Psychology of training

[Spirit]

I propose at theory that is open for debate, But I ask that before one jumps in and gives their point or counter point one really think about this theory first.

Psychology of Karate is more important than any other part of the whole?!?


Lets use this as an example…
Knowing how to punch yet unable to use that knowledge to make the punch effective against someone or thing else.
You know how all aspects of the punch works, you done the punch tens of thousands of times, yet it still does not quite work. Years have gone by and Sensei’s, books, and other training have yet to help you climb over the last hill to improve the punch.
Is it training issue or is it a psychological block

How does “the science of the mind and behavior” come into play or better, how does it work to improve technique where physical training will not?

[GJEC]

Osu!

The great paradox of martial arts is that learning respect and "knowing one's place" can drastically reduce effectiveness. Constantly working at high but non-ferocious intensity and considering and respecting training partners can be as limiting as driving with the handbrake on.

Also, students taught simply to move (or not move except) on command often need "permission" to hit hard - certainly in a live encounter. It can take a while (or a few bad experiences) before you grant yourself permission to hurt someone for real.

Learning the skills can be fairly straightforward. Learning to apply them requires drills that allow maximum aggression and intensity - impossible on opponents in the dojo, so pad or bag drills are a tolerable substitute. Don't kid yourself that sparring is real fighting, as part of you will always be considering the opponent, part the rules, part your Sensei's approval etc (If you didn't you'd most likely be kicked out very soon) In real fighting the opponent needs reducing as quickly as possible to a non-threatening state, requiring a predatory mindset. (This is deja-vu, I've put this before)

As an instructor, decide also whether always keeping people calm is truely useful. In my experience hot ferocity is almost always more successful than cool skills alone, despite what you may read in the martial arts legends! We were all brought up on stories of wise old masters calmly dealing with fierce bandits etc etc, but lets face facts; very few will ever reach that level of ability - if it even exists this side of neverland. For the mortal amongst us, having a blend of both skill and ferocity is far better.

Most important? Having a switch we flick internally under certain critical conditions where fighting becomes nothing less than all out assault carried through until the bitter end.

Gary

[Spirit]

Gary nice peice of info!!!
But not sure if it touches on the question
Taking the fact that all that you stated is being done yet the end results is still the same as stated in the example are we looking at physical [ability] failure or mental block and is one more important than the other.

[jcc]

Osu! Spirit,

I would say it´s got to be psychological. People are capable of doing amazing feats when put into extreme situations and react sub-consciously - the power of the mind. Most people don´t get to use more than a small percentage (10%?) of their capability.

Given 2 fighters of equal strength, the one with the stronger mental attitude would normally prevail. Or, another example that has most probably happened to a lot of us, when doing a break, if your minds not there you most probably will just bounce off!

Osu!

[shidokanatlanta]

it would be in the mind. look at world class olympic level atheletes for example. they all are capable of winning the gold. all being eqaul the gold medalist is the one who is stronger mentally, not physically (as they are many times equal).

[GJEC]

Osu!

Q: Psychology of Karate is more important than any other part of the whole?!?

A: Definately - once the physical skills are in place.

Filling someones head with psychobable just confuses the issue until they are 95% there, achieved up to that point by focused repetition and sweat. Then it becomes more and more important as the release mechanism allowing free movement and application of said skills.

Gary

[Nix]

I would say it´s got to be psychological. People are capable of doing amazing feats when put into extreme situations and react sub-consciously - the power of the mind. Most people don´t get to use more than a small percentage (10%?) of their capability. I would like to dispute this. It is true that few people manage to use their full capability, as we only use a small portion of our brain (I think it's 7%). But this does not mean that we are only performing 1/14 of our potential, as there are physical and other psychological limitations - I will never be able to run 14 times faster than I am today, or kick 14 times harder.

it would be in the mind. look at world class olympic level atheletes for example. they all are capable of winning the gold. all being eqaul the gold medalist is the one who is stronger mentally, not physically (as they are many times equal).It's all relative, I think. Noone is completelly equal, (and I'm not sure every athlete is "capable" of winning a gold medal). Still, it's important to have a strong psyché whether you are an olympic athlete or not.

[Dent]

Osu!

Taking Spirit's request into account, and wandering around with this question and talking it through, I'm not sure I can give an answer based on the question as it stands.

Simply put, all parts of the equation are important. Lose one link in the mind/body/spirit connection, and neither of the others are strong enough to keep going. We are a unit, and either we strive to strengthen each part of that triangle, or we will never see the success that we are capable of.

Rep for the question though.

Osu!

[tmd]

I would say it would be psychological weakness as this can not only effect the result of the actual event but also of not pushing yourself in the training for the body to achieve it's maximum potential in the first place. The greatest weakness can be an ability to talk yourself out of doing that last push up, pushing for the line or going red mist at the 30 second buzzer, overcoming this weakness will make you a better athlete; the mind controls the body never the other way around.

[James]

I would like to dispute this. It is true that few people manage to use their full capability, as we only use a small portion of our brain (I think it's 7%). But this does not mean that we are only performing 1/14 of our potential, as there are physical and other psychological limitations - I will never be able to run 14 times faster than I am today, or kick 14 times harder.


This is a popular idea, the whole only using 10% of the brain or whatever. Unfourtunately, its just not true. We use our entire brain.
EG. one part of the brain is responsible for visual processing of various kinds, these systems are working together with other systems(auditory) the information gathered from here is further proccesed by checking the stimulus against your memory(regognition) which will then help you decied whether you need to act in response your environment, so your motorcortex will then be given instructions etc etc. other parts of the brain are repsonsble for many things such as balance, rythem...hunger....
There is space and potential for you to make new neural connections, which takes place during learning and development...but its nowhere close to 90%..

Osu!

Q: Psychology of Karate is more important than any other part of the whole?!?

A: Definately - once the physical skills are in place.

Filling someones head with psychobable just confuses the issue until they are 95% there, achieved up to that point by focused repetition and sweat. Then it becomes more and more important as the release mechanism allowing free movement and application of said skills.

Gary

I agree with this...once you have mastered the skills, you only need to let yourself go with your instinct.

However i think that this relates to real incounters and in competion is a different kettle of fish.

not much time to get into this debate im about to go on hoilday...really interesting topic though.
James

[Dent]

Osu!


This is a popular idea, the whole only using 10% of the brain or whatever. Unfourtunately, its just not true. We use our entire brain.
EG. one part of the brain is responsible for visual processing of various kinds, these systems are working together with other systems(auditory) the information gathered from here is further proccesed by checking the stimulus against your memory(regognition) which will then help you decied whether you need to act in response your environment, so your motorcortex will then be given instructions etc etc. other parts of the brain are repsonsble for many things such as balance, rythem...hunger....
There is space and potential for you to make new neural connections, which takes place during learning and development...but its nowhere close to 90%..



I agree with this...once you have mastered the skills, you only need to let yourself go with your instinct.

However i think that this relates to real incounters and in competion is a different kettle of fish.

not much time to get into this debate im about to go on hoilday...really interesting topic though.
James

With what you've brought to the discussion thus far, James, I don't think you should rush off just yet. Either stay and tell all, or take us with you! :D

Osu!

[homer_simpson]

I do think that psychological issue has a significant influence to the outcome of a sparring/tournament session.

I train nearly everyday. Whenever I stop training for a while, I feel somewhat 'weak' and 'inferior' although I know well in my mind that taking a break for a few days will not have any adverse physical effect. My experience of doing kumite when feeling 'inferior' usually result in a standoff (even against less-experienced opponents).

It is a different story when a kumite session takes place right after a period of intensive training. I feel 'strong' and 'aggressive', so much so that the fight seems 'easy'.

[jcc]

I would like to dispute this. It is true that few people manage to use their full capability, as we only use a small portion of our brain (I think it's 7%). But this does not mean that we are only performing 1/14 of our potential, as there are physical and other psychological limitations - I will never be able to run 14 times faster than I am today, or kick 14 times harder.



Osu! Nix,

Well, if you already think that, then of course you won´t :p :D

I think the relation between the amount of brain (links?) you use and your potential may not be that linear (or log!) but is important as is a positive mental attitude. I remember an interview on the radio once with one top sports psychologist who used something close to hypnosis on his athletes in order to get them to imagine themselves running their race, or whatever and winning. Very interesting and seemed to work.

Osu-EN1

[Spirit]

A lot of good and a few well...

Though I'm not totally sure that what I see and feel psychology is the same as what you all think it is.

I'm not talking about how much you use [% of brain] nor stories of this and that or how well you can spar after a good workout... it is the understanding of and the use of the psychological aspects of the mind and how it effects your ability to do or to reach etc.

[intwominds]

If you know a technique, practiced it thousands of times and yet still can't execute it effectively against an opponent, then obviously psychological aspects play a part in why its not working for you. However, there is no substitute for experience, and increased kumite experience in most cases would alleviate the problem. For example, I still have an issue in performing a good strong head kick in kumite, I can do them so they whisk by by a hairs width and enjoy the startled look on the opponents face but can't actually contact yet. With more experience I think this will improve as have my other previous issues I have had in the past. So is psychological aspects more important, I would say no, but they certainly play a role in this situation.

On a further note, psychological aspects can play a huge role such as when self-talk is messing with your mind. If you look at someone and say "Holy Crab (http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p130/revengeofc64/GIANT_CRAB.jpg), I will never be able to beat this guy" as opposed to saying to self "I can do this, keep cool, I can win this", well the outcome could be very different. You know the old saying, If you think you're beaten then you are.

[supergroup7]

Psychology: inner thoughts, and attitudes have a great role in affecting how well a person can train, but it is in my opinion that strength of willpower (spirit) will be the deciding factor in a self defense confrontation. I have read more than one account where someone with no Martial Arts background was capable of defending themselves only on their intense desire to survive the moment. I have personally seen moments in my life where it was my inner conviction reflected in my face, voice, and eyes that convinced an attacker to back away, and chose a different target. Conviction (willpower) seemed to be a more effective weapon than calmness, anger, or fear.

I am willing to be corrected on this viewpoint as I have only had a few experiences of facing attack (in reality).

[Dent]

Osu!

Psychology: inner thoughts, and attitudes have a great role in affecting how well a person can train, but it is in my opinion that strength of willpower (spirit) will be the deciding factor in a self defense confrontation. I have read more than one account where someone with no Martial Arts background was capable of defending themselves only on their intense desire to survive the moment. I have personally seen moments in my life where it was my inner conviction reflected in my face, voice, and eyes that convinced an attacker to back away, and chose a different target. Conviction (willpower) seemed to be a more effective weapon than calmness, anger, or fear.

I am willing to be corrected on this viewpoint as I have only had a few experiences of facing attack (in reality).

Spirit of conviction. A fine statement, and very good for the situations you describe, Supergroup7.

Yes, I like that a lot. (I wanted to give you some rep, but apparently it's too soon since the last rep giving. :) )

Osu!

[vapor]

Not to worry Dent---I had some rep to spare, so sg7 has been blessed with some positive rep!

vapor

[Dent]

Osu!

Not to worry Dent---I had some rep to spare, so sg7 has been blessed with some positive rep!

vapor

Good man! Must be part of the bag of Uber Mod (TM) tricks. Spare rep tucked away in the belt! ;)

Osu!

[vapor]

Osu!



Good man! Must be part of the bag of Uber Mod (TM) tricks. Spare rep tucked away in the belt! ;)

Osu!

You never know when there will be a rainy day...!!

vapor

[supergroup7]

*Blush* Thank you to both of you, Dent, and Vapor, for the kind words, and recognition.

I'm glad that my experiences, and opinion appears to be on the right track.

[Bloke]

You never know when there will be a rainy day...!!

vapor

Come to Ireland - every day is a rainy day!!!!

Now what was the topic again? Oh yeah Psychology of Training.

[Spirit]

mmm,

frustration setting in.
I think I need to re-think this thread and explain it better.
Personally not looking for the inner strength thing, not the same as what I'm talking about or should I say trying to talk about.

OK I do a bit of dog work, not training but working with people who have issues with their dogs, barking, bitting etc...
Now 100% of the time it is not the dog that is causing the action but the owner. They are giving out weak or poor energy that the "animal" is picking up and acting on.
Empathy, weak personality, excitement, you name it all this effects the dogs actions in and out of the house and is bad for the dog, yet human continues to feed the dog this energy and can't figure out what to do.
Yet when Shown that this is the issue less than half act on it even when they "say" they love their dog.
Humans humanize their dog which the dogs mind does not understand it is not wired for that type of emotion. Dogs are smart animals, but they are wolves [99.062% I think it is] and they are a pack predator no matter how much we dress them up and love them they are still wolf....

Taking that lead, if a dog attach's a person is it the dogs fault, I say no it is not since most dogs act out of fear, Even if we don't see the fear nor understand the fear that they are seeing.
As well dogs attach weak energy, this often shows itself when dog attach owner or children... Just because we don't understand it or see it does not mean it does not happen!!!
Yet a balanced dog living in a pack [pack being a home] is a animal that needs limited verbal communication and follows the pack leader without need to tell it to.

As a predator weak energy means easy kill which means survival, though dogs are domesticated, that does not mean the mind is and it is still wired that way.

I'm not sure you'll full get this comparison, but it does have a profound correlations to each other.

BUT this is the type of psychology that I'm trying to relate with Karate and train!!

I use to foster greyhounds and with my own greyhounds I real never had to do much training with the new dogs once in the house, the new dogs followed the balanced pack which followed me. I could let these new greyhound run free in unfenced in yard and they would not leave the area, yet people who owned greyhounds for years could not do this. Why was it that I could do this with dogs I had in my home for 24-48 hours when others who "trained" their dogs, took them to other types training etc as well had their dogs for 1 to 10 years could not do this.....????????

Psychology and the understanding of how the exact psychology of that animals mind works. Now take that and set it to human mind and what do you have when you train, fight a balanced karateka

Is this a better explanation ???????????

[GJEC]

Er - No

Sorry mate - I haven't a clue what you're asking or looking for.

[Spirit]

Er - No

Sorry mate - I haven't a clue what you're asking or looking for.

Yes, I believe Gary this is one of those things best worked out in person....

Or by someone who is better skilled at putting thought to pen and paper....

I can teach it yet can't explain it in written words!!! frustration

[Nix]

In other words, by understanding and maniulating the human psyché, you will be able to shape better karateka? Reading your greyhound story, doesn't it also have to do with respect?

[Spirit]

No the wolf mind does not understand respect that is a human trait and we so often do use human traits on animals that they don't understand and "think" they do or should.
It is lead or follow for a pack animal. Yes you can argue respect has a play in that type of environment, but it still is a human reflection not the animals.

Take the example of when you come home and your dog jumps all over you... People assume that is a happy dog, yet it is a dog in excitement domination. But we can't see it because we feel so loved and missed our mind closes down on logic and open to elation and euphoria of being needed....

[supergroup7]

I think that I might be understanding the dog reference, Spirit. Please tell me if I have the right idea...

Dogs respond to the energy of their owner. If the owner has a weak, timid, fearful, uncertain, or anxious energy the dog will assume that it has to be the leader, therefore it will refuse to obey the directions of the owner. When placed into a pack situation, the new dog looks to the more established dogs to understand what is expected from it. The new dog quickly learns who is the Leader, and works towards gaining it's approval.

You have noticed that many dog owners struggle to get control over their dog because they do not understand this concept of inner energy. Instead, they look at the behaviors in a human perspective. This confuses, and misguides the dog instead of achieving leadership position. The dog then takes over leadership position instead of seeing it's owner as lead dog. Then they have many difficulties controlling, and teaching their dog proper behavior.

However, your knowledge of inner energy affecting outer behavior allows you to quickly handle an animal, and achieve success. I believe that you are saying that this knowledge of inner energy is transportable to karate training.

Let me try to understand:

When teaching a class, the students will respond to the Sensei's inner energy. The Sensei needs to have a strong, confident, committed, and secure energy which allows the students to accept directions. If the students notice weakness, and hesitation, the students will doubt what is being taught to them, and will mentally assume leadership position within their minds. This will expound since each student is assuming their own leadership position, and will make teaching the class even more difficult for that Sensei.

A key factor towards training is the core group ( or pack) of higher belted students that respond to the Sensei's directions with confidence. The new students look towards these people, and copy their attitude, and behaviors.

Good dojo training could be looked upon as similar to a good sled dog team, where all of the dogs pull together at the directions of the Husher.

[Nix]

I guess that makes sense, I just fail to see what it has to do with psychology.

[supergroup7]

I just fail to see what it has to do with psychology.

Let me take a "stab" at it :)

When we look at psychology, and studying how the mind works, many times we look at it in an evolved humanistic sense. Yes, our thinking is very convoluted, and complex due to our higher brain functions, but there is also the more "animalistic" side of us that is contained in the more primitive parts of our brain. There might be a tendency to ignore the contributions of our more baser side pushing them aside to prefer logical thought, but studies have shown that the primitive brain has an active, and central role to learning new things.


"In this study, Miller, who is the Picower Professor of Neuroscience, and postdoctoral associate Anitha Pasupathy found that in monkeys, the striatum (the input structure of the basal ganglia) showed more rapid change in the learning process than the more highly evolved prefrontal cortex. Their results suggest that the basal ganglia first identify the rule, and then "train" the prefrontal cortex, which absorbs the lesson more slowly.

"These findings suggest new ways of thinking about learning," Miller said. "They suggest that new learning isn't simply the smarter bits of our brain such as the cortex 'figuring things out.' Instead, we should think of learning as interaction between our primitive brain structures and our more advanced cortex. In other words, primitive brain structures might be the engine driving even our most advanced high-level, intelligent learning abilities," he said."

To read more about this click here (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050308134448.htm).

To understand, and be able to manipulate the basic body, facial, and sound cues that naturally demand lead position would be of value to a Sensei. Also, we can add in the whole concept of positive energy, and how that fits in. For example, have you ever noticed that a person can play a piece of music perfectly, but it has no "soul" as we call it, than another person will come up, and do the exact same piece, and he will make it come alive. How? It is like there is an extra "energy" contained within that moment. We cannot put our finger on it, but we can recognize it, and name it when we feel it, and we know when it is absent. Perhaps that is our more primitive side of our brain recognizing something that our higher functions have no clue about. Perhaps this can happen to a Sensei. He enters the room with weak energy, and although he has much knowledge, and skill to offer, the students do not respond appropriately.. and he wonders "Why?"


Just the idea of understanding how to achieve, and maintain the lead role, and how we can use this information can help with training in karate.

[Dent]

Osu!

I could see carryover in Kumite, with the duck syndrome being in effect there too. I think that certain personalities are going to react differently though, and when two alphas come together, sparks are going to fly.

I think having the ability to take different points of view, and bring different intensities to interactions is more important than simple domination. "When two tigers fight, both lose." - Anon.

Osu!

[Nix]

Okay, I think I got it, though my brain nearly melted in the progress. It's not just about carrying that special aura, but how to manipulate the human mind in your ways and manners in order to achieve that special aura, yes? Very good, I shall take note of this while teaching. Have some rep.

On the other hand, Dent is also right. No two students are alike, and they learn in different ways, so the ability to be flexible is also needed. However, in a dojo, a student should also recognize the sempai as the alpha, otherwise order and discipline will crumble.

Durrr, my brain is not good at performing at higher philosophical levels. Me need coffee now.

(Apparently I need to spread some rep around. I'll try to get back to it later).

[Dent]

Osu!

Is it possible that someone would rise to the position of a teacher of Kyokushin/ Ashihara/ Enshin/ other full contact or Knockdown Karate, either as Sensei or Sempai, without displaying those powerful leadership characteristics?

I am going to use Sensei Gary Chamberlain as an example. He and I have never met in person. He is adamant that he will not strike a student to enforce discipline. He uses positive feedback to get the best from his members. He is polite and well spoken. I very much doubt that anyone in his classes has any question of who is in charge though.

I see the same strength in a number of the other teachers on this board, from Bloke, to Seienchin, Ksan and several others (Quite a long list. There are a lot of good people on this board.). All without being in their classes.

Between the positive personalities and self-imposed discipline, they have made themselves leaders and role models. Trying to pick apart the reasons for the success may be a worthwhile endeavor, but I think that we can get too wrapped up in the technical minutiae and miss the process.

Osu!

[Nix]

Is it possible that someone would rise to the position of a teacher of Kyokushin/ Ashihara/ Enshin/ other full contact or Knockdown Karate, either as Sensei or Sempai, without displaying those powerful leadership characteristics?Sadly, it is. Without going into details, I've seen teachers, even yudansha, that I hold zero respect for. Some teachers believe that the only way to impose discipline and respect is through physical punishment. Watch me roll my eyes in disgust and disbelief. :rolleyes: On the other hand, I've also had the delight of teachers who had that special aura of authority and respect about themselves, seemingly without even trying. People who could make 150 people instantly shut their mouths and straighten up, simply by entering the room. That's the way to do it, but I have yet to figure out how to imitate it...

[Dent]

Osu!

Sadly, it is. Without going into details, I've seen teachers, even yudansha, that I hold zero respect for. Some teachers believe that the only way to impose discipline and respect is through physical punishment. Watch me roll my eyes in disgust and disbelief. :rolleyes: On the other hand, I've also had the delight of teachers who had that special aura of authority and respect about themselves, seemingly without even trying. People who could make 150 people instantly shut their mouths and straighten up, simply by entering the room. That's the way to do it, but I have yet to figure out how to imitate it...

Sorry to hear about your experience with the former, Nix. As for the latter, I hear nudism is making a comeback? ;) :D

Osu!

[Nix]

Sorry to hear about your experience with the former, Nix. As for the latter, I hear nudism is making a comeback? ;) :DI shall try that, but seeing as I teach children, I'm not sure how popular I'll be with the parents!

[Dent]

Osu!

I shall try that, but seeing as I teach children, I'm not sure how popular I'll be with the parents!

I suggest you save it for summer camp, grading or competition. I'd be fascinated to hear what the psych situation would be for any prospective opponent. :D

Osu!

[GJEC]

Osu! Dent,

Kind words - thank you. I must admit that although I've never hit a woman or a child, I was a hard taskmaster for the fighters over the years.

Coming back to the psychology - the bottom line (as I see it) is that part of the role of the instructor is to create a challenging environment. Members coming in are encouraged to raise their game and learn to push themselves when they train.

Some have mental fortitude and sheer stubborness already and may be half way there, others need a nudge to get them started. In my experience, going at this too hard misses the point, as students then are trying hard just to please the instructor, not as a personal challenge.

Are we pack animals? I don't think so. I understand about different brain stems etc, but I find that treating people as individuals and taking the time to find what motivates them works better for me. Even something as simple as asking them informally what they hope to achieve, giving honest feedback about where they are and suggesting how to bridge the gap. With some, it's still like trying to wake the dead (maybe I need more stripes before I can do that!) so they just drift along regardless. (There's a very convincing argument that the whole purpose of taking years to black belt is simply to weed these out!) Having said that, some coast along for years and then suddenly come to life, challenge themselves and train like demons for reasons unknown.

I'm still no closer to answering Spirit's question.

Gary

[tmd]

I'm a slow reader and even slower absorber of the type of info being displayed here but I think I get it and thank the contributors for expanding my knowledge of the subject, despite all the dog analogies being lost on me as I've never owned one and cats, well cats do what cats wanna do!

I think I understand the point but am a total layman at all this so here goes; I agree with Gary we are not pack animals, in fact I think it's one of the things that separates us from most animals, our ability to succeed alone but I do get a sense of the 'pack' in the dojo, we have at our core a need to be top dog (no pun intended just don't know a better way to put it) and with this comes a desire to prove ourselves and therefor push ourselves harder than the next guy - this is not true of all which is why a good Sensei will learn to understand who work this way and who work that. I think this is why I like the dojo so much as it's all about individual achievement but with the motivation of the pack, and why having a strong Sensei is so important as without this it just becomes a social club.

To Nix point I have trained under Sensei with a certain aura, they may look humble but their words and actions are filled with experience, wisdom and the scars of battle - talk to a war veteran and you get same feeling.

[Spirit]

Well, I guess that got things a bit on track close to the idea but not quite.
Though I was not talking about a teacher in a class and focused on a individual trying to surpass the point of doing rather than trying to do.
You could use the pack leader analogy.

Its not inner energy it is just energy, and a dog will sit and come when called even if it does not see you as pack leader. It is far more than just that, but close to it.

As for if we are pack animals or not, well we are both animals and pack animals, or we would not have made it through the millions of years of evolution to get to this point.

Many Anthropologist believe that we received, gain etc [how ever which way you wish to look at it or understand it] or social skills and order from the wolf.

Pack animals can also be individual livers. Not ever needing or surviving outside of the pack or plainly surviving after all of the pack died...


BUT, the thing about humans is their are 50 ways to get to point "A" or 50 ways to reason how to and each and every ways can be the correct one.

So it is best to debate and hopefully learn [from each other] different ideas and ways of thinking on how it will help each student and of teaching and or understanding each others ways rather than to disagree on one set way.

I believe the best books I have ever read on how to be a better fighter or teacher were written by Ceser Milans the dog whisperer www.cesarmilaninc.com (http://www.cesarmilaninc.com)
.... Ceasr's way and be the pack leader.
Understand that even though these books focus on dogs they really focus on human and how we do things and think that effect a higher evolved mind [the dog] when it comes to energy or the subconscious mind

[tmd]

well, I Guess That Got Things A Bit On Track Close To The Idea But Not Quite.


I Got Close!!! :D

[supergroup7]

Osu!

I could see carryover in Kumite, with the duck syndrome being in effect there too.

Osu!

Osu

Dent? What is the term Duck Syndrome referring to?

Osu

[supergroup7]

Osu!

Is it possible that someone would rise to the position of a teacher of Kyokushin/ Ashihara/ Enshin/ other full contact or Knockdown Karate, either as Sensei or Sempai, without displaying those powerful leadership characteristics?

I am going to use Sensei Gary Chamberlain as an example. He and I have never met in person. He is adamant that he will not strike a student to enforce discipline. He uses positive feedback to get the best from his members. He is polite and well spoken. I very much doubt that anyone in his classes has any question of who is in charge though.

Osu!

Osu

Leadership, and power does not necessarily equate with abuse, and domination. Positive supportive leadership can still bring forth a strong aura of authority. I have seen this displayed by the High ranked individuals of Karate that I have met.

[supergroup7]

"Are we pack animals? I don't think so" GJEChamberlain

With great respect to what you had stated so well, I would like to offer that indeed humans are "pack" animals. We need socialization, and to belong to a group or we suffer. One of the most severe punishments known to us is solitary confinement.

"Prisoners who are isolated for prolonged periods of time have been known to experience "depression, despair, anxiety, rage, claustrophobia, hallucinations, problems with impulse control, and/or an impaired ability to think, concentrate, or remember." (2) Studies have also shown that isolation can cause "impaired vision and hearing... tinnitus [(ringing in the ears)], weakening of the immune system, amenorrhea [(absence of menstrual periods in women)], premature menopause... and aggressive behavior in prisoners, volunteers and animals."" Taken from here (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1898)

Usually when faced with isolation, a person will start creating companions to survive. One great example of this type of behavior was Wilson, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_Away) the volleyball, from the movie "Castaway".

I would like to suggest that surely humankind has evolved beyond reacting only in an animalistic way, but that we shouldn't discard the idea that within our brains still lies the primitive side which looks for a pack to belong to, can recognize the leader of the pack, and will work towards recognition, and acceptance from the leader.

[GJEC]

Osu! supergroup7

Good points -

I can see certain aspects of pack behaviour.

This has a downside as well of course, in that to retain the respect of the masses the top dog has no choice but to make life pretty unpleasant for anyone who doesn't buckle down and accept his ultimate authority. This may lead to punishment, exclusion and even banishment and by gad we've seen enough of that in the Martial Arts!

There is the notion of co-operative groups though that get most of the benefits of the pack without having to roll on your back if the leader comes close or having to sniff unpleasant places ....

That's my prefered system, a group of like minded individuals working hard and sweating together for mutual advancement, not just to dance to my tune.

I think we've evolved now, to the point that questioning and seeking knowledge outside our own pack is accepted. Many instructors have moved right away from the pack leader approach. Why? Years ago, we could have almost guaranteed that the instructor at any given dojo was also probably the toughest and best at everything. If they're still teaching now though, 40 years on, they cannot still nip (or batter) anyone who fails to show deference, so respect has to be earned in different ways.

Some have it, some not. In my Fire Service experience, the Officers who expected you to leap up and salute never really enjoyed the respect of those who kept calm in a crisis. Maybe that's the ingredient we humans follow most willingly, Hemingway's "grace under pressure", not pack dominance rituals.

Gary

[supergroup7]

"without having to roll on your back if the leader comes close or having to sniff unpleasant places ...."

Ha ha ha! What an image!!! Ha ha ha...

I agree that your description of a goal oriented group of equally respected individuals is what would work best when looking at group dynamics. It's true that we have seen far too much punishment, exclusion, and banishment within not only Martial Arts but in other societal organizations.

Even in this situation, however, I see the need for a leader to guide, and provide a focus for the activity. In my opinion, a group effort does not go far when each person tries to dictate the direction of the group. Going back to the sled dog metaphor, imagine if each dog decided to strike out on it's own direction. I doubt that the sled would do more than crash over on it's side. There needs to be a Musher to guide the dogs into a combined effort.

Not every person has matured into a place where they value the authority of calmness, respect, and "grace under pressure" ( I am thinking about some of examples that I've met during public schooling.) There are some people who see this as weakness, and the only language that they understand is domination, power, and pain. Would I want the responsibility of attempting to teach Karate to such a person? I cringe at the thought, but then, would not these people benefit the most from learning the philosophy of Karate?

[Dent]

Osu!

Osu

Dent? What is the term Duck Syndrome referring to?

Osu

Look at Ducks, Supergroup7. When they are in the water, they might be moving rapidly, but they appear unruffled and unhurried. If we could see below the surface, we'd see those little webbed feet steaming along at 100mph! :D

When in a confrontation, an appearance of confidence and capability are essential, and even if our hearts are racing along like those duck feet, we have to be calm and contained on the surface.

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!


Leadership, and power does not necessarily equate with abuse, and domination. Positive supportive leadership can still bring forth a strong aura of authority. I have seen this displayed by the High ranked individuals of Karate that I have met.

No, not at all. That's why I used some of the Sensei on this board as examples. Soft and hard in one.

Osu!

[tmd]

leadership is an interesting trait - I used to think that the best leaders always lead by example and that you would always get a better response from your students as one who had been their done that but an example that flies in the face of this is the English Premier league (Football). This is sport played at the very highest levels and yet the some of the most successful managers of recent times have either hardly or never played at so much as a moderate level compared to thier players. They are all well trained man-managers and use the kind of techs spoken of in this and other threads by Gary. I think a good Sensei would seek out this kind of training to enable him to get the best out of his students.

[Dent]

Osu!

I think a good Sensei would seek out this kind of training to enable him to get the best out of his students.

Yes, TMD, I think that times have changed, and while Karate is not a sport in and of itself, there is a lot to be learned from those in the field of sporting excellence.

Taking coaching courses, health and fitness diplomas, first aid, leadership training etc, will make us more capable and well rounded individuals. Not everything will be directly applicable to Karate, but it may have an impact on other parts of our life.

Osu!