View Full Version : ever thought the tettsui, oya yubi ken or uraken seemed unrealistic?
Martin H
02-07-2009, 10:47 AM
ever thought the tettsui (hammer fist), oya yubi ken (strike with the thumb side of the fist) or uraken (strike with the backhand, but traditionally hitting with the front side of the knuckles) strikes seemed unrealistic?
How about doing them with one of these in the hand.
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/013/005/images/002.jpg
the traditional okinawan knuckledusters (traditional but not very well known karate kobudo weapons) known as tecchi, in wooden and iron version. the points sticks out about a inch on either side of the closed fist, with the pointed iron ring (held with a finger inside the ring), or wodden point, sticking out in the front of the fist.
There is also the tekko, derived from a (what is the english word for the part of the saddle that you put your foot in?). Also used as a knuckleduster.
http://www.geocities.com/cbfisher2000/shihan8/tekko2a.jpg
But personally I think the tecchu is nastier since it hidden.
Just something to think about when you are doing odd hand techniques.
The "empty hand" was not always empty, and self defense is not the same as competition.
sandman
02-07-2009, 02:03 PM
...what is the english word for the part of the saddle that you put your foot in?
Osu!
That's the stirrup.
Very nasty looking "empty hand" implements there - I definitely would not want to receive a hammer fist from one of those!
kakatootoshi
02-07-2009, 02:45 PM
I have never doubted the effectiveness of those open-hand techniques. On the other hand I consider the use of these weapons to increase striking power in street situations impractical due to the local law in many countries. But that may not affect the use of the improvised versions (pen, keys, etc) when needed.
OSU!
Martin H
02-07-2009, 04:51 PM
yes. carrying and using one today would be legally punishable in any civilized country.
But back then it was ok.
What I wanted was to give a hint on why some of our techniques may seems a bit strange. We are doing them without a vital component that they were designed to be used with.
Think of it as sword skill. Noone would get away with carrying and using one of those in a modern society either.
kakatootoshi
02-07-2009, 05:45 PM
I think padwork and makiwara with these techniques, just as what we do with Seiken, is also good way of training.
Thunderstorm
02-07-2009, 08:59 PM
ever thought the tettsui (hammer fist), oya yubi ken (strike with the thumb side of the fist) or uraken (strike with the backhand, but traditionally hitting with the front side of the knuckles) strikes seemed unrealistic?
I don't consider it unrealistic as much as curious why so few people are able to teach how to apply them actively. Wouldn't it be the case that a tettsui uchi could be applied the same way, say, a shuto sakotsu uchi could be?
YouTube - Kyokushin Kihon - Shuto Sakotsu Uchi
As for uraken, I wonder why no one uses it in kumite. It's usually derided by most karateka as being an unrealistic technique limited to point-karate/point-taekwondo, but then I wonder why it's being drilled in class.
YouTube - Kyokushuin Strikes - Uraken Hizo Uchi
How do I get these things not to embed the videos?
Osu!
I used Tettsui in High School to excellent effect. Tall people didn't like it much... :cool:
I've used Ipponken in a situation that degenerated into a stumbling/ grappling screw up. Short, sharp, and very useful. (Although not at all expected. No idea how the subconscious pulled that one out.)
Uraken is best used on the head, and a bit difficult to practice in the Dojo, unless protective gear is donned, and head contact is allowed. I've only seen it used outside of the Dojo once, and by a fairly big guy, but the results were almost comic, as the recipient stumbled all over the place before finding the bushes face first! :D
Osu!
Paedde
02-10-2009, 02:49 PM
Maybe a quick look to MMA may also reveal some applications.
Hammer Fists are used a lot in ground and pound and fedor is known for his long hook hitting with the thumb.
No idea about uraken thought, may be because I can't even bend my wrist enough yet...
Osu
I have no problem seeing uraken gamen uchi (uraken shomen uchi) as beeing very effective on the streets. It's incredibly fast, and will break a nose easily if you do it right.
bitterbut
02-10-2009, 05:17 PM
Martin...
Nice question!!!!!!!!! yes
I would think that each of us could come up with both
hey this is wierd and I love this tech...
NIX
you mean damage a nose, since no bones in the nose, A....
NIX
you mean damage a nose, since no bones in the nose, A....Actually, there are (nasal bone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_bone)). However, "breaking the nose" typically refers to damaging the cartilage. Point is it hurts. :)
Osu!
NIX
you mean damage a nose, since no bones in the nose, A....
As I've seen in my x-rays, there is clearly a bone that can be broken. :D The cartilage is nothing to worry about, but when the whole nose is facing off to the side, and you're coughing up the blood running down your throat, that's the bone that's broken. ;)
Osu!
BigAl
02-10-2009, 07:49 PM
I never thought any of those three were unrealistic to be honest, but I see where you're going with this. Cool :)
Tettsui were actually used a lot by bare-knuckle boxers back in the day, they called them "choppers." If there wasn't a quick knockout, bare knuckle matches usually went into wrestling matches and using a chopper on the back of a guy's head was a good way to score a KO.
Tettsui
02-14-2009, 12:54 AM
The move that confuses me most is Uraken Mawashi Uchi. How do you use this technique?
Osu!
The move that confuses me most is Uraken Mawashi Uchi. How do you use this technique?
Ideally by pivoting to the outside of an opponent, and striking the top of the spine, or the base of the skull. I've been tagged with it a couple of times when working with a particularly rangy fighter. It hurts enough to pay back with a little Gedan Kakato action. ;)
Osu!
Thunderstorm
03-08-2009, 09:11 PM
the traditional okinawan knuckledusters (traditional but not very well known karate kobudo weapons) known as tecchi, in wooden and iron version. the points sticks out about a inch on either side of the closed fist, with the pointed iron ring (held with a finger inside the ring), or wodden point, sticking out in the front of the fist.
There is also the tekko, derived from a (what is the english word for the part of the saddle that you put your foot in?). Also used as a knuckleduster.
But personally I think the tecchu is nastier since it hidden.
Just something to think about when you are doing odd hand techniques.
The "empty hand" was not always empty, and self defense is not the same as competition.
AFAIK, the ones you listed first (the stick-like implements) also are found in mainland Japanese kobudo as well; they are known as suntetsu and are occasionally taught in traditional jujutsu and in other such related methods.
The word you're thinking of is "stirrup".
It's true, not all empty-hand techniques necessarily were truly empty-handed (some people in some arts view things such as shuto and tettsui as proxies for weapons tactics as well).
What I find rather strange about knuckle-duster-type devices though is that they'd presumably have to already be on the wearer's hands at the time the fight broke out; there'd rarely be an "iai" moment for such a thing. :p Though I can see that some people practice the suntetsu-type weapon technique as a self-defense form in the form of "stick keychains" and the like, but were knuckle dusters truly weapons of self-defense?