all that well.
But if that was due to their unfamilliarity with the rules, or the fact that they were amateur knockdown fighters facing TOP sanda pros in sanda fights, is another questions

[shidokanatlanta]

most of the losses that come about when one style faces another style come about due to one fighting under another's rules. unless they've trained under their opponent's rules, they are usually at a disadvantage. if the sanda fighters were to face kyokushin fighters under knockdown rules, they would probably have a hard time.

[Martin H]

I have always tought that the ultimate test for a style is not inviting outsiders to fight in your tournaments, but going out fighting others under their rules. Win or lose, it gives more than defeating guest competitors fighting at a serious disadvantage.

Kudos to Kyokushinkan (who has sent fighters to the sanda vs kyokushin events in china) for doing it, even if the have not come out on top -yet.

[shidokanatlanta]

having fought under several styles myself, i know that i would be at a disadvantage competing against another style without seriously training under their format of competition. sure there is some carry over of technique. it would be difficult for a karate fighter to fight a kickboxer and have great success without training and competing in that style (or look at early UFC's where a smaller brazilian fighter defeated bigger fighters from other styles, because they were inefficient grapplers). if events are created for one style to fight another, the should modify the rules to have competitors compete perhaps under one rule style and then compete in the others. what happens is that when one style loses to another, that style is called weak (i.e. the video, Fighting Black Kings depiction of kung fu fighters).

[Kansetsu]

I don't know...this is my opinion. A martial artist trained in any martial arts and is a good martial artist, then they should be able to adapt to any rules or environments. If one is a Kyokushin Fighter trained in Kyokushin rules fights in an MMA / Sanda environment, then they should be good enough to adapt to it's rules, and move the hand up from mid body to head to protect themselves from face punches. Also, be prepared to be taken down, and have it in mind that they should do whatever they can to avoid the take downs.

Am i wrong in this?

Shindokanatlanta: I think for the Early UFC, the bigger fighters lost to the Gracies was because like you said inefficient grappling skills, but i honestly don't blame the fighters for that one. At that time, the fighters didn't really know what was going on. Gracie's fighting style was very new to most of the competitors and some never even saw that type of fighting style. Back then it was either brawling or stand up fighting like the movies. Of course wrestling and grappling existed in the world, but it wasn't as high profile as it is today. Heck, i'll admit when i first saw the Gracie's doing what they do, i was kinda annoyed at them. I thought it was cheesy, and somewhat cheating. But now i understand better.

[shidokanatlanta]

the only problem is that most of the time i see these videos of style vs. style, the opposing style is usually up to par with their opponents. what they have to do is train with someone proficient in the style they are going to compete in as opposed to adding some head punches, throws, etc. and trying to go fight a seasoned sanda fighter for example.

[Setsuna162]

I think the real problem of Kyokushin is the lack of ordinary head punch and grappling training. Fighting with head punches and grappling is very different from the Kyokushin style of full contact. When fighting with head punches and grappling you have to be much more careful, timing and distance also become significantly different.
The way you train can really affect your fighting style. If you only train under Kyokushin full contact rule, you will become confused when fighting with head punches and grappling. It is the same for a Kickboxer or Sanda fighter or MMA fighter when fighting under Kyokushin rule. I have a lot of problems sparring using only body punches and kicks (I am a Sanda fighter).