Krav Maga and Kyokushin

[Brazilian Berseker]

Hi everyone....

Well I just saw the Human Weapon episode about Krav Maga, but the topic will not be about Human Weapon (I know the show has a lot of problems and it's not good at all).
Anyway, I was wondering. I don't really know how I feel about Krav Maga, at one hand It's really great that they train for "reality", but at other hand, I feel that they don't really do "full contact". One thing is to know the movements for fighting..........another thing is to really put that in practice.
Those who know Krav Maga better than I do, please jump in and give your opinions.....I would appreciate that a lot.
And a second thing....did Krav Maga and kyokushin have ever cross their ways at some point?.,....does krav maga use any kyokushin tecniques?...or concepts? Did Sosai ever foght any krav maga fighter or something?

Thanks everyone, and please, no politics....

OSSU!

[shidokanatlanta]

i personally don't see krav maga as a style. as with many other "reality based" arts it's a blend of techniques taught in a simplistic manner that students can learn for self defense.

in my opinion self defense is more a mind-set than techniques. it doesn't matter what you know or how you train. it is being familiar with people (awareness, reading body language, etc.). people have to keep in mind that predators (those who commit violent acts) get a lot of experience doing what they do. so, if they make the first move anything can happen. your experiences, will to survive and hard training are going to get you through such situations.

as far as techniques are concerned, those techniques that one has trained and made into an automatic response are what's going to be used. it doesn't matter if it's a punch, kick, throw, or a brick. if you train in kyokushin for a year or two and get a foundations of the basic, i'm sure you'll have useable skills. also, anyone who is learning how to defend themselves, has to do full contact training. it trains one to throw effective techniques and conditions the body and mind.

[Brazilian Berseker]

i personally don't see krav maga as a style. as with many other "reality based" arts it's a blend of techniques taught in a simplistic manner that students can learn for self defense.

in my opinion self defense is more a mind-set than techniques. it doesn't matter what you know or how you train. it is being familiar with people (awareness, reading body language, etc.). people have to keep in mind that predators (those who commit violent acts) get a lot of experience doing what they do. so, if they make the first move anything can happen. your experiences, will to survive and hard training are going to get you through such situations.

as far as techniques are concerned, those techniques that one has trained and made into an automatic response are what's going to be used. it doesn't matter if it's a punch, kick, throw, or a brick. if you train in kyokushin for a year or two and get a foundations of the basic, i'm sure you'll have useable skills.


I agree with you in many aspects, I think self defense is more about the right mindset than anything else. That's why I think since krav maga (As far as I know) lacks hardcore full contact sparring you only get to the "if he does that you do this" stuf. That really is not enough. In a real fight you might (actually you probally will) get hit...and you have to get used to it and not panic.....
Not panicking.......well that's the real edge that kyokushin, Muay Thai, Boxers, kickboxers, savateurs have over other martial artists and commom people that are not used to get hit and just freeze......
What do you think?

Tks a lot, Osu!!!

[James]

OSU!

I think as a concept, krav maga is great. Its like the military version of bruce lee's style....Take what works, discard what doesnt and eventually you end up with a set of kick arse techniques called krav maga. As to how they train those techniques, I guess that depends on where and who you train with. If your in the israli military and learnt it there, I wouldnt want to mess with you!!
But for the rest of there dojo's who knows? I have seen a few vids where they put alot of pads on and spar... with weapons, but that may not happen at all dojos.

As for drilling basic techniques in the "he does this, you do that" fashion, Its kinda the same as basics in kyokushin, but you need a partner to drill takedowns.

I agree that anyone who wants to be able to keep a clear head in a real fight, needs to know what it feels like to get hit, and kyokushin does a pretty good job of that. but what if mista krav maga gets in first and throws you? have you trained for that real sitiuation?



just my two cents...

BTW, I've never done krav maga, im not trying to endors it. + I love kyoushin!
But in my old style we used to do alot of defence work and if you drill it over and over and over for months(with dynmaic, yet controlled force), you do feel quite comfortable with it after a while...add some adrenaline and I dont see why it wont work in a real situation?

You know the feeling of being confident that your kyokushin skills are up to it, so you dont fear that bully and can stand up to him...well if you train weapon defence for a couple of years, you feel the same even if the bully is holding a bat!

OSU!
Weapons defence rocks!:p:p

[shidokanatlanta]

like i said before, all the reality based arts came about because of terrorist scares in recent years. so, marketing has made a lot a people a lot of money. if i felt uncertain and insecure about my karate, then i would have never done it. common sense is what's needed for reality. when martial arts dojos have to add "reality based" classes, they send the message that they aren't teaching effective martial arts.

[Dent]

Osu! ShidokanAtlanta,

Great explanations, and good coverage of the topic. Please have some rep!

Osu!

[James]

Osu, I had a rant, then realised i misread your post! So ive removed it.
James

[homer_simpson]

I have never done any Krav Maga before, and I actually have the same interest as Brazillian Beserker does about how Krav Maga and Kyokushin would compare to each other.

Based on what I know so far, Krav Maga aims to teach people so that they can master self-defense within the shortest time possible. It is a practical system for someone who needs to learn self-defense fast. Krav Maga is widely used for military training, as well as for those who are in the security business. It covers a wide range of situations, ranging from grappling, self-defense against guns/knives, etc.

On the other hand, Kyokushin has a somewhat different goal. Kyokushin is all about self-improvement via martial art training. So you get better physical condition, self-confidence, mentality, techniques, etc. However, in Kyokushin, all those come with time. So you can probably do a lot more with a year in Krav Maga than a year in Kyokushin. However, in the long-run, I do think that Kyokushin practitioners are better equipped.

[Dent]

Osu!

If we're trying to compare apples and oranges, doesn't that really say something about us?

With two such divergent purposes in training, and with an even wider gap in how each is taught in various schools, can any comparison be effective?

Osu!

[Raii]

I tried Krav Maga at the Fighter Conention in Oslo, Norway. And the instructors told us they had very 'realistic' training methods. For example, when fighting someone with a knife, they wore white t-shirts and put lipstick, ketchup or fake blood on the knife so that they could see afterwards how many times and where they had been hit. And they also practised at night outside in the streets and in bars to achieve that 'realistic' effect.

In a real fight you might (actually you probally will) get hit...and you have to get used to it and not panic.

So you can probably do a lot more with a year in Krav Maga than a year in Kyokushin. However, in the long-run, I do think that Kyokushin practitioners are better equipped.

Unless the person who is attacking you is a total amateur, you will probably get hit, yes. Training martial arts gives us (atleast in my case) confidence that if you should ever end up in a situation where a fight is inevitable, you will atleast know how to defend yourself. That confidence, I think, will help prevent freezing in panic.
And the more you train, the more confidence you gain(not confidence as in 'I'm the best, let's see you try to stab me with that knife', mind). So as long as you learn techniques that enable you to survive an attack, in my opinion it doesn't matter if it's Krav Maga, Kyokushin or Taekwondo or whatever.

However, I think mental training is important too. If you are attacked, and you get stabbed by a knife, and you keep thinking 'Holy shit I'm going to die', your chances are pretty slim if the injuries are serious. But if you keep thinking 'I am going to live', you've got a better chance of surviving.

If we're trying to compare apples and oranges, doesn't that really say something about us?

With two such divergent purposes in training, and with an even wider gap in how each is taught in various schools, can any comparison be effective?

Osu, Dent!
I don't think you can compare Kyokushin and Krav Maga. What little I have seen of Krav Maga has left me with an impression that it does what is effective, and the techniques appear very rough and unrefined (in lack of a better word), whereas Kyokushin teaches an ocean of techniques as well as ethics, and emphasises self-improvement.
Of course, if you want to be on the safe side, you can always train both ;)

Osu!

[Dobbersky]

Krav Maga is an effective style and if you look at the techniques as I have, studying Traditional Karate, Jujitsu, Aikido and Ashihara Karate, Everything you see in Krav Maga you CAN find in you Karate.

Krav Maga's founder Imi Lichtenfeld, was a well rounded Martial artist before forming Krav Maga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga). If you take the Pinan Kata for example you will observe that similar techniques are used in for example Pinan Shodan and Pinan Sandan for techniques against grabs and strangle holds.

Krav Maga is an Excellent 2nd art to do along side you Kyokushin etc, as Krav Maga includes take downs and take down defenses (even though these are also included in the Pinan kata (Iain Abernethy's 'Karate's Grappling Methods' (Paperback) available from most Books shops etc).

Remember the art you study and practice IS a complete Art, it is just how YOU percieve the techniques etc is to how you use them.

Osu

[TopExpert10]

Hi everyone....

Well I just saw the Human Weapon episode about Krav Maga, but the topic will not be about Human Weapon (I know the show has a lot of problems and it's not good at all).
Anyway, I was wondering. I don't really know how I feel about Krav Maga, at one hand It's really great that they train for "reality", but at other hand, I feel that they don't really do "full contact". One thing is to know the movements for fighting..........another thing is to really put that in practice.
Those who know Krav Maga better than I do, please jump in and give your opinions.....I would appreciate that a lot.
And a second thing....did Krav Maga and kyokushin have ever cross their ways at some point?.,....does krav maga use any kyokushin tecniques?...or concepts? Did Sosai ever foght any krav maga fighter or something?

Thanks everyone, and please, no politics....

OSSU!
I did the Kyokushin 100 fight Kumite before I was introduced to Krav Maga. After taking only 2 hours of Israeli Defense Forces Krav Maga I returned to my Kyokushin school and beat up the champion in one left punch knockout to the face(hand covered with bandage), I let him throw 7 round house kicks before that, low and high. I blocked the low kicks with defensive kicks with the bottom of my foot on his shin, and I blocked the high roundhouse kicks with the outside of my forearms. I later took the 100 hour IDF instructor course and became the IDF Krav Maga Chief Instructor. Just published a book that covers all aspects of realistic martial arts. The book is available on Amazon and named: Krav Maga - Philosophy and Application of Hand to Hand Fighting Training System.

[sandman]

I did the Kyokushin 100 fight Kumite before I was introduced to Krav Maga. After taking only 2 hours of Israeli Defense Forces Krav Maga I returned to my Kyokushin school and beat up the champion in one left punch knockout to the face(hand covered with bandage), I let him throw 7 round house kicks before that, low and high. I blocked the low kicks with defensive kicks with the bottom of my foot on his shin, and I blocked the high roundhouse kicks with the outside of my forearms. I later took the 100 hour IDF instructor course and became the IDF Krav Maga Chief Instructor. Just published a book that covers all aspects of realistic martial arts. The book is available on Amazon and named: Krav Maga - Philosophy and Application of Hand to Hand Fighting Training System.

Really?

:rolleyes:

[that1guy]

I did the Kyokushin 100 fight Kumite before I was introduced to Krav Maga. After taking only 2 hours of Israeli Defense Forces Krav Maga I returned to my Kyokushin school and beat up the champion in one left punch knockout to the face(hand covered with bandage), I let him throw 7 round house kicks before that, low and high. I blocked the low kicks with defensive kicks with the bottom of my foot on his shin, and I blocked the high roundhouse kicks with the outside of my forearms. I later took the 100 hour IDF instructor course and became the IDF Krav Maga Chief Instructor. Just published a book that covers all aspects of realistic martial arts. The book is available on Amazon and named: Krav Maga - Philosophy and Application of Hand to Hand Fighting Training System.


Hmmmmmm, I think Im gonna go with no comment on this one. Well other than 1....I was under the impression that there have only been a small group of people to attempt the 100man kumite......if you really are a part of that handful, noo, you know what, Im gonna go back to no comment...it may be better that way with the things I am thinking.

Osu

[Godai]

Well, I'd say all that's left is figuring out how to get around that damn kryptonite huh. Ok....that and Lex Luthor :D

[TopExpert10]

Really?

:rolleyes:

I've noticed that each Kyokushin champion had one favorite technique that he mastered and perfected. One of the Japanese champions's favorite technique was a low punch to the solar plexus. He used to duck to execute it. Since in the old world championships strikes to the face were disallowed, you would not really need to duck for low punches like in boxing. But ducking had not only a defensive importance. It served as giving a better lunge with support of the body weight into the solar plexus. The sport nature of the event while "full contact" still promoted habits of safety over habits of efficiency which would be in conflict in a street fight

[TopExpert10]

Hmmmmmm, I think Im gonna go with no comment on this one. Well other than 1....I was under the impression that there have only been a small group of people to attempt the 100man kumite......if you really are a part of that handful, noo, you know what, Im gonna go back to no comment...it may be better that way with the things I am thinking.

Osu
You can Search 1975 Oyama Open Hannover vs. Oliver When Dennis Hanover came back to Israel after the tournament the 100 fight kumite became a requirement for the 1979 team.

[Godai]

I've noticed that each Kyokushin champion had one favorite technique that he mastered and perfected. One of the Japanese champions's favorite technique was a low punch to the solar plexus. He used to duck to execute it. Since in the old world championships strikes to the face were disallowed, you would not really need to duck for low punches like in boxing.

Unless you wanted to get more drive from the legs such as in a boxers uppercut or better penetration by being closer to level with the target instead of punching or reaching downward....as always it all "depends."

But the bigger point is that by your statement you seem to indicate that this was wrong.

Yet here you seem to support it:

But ducking had not only a defensive importance. It served as giving a better lunge with support of the body weight into the solar plexus.


And here back to calling it a mistake? Not sure.

The sport nature of the event while "full contact" still promoted habits of safety over habits of efficiency which would be in conflict in a street fight


Either way....sport is sport and street is street. One has nothing to do with the other and even in every sport (fighting) there are different rules. Sport is a game. A safe way to pit man against man and practice "part" of what we learn as trainees. The other part is self defense (should that be the students choice) and it has only a small crossover to the sport training/application.

So I'm missing the point:)

[GJEC]

No comment - just the grin I give when someone reaches out to pat a fierce dog.

Gary

[jcarmello]

Speaking of Kyokushin and Krav Maga,

http://www.mhka.com/

I stopped in the Nyack school to see what they were about. Some very serious folks training there and training at a very intense level. Seems like a legit facility offering many different applications.

However other schools I have visited it seems like anyone can become certified these days to teach with a simple video certification program. Or a paint by numbers, step by step manual. I gauge a school by the proficiencey of the students and what is in the syllabus I am looking for. Krav Maga can provide a definite self defense program for some folks, or be redundant and a waste of time for others.

ShidokanAtlanta is spot on with his assessment. If there are any questions after reading his post, re-read it.

Osu.

[TopExpert10]

My point is that in any sport there are better athletes and lesser athletes. We often see a winner with less weight and muscle and better techniques and tactics. What I am getting is that it is better to learn the worse survival applications before you learn sport martial arts. When you explore the body's full potential, then you have more experience and knowledge to apply to a limited version of sports. If you do it the other way, learn sports martial arts and then self defense combat martial arts, it would take you more time to get rid of instilled errors that became a habit on the level of technique tactics etc. It is all about the training method. Just the fact that you do kicks and punches and throws and arm bars gives you a bag of stuff, but when the split second choice of which to use occurs, you may find it confusing which technique to pick.

[Godai]

My point is that in any sport there are better athletes and lesser athletes. We often see a winner with less weight and muscle and better techniques and tactics. What I am getting is that it is better to learn the worse survival applications before you learn sport martial arts. When you explore the body's full potential, then you have more experience and knowledge to apply to a limited version of sports. If you do it the other way, learn sports martial arts and then self defense combat martial arts, it would take you more time to get rid of instilled errors that became a habit on the level of technique tactics etc. It is all about the training method. Just the fact that you do kicks and punches and throws and arm bars gives you a bag of stuff, but when the split second choice of which to use occurs, you may find it confusing which technique to pick.

I have to disagree but that is only a difference of opinion which basically means we have different philosophies. Not right or wrong.

I believe in the other way around. Not in teaching "self defense techniques" to the average person who has no clue about fighting. It is difficult to take the average person who is suddenly in fear because his neighborhood has been struck by a rising crime rate and turn him into a fighter. At least not by giving him the old "if your assailant does this then you do that' scenario.

My philosophy is to teach a person how to fight first. How? By letting him fight and see what his natural tenancies are. I don't want to plant new unnatural directions and techniques in his head. I want to let him use what he has been using since childhood...natural instincts for movement. then I want to enhance those. Then I want drills and exercises to bring out the violence. I want all this done while actually fighting. What have I found to be the best "platform" from which to do this? MMA...that's right...sport. Why? Because it allows a safe way to go full on and all out to express your violence and also see what happens when techniques fail or get countered. It allows you to make the techniques circular by allowing you to not abort a technique because it was countered but rather flow to the next technique or extend the first one. Like a circle...the technique has no beginning and no end, defense becomes offense and offense becomes defense seamlessly. MMA is the closest you can come to real fighting without getting hurt. It's the platform from which to build upon.

Once a person gets familiar with actually "fighting" and all the surprises that come with it. "Then" can he more readily accept self defense techniques. First he must understand the fight.

For this reason I see sport fighting a valuable tool. Many sport fighters are just natural scrappers and they are completely comfortable with pressure and getting hit as well as figuring things out on the fly. A stutter in your step could get you killed. You can teach all the SD to a person you want but if he never experienced the chaos of a fight then the first time he gets punched in the nose he will pause. Maybe even for a second. He will probably reach his hand up to touch his nose and check for blood; it's natural. But that tiny stutter step can get him killed.

Learn to "fight" first learn the fine motor skills, and detail of specific techniques later.

That's my philosophy.

But then again I fancy myself a fighter. Lived in the street, fought in the street and watched my friends die in the street. We build our philosophies based on our realities and experiences. Those are mine. To each his own:)

[TopExpert10]

I have to disagree but that is only a difference of opinion which basically means we have different philosophies. Not right or wrong.

I believe in the other way around. Not in teaching "self defense techniques" to the average person who has no clue about fighting. It is difficult to take the average person who is suddenly in fear because his neighborhood has been struck by a rising crime rate and turn him into a fighter. At least not by giving him the old "if your assailant does this then you do that' scenario.

My philosophy is to teach a person how to fight first. How? By letting him fight and see what his natural tenancies are. I don't want to plant new unnatural directions and techniques in his head. I want to let him use what he has been using since childhood...natural instincts for movement. then I want to enhance those. Then I want drills and exercises to bring out the violence. I want all this done while actually fighting. What have I found to be the best "platform" from which to do this? MMA...that's right...sport. Why? Because it allows a safe way to go full on and all out to express your violence and also see what happens when techniques fail or get countered. It allows you to make the techniques circular by allowing you to not abort a technique because it was countered but rather flow to the next technique or extend the first one. Like a circle...the technique has no beginning and no end, defense becomes offense and offense becomes defense seamlessly. MMA is the closest you can come to real fighting without getting hurt. It's the platform from which to build upon.

Once a person gets familiar with actually "fighting" and all the surprises that come with it. "Then" can he more readily accept self defense techniques. First he must understand the fight.

For this reason I see sport fighting a valuable tool. Many sport fighters are just natural scrappers and they are completely comfortable with pressure and getting hit as well as figuring things out on the fly. A stutter in your step could get you killed. You can teach all the SD to a person you want but if he never experienced the chaos of a fight then the first time he gets punched in the nose he will pause. Maybe even for a second. He will probably reach his hand up to touch his nose and check for blood; it's natural. But that tiny stutter step can get him killed.

Learn to "fight" first learn the fine motor skills, and detail of specific techniques later.

That's my philosophy.

But then again I fancy myself a fighter. Lived in the street, fought in the street and watched my friends die in the street. We build our philosophies based on our realities and experiences. Those are mine. To each his own:)
I respect your experience and philosophy completely. I would like to share what I do in intensive teaching and i do welcome your criticism.

As an overview I'd like to mention that we are dealing with Human beings that have up to 2 hands and 2 legs and that their skeleton has not changed much in the past thousand years. The only thing that changed was the accumulated intelligence base due to faster learning and use of other experiences' and lessons from history. Let us remember that in the recent era it became clear that terrorists fight civilians, so civilians should become soldiers. We saw that terrorist with minimal training overcame a crowd of variety of people in all forms and shapes with basically their bare hands.

I give weekend 9 hour and 21 hour courses. In the 9 hour I use for self Defense, and the 21 hours of Expert in Krav Maga techniques. For instructorship, in the IDF 80 hours are alloted. Basically, to be an instructor you need to be persuaded that your student is able to teach up to your level of standards.

The 9 hours are part of the 21 hours. I prefer to teach in 3 hours session at a time.

1- Danger Analysis, Reaction Time, Knockout Hand Strikes
2-Basic Kicks Front and Side;
3-Defenses vs. punches and kicks and rehursal.
4- Release from Holds and Chokes
5-Ground Fighting
6-Use of a Club, and Defense vs Club with a club or bare hands
7-Use of a Knife and defense vs knife with a knife or bare hands
8-Defense vs pistol threat
9-Rehearse, continuous attack and fighting games
10-Other Kicks:Front Roundhouse high and low, Roundhouse to the side, back and full turn, Slap kick inside and out, Jumping Kicks
11-Knife Defense and Knife Fighting
12-"
12-Rehearsal
13-Advanced Combinations and Principles
13-Full Contact Fighting
14-"Aikido Wrist and Arm Locks and release from them"
15-Fighting Games
16-Other Hand Strikes
17-Front and rear Rollover
18-Defense vs machinegun threat
19-Rehearsal
20-Rehearsal
21-Rehearsal
And this is it. As a former IDF Chief Instructor I noticed that in almost each instructor's course during full contact fighting, the fresh student with no prior martial arts experience used to prevail on the black belt in many martial arts that joined the course. Unfortunately it was due to the unlearning process that takes longer than learning.

[Bardock]

Oh yay! I love point number 10.
Jumping kicks! Yay!

And Aikido too! I so can't believe not more people train in that manner! Whoa! That must be the ultimate fighter!

[shidokanatlanta]

combat sports are designed to allow full contact in the safest manner possible against a resisting opponent. all of the more lethal techniques reality based practitioners say are left out (eye gauges, throat strikes, groin attacks, etc.) are not missed. but they are not able to practice these techniques full on against a non complying opponent. a person who trains full on in a safe environment is going to fair better than the one who train with a set of deadly techniques (in theory). when combative athletes fight, they do all they can to hurt an opponent (with the rules). they no how to break the the same rules that govern their sport. maybe low level competitors may have a problem, but a trained pro won't.

[jcarmello]

As a former IDF Chief Instructor I noticed that in almost each instructor's course during full contact fighting, the fresh student with no prior martial arts experience used to prevail on the black belt in many martial arts that joined the course. Unfortunately it was due to the unlearning process that takes longer than learning.

I can see this as an issue for sure, although I am not so sure if it is unlearning as much as it is a "unwillingness to adapt" to a varying application. Having trained with a few combative method instructors, I have been guilty of being pretentious and ill eqipped to learn, prior to actually "trying" to learn the applications. Of course some of it came from bad experiences.

I do understand your position here, as I am sure many Sensei on this site have experienced people like myself as well as who you describe!!

Osu!!

[powerof0ne]

combat sports are designed to allow full contact in the safest manner possible against a resisting opponent. all of the more lethal techniques reality based practitioners say are left out (eye gauges, throat strikes, groin attacks, etc.) are not missed. but they are not able to practice these techniques full on against a non complying opponent. a person who trains full on in a safe environment is going to fair better than the one who train with a set of deadly techniques (in theory). when combative athletes fight, they do all they can to hurt an opponent (with the rules). they no how to break the the same rules that govern their sport. maybe low level competitors may have a problem, but a trained pro won't.

Couldn't agree more!

The old me isn't going to show his ugly face on this but I'm curious to a good defense against a machine gun :-/ My defense is to be no where near or to shoot the shooter before they shoot me. If it's in CQC then you have no choice but to stop them but if they have distance to pull firearm and shoot I suggest getting the heck out of the way.

Here's the basic question I want to see answered: If Krav Maga is so effective how come you don't see any of the top world champions claim Krav Maga as a style? GSP gives credit to Kyokushin... Please don't use the answer "because what we do isn't legal for competition". I've heard that excuse used by too many "traditionalists" and IMO if what you practice can't be applied for competition how are you getting any real experience?

BOTTOM LINE: There are more better Kyokushin instructors then there are Krav Maga instructors. I'm not saying there are no good krav maga instructors but there are too many that are certified via seminar, video, etc. I will admit I haven't gone out of my way to learn Krav Maga but the first two people I met who were Krav Maga instructors hired me to teach and took lessons from me. They started to do techniques the way I did them in their krav maga classes. Yes, they weren't former IDF and I'm fairly certain they were certified through a 3 day seminar or something, too. My point is you won't find many Kyokushin instructors certified through a seminar but you'll find "krav maga" ones that are if you look around.

Good luck in your quest of trying to say krav maga is better most if not all here will not buy it.
Osu-EN1

[Godai]

Let us remember that in the recent era it became clear that terrorists fight civilians, so civilians should become soldiers. We saw that terrorist with minimal training overcame a crowd of variety of people in all forms and shapes with basically their bare hands.

I can be prepared as I need to be, figure the odds of certain scenarios and/or I can be paranoid and start building bomb shelters around my home. I choose not to get too carried away. :)
We prepare ourselves based on demographics or where we live and what is happening there. The man who lives in a big city doesn't worry too much about learning how to drive a tractor or milk a cow just as the man who lives on a farm doesn't concern himself as much with understanding the subway.


As a former IDF Chief Instructor I noticed that in almost each instructor's course during full contact fighting, the fresh student with no prior martial arts experience used to prevail on the black belt in many martial arts that joined the course. Unfortunately it was due to the unlearning process that takes longer than learning.

I can't account for the black belts you dealt with or what their teachers may or may not have taught them. I don't find "karate" bad for fighting or self defense I only fault the way it may commonly be taught. It is the teaching methods that are bad, not the art.

I am only concerned with fighting and fighting to win....by any means. Not forms or specialty techniques, fancy names, history, liniage, rank or titles.

I have seen bad black belts and good yellow belts and vise versa. It isn't the dog in the fight it's the fight in the dog that matters. I have seen those with a long list of accomplishments who couldn't fight worth a damn. And I have seen unknowns who would beat all comers.

But I follow my own path and that is the point. It's a choice. Some are in this for sport only while others seek self defense and still others a form of art. There can be crossover also. But the bottom line is that some people like Mc Donalds while others swear by Burger king. The products are out there and people make there choices based on their own goals.

I don't try to convince anyone of anything and never try to push my methods on others. That isn't why I came to this forum ;)

Also on a last note in reference to the black belts against krav maga. I have seen the opposite also. You seem to only cite one side. There are plenty of crap Krav Maga schools out there just as there are many bad karate dojo.

On this forum you are promoting Krav Maga and insinuating it has something over kyokushin. Yet you can go to self defense forums (try Self protection dot com) and they think Krav Maga is worthless.

Once again....it all depends!

[clovisurnau]

Bro, You are really right about the thinking...abraço. OSSU!!!

[sandman]

I did the Kyokushin 100 fight Kumite before I was introduced to Krav Maga. After taking only 2 hours of Israeli Defense Forces Krav Maga I returned to my Kyokushin school and beat up the champion in one left punch knockout to the face(hand covered with bandage), I let him throw 7 round house kicks before that, low and high. I blocked the low kicks with defensive kicks with the bottom of my foot on his shin, and I blocked the high roundhouse kicks with the outside of my forearms. I later took the 100 hour IDF instructor course and became the IDF Krav Maga Chief Instructor. Just published a book that covers all aspects of realistic martial arts. The book is available on Amazon and named: Krav Maga - Philosophy and Application of Hand to Hand Fighting Training System.

I'm sorry, but I still can't get past your first post. Please excuse me for being skeptical, but this is quite a story. You fought a 100 man kumite, then took a 2 hour class which enabled you beat the crap out of the former champion. And oh yeah - you have a book for sale. Presumably the book will tell me how to beat the bejeezus out of anyone I come across. I'm sorry if I sound like an a-hole, but this is just too much for me.

Osu!

[powerof0ne]

When I hopefully become a Dento Juku instructor I'm going to say I beat Fedor, GSP, and Anderson Silva at the same time after a 2 hour course..coincidentally mentioning my book that is out at the time, too.
Osu-EN1

[FredInChina]

(...) Just published a book that covers all aspects of realistic martial arts. The book is available on Amazon and named: Krav Maga - Philosophy and Application of Hand to Hand Fighting Training System.
Osu TopExpert10, are you Boaz Aviram, author of this book? :)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51L82LxYr4L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU02_.jpg

[powerof0ne]

If it is why the different attitude from this article? http://stephiblog.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/most-krav-maga-is-watered-down-2/

I actually agree with a lot of what you say about "watered down" Krav Maga. You were a former IDF chief instructor for 2 years and obviously have real experience. Experience like that cannot be bought and you were known as one of the top instructors of Krav Maga by the founders. Reading through the post I just posted I think you'll agree that there are many "questionable" characters teaching "krav maga".

Sorry to have came off so rude earlier and I did realize who you were before Fred's post but I would almost want to call what I did something else if every "civilian" school started using the same generic term in Hebrew (i.e. krav maga).

I'm up a little late and sorry if this is a bit scatter brained but thought I should give credit where credit is due.
Osu-EN1

[GJEC]

It might just be cynical grey-haired old me, but I must admit if someone choses a grand title or bold boast as a forum name I tend to write them off ...

Anyone else do that?

On the subject of Krav Maga I know bodyguards who swear by it, others who think it's crap, so like everything else I suppose it depends on where you learn.

Had to smile at the notion of learning to defend against a machine gun though ... Don't try that with someone who knows how to use one.

Gary

[sandman]

It might just be cynical grey-haired old me, but I must admit if someone choses a grand title or bold boast as a forum name I tend to write them off ...

Anyone else do that?


I do :)


Had to smile at the notion of learning to defend against a machine gun though ... Don't try that with someone who knows how to use one.

Gary


...or against someone who doesn't know how to use one ;)

[kanku]

It might just be cynical grey-haired old me, but I must admit if someone choses a grand title or bold boast as a forum name I tend to write them off ...

Anyone else do that?

On the subject of Krav Maga I know bodyguards who swear by it, others who think it's crap, so like everything else I suppose it depends on where you learn.

Had to smile at the notion of learning to defend against a machine gun though ... Don't try that with someone who knows how to use one.

Gary

Gary, cut the guy a bit of slack......he did put top expert 10 and not top expert 1............:D i suppose we all make mistakes, i did with my original name.......but i have to agree top expert does not fall into the "humility" catagory taught in most traditional m.a.

and i have to admit Bruce errr top expert10 i thought you had died a good few years ago;)

i suggest if you want to be taken seriously you ask k4l for a name change, although i am not one of them there are some of the worlds elite karateka on this forum...respected sensei`s/shihans etc who will openly share their knowledge in a humble manner, perhaps you are one of these people........if you are, with respect, i suggest a name change?:)

[Godai]

I take stuff like this with a grain of salt and have to go with first impressions at least for the meantime.
I replied to his posts and had a little discussion with him only because I see it as a challenge when someone wants to make claims that I see as one sided. I am looking from an objective view and on a view of just fighting not of style or loyalty to anything. So if you want to debate with me I'm ready. You better know what you are talking about. So I gave a response, he replied and then I responded back....sparring :)

But here's the thing. We have a system of posting here that includes first introducing yourself in the intro forum. He didn't.

He dug up an old post most likely be doing a search on "Krav Maga" and decided that was his opening to promote his book. That was his plan from the get go.

He then, instead of saying hello and easing his way in, began to spout off about how great he was and how he kicked the crap out of the best of the best in Kyokushin. Ohhh, ahhhh.....we should fall all over that and want to train with him!! (or buy his book).
He also gave specific techniques used as if to say "I have the defenses" that you can''t get passed because Kyokushin has no knowledge of such things. The bragging of his foot blocks didn't make sense to me because I think I learned those and 6th kyu :D

Then the book comes out...of course.

Then in his reply to me he didn't "really" reply. He only went on to tell me about how his classes are set up and how and what he teaches. It was another infomercial for his school, system and back to the book.

From the first post I saw this as a commercial for him and his book. Even in his coolness of absorbing the "pokes "at him and not responding. Very business like. This is a Kyokushin forum and people come here because they have an interest or a connection. Not to say how faulted the system is. To do that they usually go to forums of their own style. This whole thing was a recruiting effort and if you as me he failed.

Also I still feel that by the debate between me and him he hasn't come out on top yet ;)

[Hangtime]

also I Still Feel That By The Debate Between Me And Him He Hasn't Come Out On Top Yet ;)

Osu!

[shidokanatlanta]

i'd like to see footage of him beating up a good kyokushin black belt. i'd be happy to have him spar with one of my black belts and he could use any of his lethal techniques.

[FredInChina]

Osu!
I am with Kanku here, instead of making him wrong, why don't we cut him some slack and allow for a temperature adjustment so nobody has to retract down the road? :)
K4L is a very special forum and can be surprising at first. :)
Deep respect to all of you. :o
osu!

[Godai]

Is that what kanku said? I thought there was a bit of sarcasm in Kanku's post :D

Gary, cut the guy a bit of slack......he did put top expert 10 and not top expert 1............:D

[kanku]

Osu!
I am with Kanku here, instead of making him wrong, why don't we cut him some slack and allow for a temperature adjustment so nobody has to retract down the road? :)
K4L is a very special forum and can be surprising at first. :)
Deep respect to all of you. :o
osu!


Sorry Fred but i was having a bit of a joke expert number10, instead number of 1 :rolleyes:

you have to admit it is a bit over the top, however i am all for your way of thinking

[GJEC]

It doesn't raise my temperature, but I just think choosing a forum name that implies greatness seems a bit full of yourself.

Maybe it's a cultural thing. No doubt some will bow to the keyboard. Brits are typically a hell of a lot harder to impress.

Gary

[FredInChina]

Osu TopExpert10 (http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/member.php?u=5002), may I invite you to tell us a little bit about yourself in an intro thread? This would allow all of us to properly welcome you, the K4L way. :)
Link to the intro section of the forum. (http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=122)

Osu!

[Dobbersky]

Krav Maga has its good bits but there's nothing new in Krav Maga. I've been on Krav Maga Courses I have 5 Krav Maga Books in my library and the techniques I've been shown in Krav Maga I can say "That's move "X" out of Pinan Kata X etc..."

Everything you see in Krav Maga can be seen in traditional Martial Arts. Practicing the Kata as bunkai in either Kyokushin, Ashihara or Enshin with a bit of Judo/Aikido will provide you with 98% of what's in a Krav Maga, only thing that isn't is Balistic Weapons defenses but if you know a Senior Judo/Aikido Yudansha they could teach you Goshin No kata (1 of the 7/8 judo kata) taught to Yudansha in Judo/Aikido.

To me Krav Maga is the quick Fix Martial Art, its origins were to teach the conscripts in the Israeli Army to protect themselves from being mugged and getting their weapons stolen by their "enemies" etc.

OSU!!!

[jcarmello]

Krav Maga has its good bits but there's nothing new in Krav Maga. I've been on Krav Maga Courses I have 5 Krav Maga Books in my library and the techniques I've been shown in Krav Maga I can say "That's move "X" out of Pinan Kata X etc..."

Everything you see in Krav Maga can be seen in traditional Martial Arts. Practicing the Kata as bunkai in either Kyokushin, Ashihara or Enshin with a bit of Judo/Aikido will provide you with 98% of what's in a Krav Maga, only thing that isn't is Balistic Weapons defenses but if you know a Senior Judo/Aikido Yudansha they could teach you Goshin No kata (1 of the 7/8 judo kata) taught to Yudansha in Judo/Aikido.

To me Krav Maga is the quick Fix Martial Art, its origins were to teach the conscripts in the Israeli Army to protect themselves from being mugged and getting their weapons stolen by their "enemies" etc.

OSU!!!

I agree!! Very well stated and speaks of my experiences as well. OSU!!

[Dent]

Osu!

Well! That was very entertaining.

Not at all realistic, but very entertaining. :D

Osu!

[Bardock]

Osu!

Well! That was very entertaining.

Not at all realistic, but very entertaining. :D

Osu!

You mean that his jump high kicks aren't applicable in those real fights?

[Dent]

Osu!

You mean that his jump high kicks aren't applicable in those real fights?

I mean that I'll wait for the movie to come out. Going to file it right next to Bloodsport. ;)

Osu!

[Godai]

Self defense is one thing and I am all for being a good fighter. Remember the guy in the neighborhood who knew no martial arts but no body messed with him anyway? The "bad ass?" Just being a good fighter....the wrong guy to "F" with.

If things start getting as bad as he described with terrorists and gloom and doom type stuff, then screw karate or Krav Maga or any other fighting stuff. Carry a gun....or two!!

In which case, if he were still here he'd probably say "a good Krav Maga practitioner would take it away from me":rolleyes:

[kanku]

I'm sorry, but I still can't get past your first post. Please excuse me for being skeptical, but this is quite a story. You fought a 100 man kumite, then took a 2 hour class which enabled you beat the crap out of the former champion. And oh yeah - you have a book for sale. Presumably the book will tell me how to beat the bejeezus out of anyone I come across. I'm sorry if I sound like an a-hole, but this is just too much for me.

Osu!

Osu Sandman!!

I`m with you on this however if the mod`s allow me, could this be the same man?

summer camp, exeter uni; about the early 80`s

israeli man wearing a blackbelt makes a general nuisance of himself over the week....spitting on the grass where people are training and the general attitude thing. ( the opposite to most israeli people i have ever met )

in those days 30 fights were a big deal, i run a bath for somebody who did one and i can vouch for the mess...

so after giving it large, mr israeli states he wants to do 100 fights claiming he was this and that, nearly as modest as expert 10

now methinks this is something i`ve got to watch, (only a 7th kyu then).......the who`s who of the british knockdown scene lined up against him...i watched through my fingers, as it was clear he hadn`t made himself very popular!

after about six fights it was bernard cretons turn and it turned into a vicious affair with mr israeli smacking bernard in the mouth, just as it happened..end of fight. now, bernard showing respect to some,(not to others!) pushed back in the queue about number five.

now i have to say matey was one hard b****** the no thigh kicks, no this and that all went out of the window, EVERYBODY was trying to stop the guy.
it got to bernards turn again.

so the guy had some VERY hard fights, you could see in bernards eyes he had one thing in mind and that was to finish him off as quickly as possible, it was BRUTAL with bernard appearing to break his ribs...so a quick mop up and people started talking again.

it was then "general kumite" with everybody joining in, all i could think of was what hospital the guy was in.

i had the fortune/misfortune to fight one of the biggest people i have ever seen in kyokushin..a 4th dan shotokan and 3rd dan kyokushin....he said to me don`t hold back try and hurt me, so i did........he "tolerated" me for a while and then hit me with a punch so hard my feet lifted off the floor!! and as i flew backwards seeing my life go before me i fell over matey who despite his injuries and being bandaged up, was up having another go and somebody had knocked him down again!! things were a little bit different then.

that was the last we saw of him but i think most people now respected him for his guts!

so expert 10 was this you!?

i spoke to somebody at last years k2 that remembered the incident......

so was it nearly 100 fights?......about the right age too!

[Olrac]

If things start getting as bad as he described with terrorists and gloom and doom type stuff, then screw karate or Krav Maga or any other fighting stuff. Carry a gun....or two!!

In which case, if he were still here he'd probably say "a good Krav Maga practitioner would take it away from me":rolleyes:


I'd love to see the world's best krava maga instructor trying to take the gun out of my hand ........without being shot :D

[Dent]

Osu!

I'd love to see the world's best krava maga instructor trying to take the gun out of my hand ........without being shot :D

Best Krav Maga guy I've ever met spent most of his time shooting. He thought it was the most important modern discipline. Given his environment and his firearms access, I fully agree. I also doubt that he could take a firearm away from himself.

Osu!

[powerof0ne]

Osu!



I mean that I'll wait for the movie to come out. Going to file it right next to Bloodsport. ;)

Osu!

If we're ever both in the Seattle area at the same time I think I know what dojo Mr. Dux frequents ;) I know who his Seattle POC is...we could perhaps pay a friendly visit to write in our memoirs later that night? :D

*whistles*
Grand Master Frank W. Dux
Tiger-Rock Academy
15418 Main St.
Mill Creek, Wa. 98012

Osu-EN1

[knuckleheader]

Sorry Fred but i was having a bit of a joke expert number10, instead number of 1 :rolleyes:

you have to admit it is a bit over the top, however i am all for your way of thinking

For the record. I'm in the top ten of something....:D I'll get back to you all when I figure it out....:p

[TopExpert10]

Gentlemen,
At some point I got a letter of recommendation from Colonel David Ben Asher the former IDF Fighting Fitness Academy as one of the Krav Maga Top Experts. That was more than 10 years ago. When I started with the forums, I came up with this crap name and it was not available by itself. So I picked 10 as easy to remember. As for ranking, I think that since I've certified at least 300 IDF Krav Maga Instructors, and since in each Krav Maga course we had at least one student with a black belt in something, that did worse than a fresh meat student, I thought I was a better instructor than some of the Martial Arts Mills Grand Masters. As you are probably familiar with Martial Arts Ranking, the first low dans are skills testing and the high dans are political ranking. So since I decided that Krav Maga should not have dans since it did not have dans in the IDF, I am stuck without a belt. I kind of like the Gi and the Quality belts like Tokaido. But I can live without them. I'm on facebook too, so you can find there a childhood Kyokushin picture as well. Did not have a great year in 2009 like many others, so I took the time and wrote 6 hours a day and edited and edited, and I think I came up with something in the ballgame of a complete book for Self Defense, Hand to Hand Fighting System, and a great reference book for any Sports Martial Arts, Gambling Martial Arts and Full Contact Martial Arts. I came up pretty strong about the differences of the slow pace civilian life, and as we all noticed in every walk of life whether civilian or Military you can get "various kinds of instructions". I reiterate that it is funny how you pick a reputation of a Military and sell anything with it if you have a PO Box in that country. It is funny how marketing works, and how the masses follow. I tried to be humble most of my life with the exception of telling students that wanted to spar in order to learn better that I am not vain, but there is not point to this since they will be on the floor in two seconds without knowing where it came from... But we are all aware of the dangers of getting caught by surprise or with bad health or old age... Anyway, after 25 years of living in this country and observing how "Krav Maga is being marketed and taught to anyone, I was happy for a while that I can still have tricks up my sleeve to counter anyone that learned Krav Maga in the US in case of need. But after September 11, I thought that with a world becoming too small,it is better that everyone will know everything. Since terrorism attacks Civilians, they should be trained as soldiers. As unfortunate as it is, it appears almost inevitable with our modern lifestyle.
So once all my brains is spilled on the paper, feel free to ask for any free advice. I cant expect every one of you to agree with me on everything, but I hope you will be able to adopt, understand, and use certain perspectives and I hope it will change your approach in somewhat. In the book I was basically comparing Historical Martial Arts Training Systems in all aspects. As we know, History is not one hundred percent accurate, since not all the times we get first source to tell about it. However we can use the historical stories to argue and learn from. So if you look at a certain Martial Arts Style, you cannot be 100 percent sure that it is taught the same or with the same principles anywhere else in the world, but when you see a pattern, you try to point it out, and you have to call it something. I am sure everyone would like to take a national pride in their history, but I think at times there are things in every nation not to take pride in as well. The idea in this book, although named Krav Maga, is to bring every human being that has no more than 2 hands and 2 legs to realize what is the best way to use their limbs during a confrontation. The theory behind the system is the Hierarchy of Prioritizing.
It starts with the end which is the pressure points that can end someone's life. Continues with how to get there, theoretically and applied. 150 techniques that were taught in the IDF in 21 hours.
As for the Machine gun defense, I hope I did not forget to write Machinegun threat! When every there is a threat there is a warning and it buy you time.
I am humble but I also have confidence in myself out of self appraisal, and I know I can contribute a lot to any human being that wants to learn how to defend themselves as last resort. I am not saying that a book is better than a live instructor, but it is an instrument to learn many aspects if the writer can convey them. The advantage of a book it its reach cheaply to many people. So I put the work, and I know it is better than any Martial Art book out there in the last 5,000 years. But then again, you never know what the outcome of History will be. Every person has his own mind.
The book deals with and argue every major argument and thought on every level of why we have so many styles and thoughts of Martial Arts, and how we should utilize our time in learning how to fight and training how to fight. What to concentrate on and what to avoid. How to think, and I am not talking about positive or negative or about clear mind or concentration. I am talking about complete instructions for how to meet a threatening and able stranger and control their actions in your territory. Osu!

I`m with you on this however if the mod`s allow me, could this be the same man?

summer camp, exeter uni; about the early 80`s
so expert 10 was this you!?

cool story but it was not me!

When I took Jujitsu, and the blue brown belt level I was sent to learn karate and boxing for the kicks and punches...
Jujitsu strikes and kicks were just open hand tap or shin lift to the opponent's groin.

In Krav Maga, not only you learn boxing knockout punches, you learn knockout kicks as well. The major difference between learning in the IDF Krav Maga to a civilian school Krav Maga, that at the end of the lesson of front and side kick you learn everything. The kicking technique, the closing of the gap swiftly, kicking on a pad or medicine ball, and knowing how fast you need to move to succeed. Attack kicks go against gravity. They enter the target in an upward motion. If you kick the chin or groin it is obvious. But even if you kick the stomach, the ball of your foot would enter the target diagonally up. As the front leg roll is to kick, the base foot role is to land and you lunge to close the gap. When civilian Krav Maga Instructors, that learned 21 military hours spread over five years, attempted to teach intensive seminars, they thought they can skip the striking and kicking and defensive techniques, and just teach weapon disarming. Guess what, if you go on Utube every kid with a camera shows Krav Maga. The other funny thing is you can see "Krav Maga instructors teach a technique that their students cannot execute and end up executing a different technique. I remember this in the Martial Arts. Traditional Karate Strikes vs. Full Contact Stance. Evolution of Karate, from the original striking of Objects and Practicing with Kata, to striking of a real opponent, and practicing Kumite... The idea in Krav Maga is not to make someone do 100 fights, 100 pushups, and run 6 miles everyday to learn the fighting on their own. The idea is to feel each student like a baby with a silver spoon the understanding, the execution to the techniques, and how to handle the whole picture in a very limited amount of time. It can be done, and it was done.

Is that what kanku said? I thought there was a bit of sarcasm in Kanku's post :D

I agree, it is like my book sales rank, the smaller the number the better it is...

I'd love to see the world's best krava maga instructor trying to take the gun out of my hand ........without being shot :D
I have nothing against guns. But history proved that there are scenarios or situations that you either do not have it, do not have enough time to reach for it, or it malfunctions. In either scenario you have no excuse. Oh and gun threat as well. You need to know that when someone threatens you he is trying to make you do something using fear. Being aware that you need few seconds to understand his demands, you have plenty of time to move the barrel away. Reaction Time.

[kanku]

anyway topexpert10, we like discussion, whatever your background i look forward to your future posts!

[Olrac]

Osu!



Best Krav Maga guy I've ever met spent most of his time shooting. He thought it was the most important modern discipline. Given his environment and his firearms access, I fully agree. I also doubt that he could take a firearm away from himself.

Osu!

:D
The guy that can take a gun from a trained/experienced firearms expert (with his finger on the trigger) without being shot.....will earn my deepest respect

I haven't met anyone yet who tried.....and lives ;)

[homer_simpson]

:D
The guy that can take a gun from a trained/experienced firearms expert (with his finger on the trigger) without being shot.....will earn my deepest respect

I haven't met anyone yet who tried.....and lives ;)

The best way to take a gun from a firearms expert is to shoot him first. :D

[Godai]

TopExpert I can respect your experience and knowledge but I can't respect the fact that it appears you came here with a sales pitch. To me, that is just like one of those annoying telemarketer phone calls.

Krav Maga may be fantastic to a great many people....and that is fine. I'm a little different however. I see the techniques as all having been done before. But i see that with many things, not just Krav Maga. I don't like "systems."

Just as in many styles of fighting, nothing is new but rather a new way of packaging it. Mixtures of Judo, jujitsu, boxing, karate and now the latest craze, ground fighting. There have been many who have trained this way long ago even before the MMA craze. People have always mixed things. These were the guys who knew how to fight. To the traditional world they became outcasts....sacrilegious!! Even before MMA back in the late 80's I had already proposed to my karate peers (I come from a strict Japanese tradition with a Japanese instructor) that karate was being misinterpreted and taught wrong....too rigid. I said it should look more like what you see on the WWE with hulk Hogan and those crazy wrestlers!!! :D I was convinced that karate was that way at its beginnings and we were practicing some new configuration and misunderstanding/misinterpretation of it.
I didn't mean it should be like WWE wrestling with all the theatrics but what I did mean was, no rigid karate fighting stances, rigid movements and such. specialized techniques. That fighting should be free flowing, preemptive strikes, wrestling, striking, boxing, biting, sneak attacks and everything you see in a pro wrestling match...just fighting!!! They thought I was crazy.

Karate for me isn't a way of life it is only more tools in my toolbox. I once wrote a letter to my instructor... a man known all over the world and Japanese so these things don't go over well, and in it I stated that I wouldn't end up in a hospital because I passed up the opportunity in a fight, to throw a hook punch just because "it isn't a karate technique." That's what we were being taught. I wrote this long before the MMA craze. But mixing things up is exactly how I believe we should learn. That is why I cite MMA all the time. Not as a "style" but as a way of training....a training method. Train hard, train realistically with partners who are truly trying to hurt you, (so you can truly test your defenses),train in more than one discipline and build the conditioning and mindset to glue it all together.

But this isn't really a new concept only that someone packaged it and now everyone is following. Everyone has been influenced by MMA and train in a similar fashion, Krava Maga is no exception and uses groundfighting and similar MMA features to promote itself. Many karate schools are doing the same these days. I'd rather go for the real thing. I already have karate and other things in my tool bag. I only need a realistic platform from which to train them.

Many of these "self defense" systems aren't my cup of tea. I don't understand some of it while other things seem interesting on the outset and others are just silly. How many defenses are there against chokes and wrist grabs? That always freaks me out. If you even touch me I feel I have already been threatened. Grab my wrist? hahaha. "THAT" is an attack. Why the fancy escapes? You grab my wrist then that means you already are minus a hand since it is holding me. That leaves only one hand left with which to hit me. If it were my clothing you grabbed then that means I have two free hands and you have one. Put a hand on me and I slam you, pure and simple. Your hand on my body, my fist in your face. No escapes and no locks...just me standing and you down seeing the bottom of my foot as I stomp your head. I only move on from there if I have to.

So I don't see all this stuff as being anything new or different. Just a repackaging for a new sale.

[Olrac]

Great post, Godai
I agree completely
You are repped;)

[Godai]

Well thank you! :)

Osu-EN1

[vikingsinmyveins]

as a veteran of the Swedish army, we had mandatory hand to hand combat / close combat training, which was Krav Maga ... remember that we had a lieutenant or captain who had trained Ashihara Karate for several years, can ask him if he knows something?

[Bardock]

as a veteran of the Swedish army, we had mandatory hand to hand combat / close combat training, which was Krav Maga ... remember that we had a lieutenant or captain who had trained Ashihara Karate for several years, can ask him if he knows something?

Indeed.. so did the Norwegian OMLT before heading out to Afghanistan.
(lots of broken ribs and bite marks.. so there was enough physical contact)

[Dobbersky]

Just thinking, shouldn't this thread be in the general discussion field not knockdown karate

Krav Maga, Kippap, Ketsi Fighting Method (as illustrated in Batman begins) and the likes are rebranded karate, Jujitsu or a mix of western wrestling/boxing. I do like Krav Maga but I'm not too sure if I would train if at all in just Krav Maga.

If you want western MA's why not look at the Greek Pankration etc or just stick to Ashihara Enshin or Kyokushin but look at applying the kata to realistic defenses (i.e. not doing "standard" 1 step, try doing the techniques from being grabbed by the collar/neck etc or even try from a sucker punch/football kick or a stab/lunge with a knife (training one ofcourse)) the technique used in Pinan kata where the arms "circle" is from what i can see clearing your opponent's arms/hands from your person.

OSU!!!!

OSU

[Ryan M Villarosa]

Osu.

From what I've seen in Fight Quest, it's a pretty practical approach to self-defense application. I like the conditioning approach to help facilitate the applications of techniques.

There is also a Krav Maga school (I think and hope that they are legit) here in the Philippines which my friend (my senior in Kyokushin, he's currently in Beijing), had an opportunity to attend for a number of times. His evaluation was the same as mine: it's a good cross training program as well as a breath of fresh air from the traditional approach to martial arts (please don't get me wrong here).

I'd like to note that when the instructor (a foreign national) found out that my friend was from Kyokushin, he had nothing to say but good stuff. Man, that's serious full-contact and conditioning stuff you're doing there is what he said. There were also instances that he recommended our dojo to his students for additional study. Naturally, our instructors adjusted our training session for them.

I hope that TopExpert10 attitude takes his cue from this instructor's attitude...

[TopExpert10]

Sports Martial arts serving the purpose of gambling entertainment and fitness were bound to extract the lethal techniques from fear of court persecution. In the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), a superior Hand to Hand Combat Training System was developed and named Krav Maga. Its advantage was providing training methods with optimal self defense capabilities while maintaining strict safety during training. The key to this system is the correct hierarchy of prioritization!However, Krav Maga known to civilians around the world is not the IDF Krav Maga, but rather another form of Martial Arts marketed to civilians. Boaz Aviram, the 3rd in a lineage of IDF Fighting Fitness Academy Krav Maga Chief Instructors, presents in this book the most efficient and effective form of self defense and Hand to Hand Combat training method ever developed. 150 techniques presented: 1,000 film strip formatted photos in with 60,000 words of advice.

Krav Maga - Use of the Human Body as a Weapon Philosophy and Application of Hand to Hand Fighting Training System is available on Amazon

[Ryan M Villarosa]

Sports Martial arts serving the purpose of gambling entertainment and fitness were bound to extract the lethal techniques from fear of court persecution. In the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), a superior Hand to Hand Combat Training System was developed and named Krav Maga. Its advantage was providing training methods with optimal self defense capabilities while maintaining strict safety during training. The key to this system is the correct hierarchy of prioritization!However, Krav Maga known to civilians around the world is not the IDF Krav Maga, but rather another form of Martial Arts marketed to civilians. Boaz Aviram, the 3rd in a lineage of IDF Fighting Fitness Academy Krav Maga Chief Instructors, presents in this book the most efficient and effective form of self defense and Hand to Hand Combat training method ever developed. 150 techniques presented: 1,000 film strip formatted photos in with 60,000 words of advice.

Krav Maga - Use of the Human Body as a Weapon Philosophy and Application of Hand to Hand Fighting Training System is available on Amazon

Part 2 of forum rules:

Advertising and Promoting guidelines
K4L has a NO free advertising policy.
- goods or services and products for sale
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You may have a link in your signature.

[FredInChina]

This section of the forum is sponsored by Krav Maga top expert #10...

10 is for 10% kick back; please send the check to K4L... :)

(How do they say Osu in the IDF? :confused:)
osu! :)

[Ryan M Villarosa]

This section of the forum is sponsored by Krav Maga top expert #10...

10 is for 10% kick back; please send the check to K4L... :)

(How do they say Osu in the IDF? :confused:)
osu! :)

Osu.

[TopExpert10]

Osu.

From what I've seen in Fight Quest, it's a pretty practical approach to self-defense application. I like the conditioning approach to help facilitate the applications of techniques.

There is also a Krav Maga school (I think and hope that they are legit) here in the Philippines which my friend (my senior in Kyokushin, he's currently in Beijing), had an opportunity to attend for a number of times. His evaluation was the same as mine: it's a good cross training program as well as a breath of fresh air from the traditional approach to martial arts (please don't get me wrong here).

I'd like to note that when the instructor (a foreign national) found out that my friend was from Kyokushin, he had nothing to say but good stuff. Man, that's serious full-contact and conditioning stuff you're doing there is what he said. There were also instances that he recommended our dojo to his students for additional study. Naturally, our instructors adjusted our training session for them.

I hope that TopExpert10 attitude takes his cue from this instructor's attitude...

Not sure what you are referring to, but when the crew of fightquest made their trip plans to Israel, they have contacted me at kravmaganewyork.net and I advised them to go and visit krav magen in Israel. They got distracted and found other civilian Krav Maga schools and other Krav Maga want to be Instructors. When I was a teenager I did the 100 fight kumite in Kyokushin.
Krav Maga in the Israeli Defense Forces is more technique and principles oriented than fitness. The fitness part is an addition. Most individual units have very little krav maga knowledge and they supplement it with fitness.
Krav Maga is not based on fitness. Fitness programs water it down in the civilian environment. In Krav Maga when you punch or kick you can theoretically do it 100 times even if your body is tired and have the same knockout force in each strike. The techniques are tested under exertion.

[Ryan M Villarosa]

Not sure what you are referring to, but when the crew of fightquest made their trip plans to Israel, they have contacted me at kravmaganewyork.net and I advised them to go and visit krav magen in Israel. They got distracted and found other civilian Krav Maga schools and other Krav Maga want to be Instructors. When I was a teenager I did the 100 fight kumite in Kyokushin.
Krav Maga in the Israeli Defense Forces is more technique and principles oriented than fitness. The fitness part is an addition. Most individual units have very little krav maga knowledge and they supplement it with fitness.
Krav Maga is not based on fitness. Fitness programs water it down in the civilian environment. In Krav Maga when you punch or kick you can theoretically do it 100 times even if your body is tired and have the same knockout force in each strike. The techniques are tested under exertion.

so, i guess the IDF are not fit individuals... since Krav Maga is not based on fitness... Besides, I said conditioning program, not fitness program. I can't believe I just read what I did...especially the last paragraph...

Man, this is getting nowhere...

[FredInChina]

(...)In Krav Maga when you punch or kick you can theoretically do it 100 times even if your body is tired and have the same knockout force in each strike.
Yep, perpetual movement, reversing entropy with no energy input & uphill mountain biking can all be done using the original krav Maga system. :)
(beware the civilians though!) :)
Osu!

[TopExpert10]

New recruits are fairly fit, and special forces are very fit. Some units are crazy fit. However under the Krav Maga department, you learn skills only. When you take the IDF Krav Maga Instructor course, you do have few hours of fitness incorporated to your training including the warm up. But they are totally different in their structure from civilian school lessons. For example in the first hour you learn Danger Analysis, Reaction Time, Pressure Points, and Knockout Hand Strikes. In that 45 minute lesson, the only warm up you would do is few jumping jacks, Hip stretch, and few pushups to warm your hands, shoulders, and fists. The style of fitness training you see in the Dojos and the military is used for fitness training and psychological brainwashing and resilience as well. in the IDF Fitness is a different story. While you have the special units where operators can run miles quickly and reach their target by foot, normally a fighting unit will have a newly recruit after basic training together with reserve older operator that was sitting at a desk until he was abruptly called for duty. 18 years old side by side with a 40 years old. But it all depends on the unit and the requirements of the assignment. Krav Maga is not used as a fitness mechanism.

[jcarmello]

Great post Top10! Your explaination is right on target with regard to P.T. (Physical training) and Krav Maga or any Military Close Combatives. While you can incorporate P.T. into a Krav Maga Classes syllabus in the civilian world, that is not the objective of the applications taught to the troops. P.T. is not applied when standing at a stantion firing your weapon at pop up targets, but does come in handy during live fire ranges and training.

Repped!! For clarity while being scrutinized!!

[TopExpert10]

As for combat shooting, the pt part should be geared to give the operator the physical capability for anything that his most likely assignment will include, and the shooting skills and techniques should be able to handle the obstacles of all scenarios. Considering that in combat shooting, you need to be quick, your body is hyperventilating and your lungs are forcefully moving, you would need a power grip. You will rely on a solid body position making your body a cradle for the weapon. Your eyes will be the scope of the cradle, and once you position your body toward the target, the weapon will slip and be held in a power grip in many contact points as possible, and you should shoot first.

[Thunar]

New recruits are fairly fit, and special forces are very fit. Some units are crazy fit. However under the Krav Maga department, you learn skills only. When you take the IDF Krav Maga Instructor course, you do have few hours of fitness incorporated to your training including the warm up. But they are totally different in their structure from civilian school lessons. For example in the first hour you learn Danger Analysis, Reaction Time, Pressure Points, and Knockout Hand Strikes. In that 45 minute lesson, the only warm up you would do is few jumping jacks, Hip stretch, and few pushups to warm your hands, shoulders, and fists. The style of fitness training you see in the Dojos and the military is used for fitness training and psychological brainwashing and resilience as well. in the IDF Fitness is a different story. While you have the special units where operators can run miles quickly and reach their target by foot, normally a fighting unit will have a newly recruit after basic training together with reserve older operator that was sitting at a desk until he was abruptly called for duty. 18 years old side by side with a 40 years old. But it all depends on the unit and the requirements of the assignment. Krav Maga is not used as a fitness mechanism.

So basically you guys are "ninja " or something......like the "mortal" skils from the "human weapon" show on tv? ......yeahhh right!
I don't know you clain you did 100 kumites .....you clain that you did, this and that....you clain you can take out everybody.....................well it seens you clain too much.
krav Maga is too "watered down" in US (or for civilians in general).....Ok so what are you doing in the perfect safe enviroment in NYC? Why are you not killing all the enemys of Israel?..better yet...why didn't you kill all of then a while ago? Sorry man I'm just not confortable with people claiming to be the best of the world and writing books to teach others to fight in books.
You could make much more money in UFC....i know it's not "real fight", it's just a child's sport, but you know,they pay some good money, and someone like you could take then all very easilly.:D

P.S: Please think about that.......you should stop writting books with de deadly secrets of krav maga can you imagine if it goes to the wrong hands? (you know who I mean, I'll just not say because of the politics rules here)....they woud conquer the world!.........:eek:

[Godai]

I don't see the point of this thread

[Dent]

Osu!

Sports Martial arts <SNIP>

Please avoid hawking your goods as a post. If you have pertinent material, your contribution is welcome.

Considering that in combat shooting, you need to be quick, your body is hyperventilating and your lungs are forcefully moving, you would need a power grip. You will rely on a solid body position making your body a cradle for the weapon. Your eyes will be the scope of the cradle, and once you position your body toward the target, the weapon will slip and be held in a power grip in many contact points as possible, and you should shoot first.

Could you please clarify your position on "Power grip". IME, rigid grip is rarely successful in shooting. Natural tension is ideal.

<SNIP>

Easy, Thunar. Let's try to debate the points and not the person.

Note to ALL: This thread has already raised some ire. Let's all keep it civil, and within the Forum rules, or it will be closed.

Osu!

[TopExpert10]

I never said i can take everybody down! What i am about to say that I trust my ability to defend myself in scenarios that are possible to do so. More than that I trust my ability to teach others how to do their best more than I trust other instructors given me a short amount of time of 21 hours. That is a vain as I get, and I do not consider myself vain. It is just happened that this is what I truly think. I still rely on the basic math that I've learned from elementary school to put things in perspective. To my opinion, anyone else that would be in the same ballgame would follow the same path more or less. For what I see most of them do not. I cant see everything, but where there is smoke there is a fire. As for the more noble reason that I am here promoting the "secrets" rather than trying to make a buck on the expense of others, after 25 years of ignoring the world of martial arts and seeing many go to their training like babes in the woods, I think that once terrorism fight civilians, civilians should be trained as soldiers. The bad guys will eventually learn, but they will try to attack the weak. It could be our wives at home or our children. Since we walk into a crowded bar taking a risk that we would not have enough time to block a bottle smashed over our head or a knife stab to our back since it is too crowded and we have to be close to three people we do not know at the same time we do take calculated risk. It is about time that we should think and share our concerns among our countrymen and beware not only of the bad people but those innocent people that are being used by the bad people as a shield. Those female sweet facebook profiles that have a male terrorist looking for information about Krav Maga behind them, lol

[TopExpert10]

Anyway it is Sunday, and I wanted to share a conversation I decided to innocently start with a fellow martial artist. I admit I could be obnoxious, but I swear I always have respect for people and mean well.
From what
I've seen with many martial arts, which we know were probably
originated from Daito -Ryu, at least jujitsu and Aikido and therefore
Judo as well, and while Japanese culture documents the use of kicking
it appears that Jujitsu never concentrated on developing a technique
for kicking or punching but was based more on fighting techniques that
originally utilized weapons. Then there is the assumptions and debates
of whether striking techniques were tried first in China, then in
Okinawa, and migrated with immigration. In each country it was
developed naturally or combined to another set of principles from now
days Yoga breathing for example, and we know that in ancient cultures
of Egypt Greece and Rome, boxing was used for training the Spartans
and the Egyptians used I think fencing training. Also wrestling was
used with fighter and animals alike for entertainment purposes.
Anyway looking at Dayto Ryu online, I've seen some videos on utube
with few demonstrations about knife defense, and leverages on the
articles of the wrist and throws. Since Uieshiba was coming from
theses schools and later turned his style to an art extracting many of
its components, like Jigoro Kano that extracted many components of
Jujitsu and added more angles to throwing, and then Brazilian Judo
which they call Jujitsu since their language lack the word Judo, how
funny that took many of the ground work and brought it up to standing
and semi standing positions devising new creative ways to get point.
Anyway, trained in Krav Maga reaction time and with years of Judo,
Jujitsu, Aikido, and few Karate styles including the 100 fight kumite
in Kyokushin, and as I was writing my book trying to find all the
answers, I was thinking one of the disadvantages of systems like
Aikido, and maybe Jujitsu and many of its origins as well was that
over time the training system was geared more to satisfy the activity
of the students, and by devising simple ways of training and safety in
training, it lost touch with reality in many times. to be continues
in the next message.

Questions like is it better to strike a pressure point, or to throw to
the ground and then kick, or then break an arm, or just smash
someone’s head on the wall or floor come into mind. The advantage in
striking and kicking is the immediate result if either fast enough
with enough momentum to the head, groin, or ribs, or almost any strike
to the throat or eyes. Obviously we need to penetrate or pass the
target enough to create the desired effect. If we need to first grab
someone and then choke tear of break, it takes at least another
second. The next question is how well do we know how to do everything
and other consideration might come up.
Obviously, throwing someone on the ground after they know how to break
fall could be more impressive in a demonstration to the ignorant crowd
with less damage to our training partner. Same as a bar brawl where
we twist someone’s arm letting him understand not to mess with us,
could resolve our quarrels without any problems, but if our potential
opponent is well trained in all aspects or just have good natural
instinct, we need to find the best method possible to use the human
body as a weapon. We then assume that our opponent will chose the
best line of action according to each scenario and devise a counter
reaction to it. If our opponent chose a move that is not what we
expected, he was less smart, and chose a move that took more time than
we expected. We therefore would be ahead of the game if we respond
quicker considering the fastest motion he can execute with a
simultaneous counter attack.
For some reason I think that systems that put more time in training of
less than the most dangerous threats develop less of a defensive
capabilities over time. I would like to see an Aikidoka execute a
defense vs a straight knife stab where the attacke lunges with a jump
forward and quickly retract his hand trying to stab again. I would
like to see if the Aikidoka will have the time to do a full body
taisabaki. Same with boxing strikes. I have a feeling that since
sword fighting techniques were attempted to use in a shorter range of
knife or fist, the timing of these methods is not the most suitable
for these scenarios.
Since the same safety can be achieved n training with striking and
kicking if is done right i.e using maximum speed of execution,
realistic range, but less penetration into the taret, it would create
immediate shock and will control the opponent as well as a headlock,
choke, or an armlock. Yes is requires more participation and complete
comprehension from the students, and perhaps overall less fun, and
more of a chance to injury in training, but much less chance to fail
in reality.

[TopExpert10]

So basically you guys are "ninja " or something......like the "mortal" skils from the "human weapon" show on tv? ......yeahhh right!
I don't know you clain you did 100 kumites .....you clain that you did, this and that....you clain you can take out everybody.....................well it seens you clain too much.
krav Maga is too "watered down" in US (or for civilians in general).....Ok so what are you doing in the perfect safe enviroment in NYC? Why are you not killing all the enemys of Israel?..better yet...why didn't you kill all of then a while ago? Sorry man I'm just not confortable with people claiming to be the best of the world and writing books to teach others to fight in books.
You could make much more money in UFC....i know it's not "real fight", it's just a child's sport, but you know,they pay some good money, and someone like you could take then all very easilly.:D

P.S: Please think about that.......you should stop writting books with de deadly secrets of krav maga can you imagine if it goes to the wrong hands? (you know who I mean, I'll just not say because of the politics rules here)....they woud conquer the world!.........:eek:

Since I am not allowed to attach links on your site as of yet you can type the following words on the internet and see my picture on the 1979 Israeli Karate Team. Boaz Aviram 1979 Israeli Karate Team
I am on the bottom left.

The 100 fight Kumite while not many of MasOyama's student completed was indeed required out of every team member of the 1979 Israeli Karate Team. Unfortunately, Oyama was influenced with some of the sponsors that objected to the presence of the Israeli Team. The 100 fight Kumite, in my opinion, is a extraneous drill where you incorporate several factors to your fights. You keep in mind that your opponents are your training partners. You do not want to kill them but you do not want to under-challenge them. A fast knockout will require less stamina and less time to be spent on each fight. With no knockout or points your fight could be extended. If you do your 500 sit-ups a day like I used to do (it takes 20 minutes with practice in slow motion with full slow extension)and you keep your breathing right, the chances someone will knock you out with a solar plexus pop are slim. Keeping the hands up and moving in is another key safety feature when you deal with possible kicks to the head only. Not so when you deal with hand strikes to the face. Doing squats with weights give you somewhat protection to your lower limbs. While groin shield are a requirement and often you get tested by the instructor if you are wearing them or not with a kick to the groin, are really more of a psychological nuisance. Less distraction without them. So it is not the worse thing in the world to do the 100 fight kumite at all. If you do 6 miles a day jogging, you can make it with no problem.

[Dent]

Osu!

So you mean 100 rounds of Kumite, and not the official 100-man Kumite?

Osu!

[sandman]

100 rounds of kumite - the only requirement for successful completion is situps and a 6 mile run? Awesome! I'll do mine next month :rolleyes:

[TopExpert10]

Osu!

So you mean 100 rounds of Kumite, and not the official 100-man Kumite?

Osu!
It was me against 100 black belts. I had to fight 100 times and each one of them had to fight once. All in about 4 -5 hours

[powerof0ne]

I don't buy it, jogging 6 miles a day will not adequately prepare you alone for a 100 man kumite. Do you realize how easy that is to do for somebody that's not injured? Jogging 6 miles, I guess I should recruit every KK fighter from half marathons and marathons then.

Jogging distances is only good at working up a sweat for losing weight, most 'elite' fighters do wind sprints, stairs, and hills, they don't do much jogging.

You're downplaying a 100 man kumite in so many ways it's not funny. You're only reinforcing my opinion about most krav maga being a joke even more.
Osu!

[TopExpert10]

Please accept my apologies if you thought I meant to take the 100 fight kumite lightly. It is something that I have done when I was 19, and I am just sharing this experience with you. For a moment you made me think that the real 100 man Kumite was supposed to be fighting 100 men all at once, which I've never heard of before. For a person that is in good shape comparing with the blackbelts in his dojo, it is very doable. My memories of my weekly training was coming home and taking two garbage bags filling them with ice cubes and putting them on my shins while I was watching TV.

[Dent]

Osu!

Trying to stay neutral...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100-man_kumite

Osu!

[FredInChina]

Delusion, selective memory or intentional misleading, we'll never know; One thing is sure though: this thread contains many improbable, unverifiable and unprovable statements. It started with what looked like pushing forward a book for mercantile reasons, and has become a soap box to advance radical ideas that fly in the face of nearly everyone's experience and common sense.

I have nothing against TopExpert10 and I am certain I could learn many a thing from him, as could many of us; however, the content and tone of this thread is ..."out of place" for lack of a better way to qualify it; it makes me feel quite uncomfortable with the direction it is taking and how it reflects on all of us.

I am not a mod, nor have I figured a good way to deal with this should I be one, but I somewhat feel that something ought to be done.
Maybe along the lines of requesting an adjustment of tone, separating the thread into simpler "one question at a time" components...

Thank you for listening
osu! :)

[sandman]

Osu!

I agree Fred...

[Godai]

Ok....I'll page back one page....no, never mind, I'll just repeat my last post.
"I don't see the point of this thread"

Maybe it's me? If I go back and read through, I don't find a point. No real question or attempt at answering anything. No conclusion to be reached that I can see, no reasoning, nothing productive. What's it about?
The nearest I can figure by reading between the lines is that it is one big multipageed advertisement.


But I have been wrong once or twice before :) No wait....I don't think I have come to think of it....that's a mistake. :D

[Dent]

Osu!

Right, it's not going anywhere, Closed.

Osu!