QUESTION: Ashihara Karate Techiques

[Dobbersky]

OSU-EN2

I was asked a question by one of my students and I always tell them if I cannot answer it I will get back to them.

The question was:-

"Why are there no defences from grabs or holds in the Ashihara Kata?"

I was silenced as I immediately went through every combination for every Kata I know and not one is a defence or counter to a grab or a hold. Will anyone assist me with this.

I know that, via a Wado perspective, the Pinans and other Traditional Kata do have counters and defences against grabs and holds.

I have not seen any of the Goshin Kata so I am wondering if these are part of them

I appreciate you time and guidance

Osu-EN1

[Nix]

Oh, but there are. Kakewake uke, performed before any kata. :)

It's a good question, though. I think it is because Ashihara is supposed to be fast-paced and aggresive stand-up karate, different from jiu-jitsu, aikido and the like where this is practiced more. In terms of karate, a grab isn't really considered an "attack". On the other hand, you might want to avoid beeing grabbed like you would avoid any other attack, so the defence against R chudan tsuki might be the same if it was a stab with a knife or even a grab.

As you know, each "series" of Ashihara kata has a specific theme. Soshin no kata focuses on distance, Kihon no kata on basic positioning, Nage no kata on throws and so on. I suspect that Goshien no kata was meant to address things like grabs, but I don't know.

That beeing said, we do practice how to counter grabs and holds in a kumite perspective, and also some joint locks applicable in a self-defence situation.

I hope someone else is of more help than I.

[Dent]

Osu!

While my experience with Ashihara does not equal 1/100th of either of yours, I found that Hoosain Narker, Kaicho of the AKI explained the Kata including very practical defenses against grips and holds. (FWIW, I considered this to be some of my favorite parts of the applications. I'm a lot less likely to pull off a spinning hook kick than a counter-lock and strike.)

Osu!

[olyckan]

I have thought about this too. All I can say is that late kanchos philosophy I think was to strike as soon as someone is making a move towards you= sabaki.. Example someone tries to grab my wrist I would probably hiji his nose if I truly was to use "sabaki".. One of my old Senpais as I was a white belt had a fantastic way of putting it out to us. He was quite old and not so agile any more, however he always showed us the simple but effective way (this could also be called over violence).. Some one do this, you counter with the elbow, and grab the hair and knee the head etc etc... So I think late kanchos idea was to strike before you get grabbed.. If you are interested of picking up selfdefence against grabs there is a wonderful kyokushin one out as a instructive dvd. Its made of a 4th dan in Hawaii i think.. I train it usually once a month just to keep it up.. Simple and effective techniqes. OSU!

[Dobbersky]

Osu!!

I appreciate all the thoughts and words of those who have commented, but I am surpised at how the amount of respondees.

Another question on top of the original question which is linked.,

How would my Ashihara Karate cope with a Jujitsu specialist in a streetfight or a competition?

I know how to react via my Wado Ryu and Jujitsu training but wanted to use an Ashihara perspective on a defence and Counter.

Osu!!!

[kakatootoshi]

How would my Ashihara Karate cope with a Jujitsu specialist in a streetfight or a competition?

I cannot answer this question from an Ashihara point of view. If I replace Ashihara with Kyokushin in your question and ask myself, my answers are clear.

In a street fight, I will try strike the vital points on his face as fast and as hard, and I will not do anything which let him catch my limbs (like chudan or jodan geri). These comes from my training and I do not think it can be called "Kyokushin theory". Is there such thing as "Kyokushin theory"?

In a competition (I suppose it is MMA), there should be time for preparation and I will take grappling classes. I will not pretend that "Kyokushin alone can let me survive ground fighting".

I do not know Ashihara Kata, but in Kyokushin Kata sometimes Chudan Uchi/Soto Uke, Gedan Barai, some other circular movements of the upper arms or even body rotation is used (supposedly) to break grabs. Are there these movements in Ashihara Kata?

And for the Ashihara Goshinjitsu which I have seen, Mawashi Uke is an important weapon to break grabs. Makikomi Nage and Kannuki (both are derived from Mawashi Uke) are featured in many Ashihara demonstrations and I think you can link these two techniques to the Kata? And not to forget the strikes in Ashihara.

Osu!!
I appreciate all the thoughts and words of those who have commented, but I am surpised at how the amount of respondees

If I am correct do you mean there are too few people answering this question?

OSU!

[Nix]

How would my Ashihara Karate cope with a Jujitsu specialist in a streetfight or a competition?Ashihara Karate is designed to be "real fighting", no bullsxxt karate. Sendai Kancho Ashihara was a fighter, and before he entered the dojo of Oyama Karate (as it was called back then), he fought on the streets. I'm not trying to bash jujitsu, but I would dare say that in a fighting situation, be it on the streets or in the ring, Ashihara Karate is excellent.

Take Jissen no kata. It's brutal and it's explosive, and in my opinion close to the very idea of Ashihara Karate. Short and explosive combinations with stuff that works. Soto uke while moving slightly to the side, strike to the head, elbow to the face. Job done. You will also notice that this kata does not end with a throw, but standing up and ready.



In a competition (I suppose it is MMA), there should be time for preparation and I will take grappling classes. I will not pretend that "Kyokushin alone can let me survive ground fighting".I feel the same. Just like I would assume a grappler cross trains striking and kicking to prepare himself for MMA, I would also practice grappling. No art is whole - try to excell at everything, and you will excell at nothing.

I do not know Ashihara Kata, but in Kyokushin Kata sometimes Chudan Uchi/Soto Uke, Gedan Barai, some other circular movements of the upper arms or even body rotation is used (supposedly) to break grabs. Are there these movements in Ashihara Kata?Unlike Kyokushin, the bunkai is known and practiced often. However, the combinations in the kata can of course be applied to different attacks. If the bunkai says R chudan mae geri, it would probably work just as well with R chudan tsuki or a grab.

[kakatootoshi]

Soto uke while moving slightly to the side

You do this if I grab your shoulder on the same side, you can even Kannuki or Makikomi Nage me, ouch :D

OSU!

[Dobbersky]

[QUOTE=Nix;91969]

Take Jissen no kata. It's brutal and it's explosive, and in my opinion close to the very idea of Ashihara Karate. Short and explosive combinations with stuff that works. Soto uke while moving slightly to the side, strike to the head, elbow to the face. Job done. You will also notice that this kata does not end with a throw, but standing up and ready. [QUOTE]

OSU-EN2

I love Jissen Kata the best too.

I can rework Jissen No Kata Ichi, move 2(UK) or 3(NIKO) like this (I know its not the same as NIKO but if you try it it does work):>

Step out, palm heel block, straight into circular block, pulling round facing right. Knee strike to the chest; bring the leg back, front kick off the back leg to the attacker’s Knee or same level (Cutting Kick), Small turn and throw attacker to ground
Bunkai Attack: Front punch off the backhand to the face or a Shoot to the legs

OSU-EN2

It looks like Kancho added "hidden" moves in to the kata just like traditional kata's hidden moves!

[GJEC]

:)

I doubt it.

There's always a degree of flexibility with all combinations - there has to be if only because opponents vary in shape and size.

Hidden meanings? My impression is Kancho Ashihara wanted to get back to practicality and cut out the dead wood, not make things more complex by building in more layers.

"Some people think advanced means "use a lot of drills" but remember what I said about the master—he refines and polishes. He takes away what he does not need. Mastery entails being the best while using the least amount. A master carpenter makes the fewest cuts, uses the least amount of nails, and produces the strongest, best looking work."

I think it's part of human nature to equate 'complex' with 'advanced' - while in reality simplifying things but doing them better is usually the key.

Gary

[Markku]

There are releases from grabs in kancho's second book. Basically the same blocks as in kihon, very similar to what I've trained in traditional okinawa karate.

One thing to consider is the legal side. When we're talking about grab releases it's about self defence, right? For example in Finland the law says you have to measure the amount of force used by the threat you're facing. If the threat was someone grabbing your lapel, it might be quite challenging to explain why you sunk your elbow to his teeth.
:D

If you would know that the attacker is carrying a knife (and you can prove it too), it could be a whole different story legal-wise. You get the idea.

SD is about split-second decisions made in adrenaline rush, evaluated afterwards by law people who probably have never been to a fight, so I would guess it's better to learn to use techniques that are easier to explain afterwards. Like open hand shotei punches to the face for example: "But I was just pushing him away from me..." (looking like an innocent puppy).
;)

[GJEC]

Osu! Markku

All countries are slightly different in their enterpretations of risk and what's allowed. Here's a summary of the UK laws:

Self Defence and The Law - Protecting Yourself (UK) (http://www.protectingyourself.co.uk/self-defence-law.html)

The key thing though is only the victim worries about the law. Criminals, by their very nature, don't care. This 'turbo lag' (as my friend calls it) where an otherwise more powerful and capable person - karate-ka for example - gets taken apart by a sudden attack as they hesitated weighing up how much force to use - can get you maimed.

The best advice I believe is strike hard enough to create a window of opportunity for escape. If questioned afterwards, never deviate from the honestly held belief that you only used force because you believed your / your loved ones life was in danger.

Gary

PS - the chin jab you describe is a winner. Looks fine on CCTV and 'witness perception' is of a push away. Hurts enough to put most idiots off, and damaging enough (if they need another) to put most people down. Perfect! Just watch the head smashing onto pavements though as the secondary impact does far more damage than the 'push.' Holding on with the left hand - like a hiki kuzushi - so they twist as they go down and land on their side is helpful ....

[Nix]

I just remembered en kei gyaku tsuki. At the Sabaki Camp, Kancho explained the importance to twist your hand when performing the shuto uke, so that you could break free from a grab. This is just a small detail, but it's important because the technique is now effective against grabs.

[Markku]

The key thing though is only the victim worries about the law. Criminals, by their very nature, don't care. This 'turbo lag' (as my friend calls it) where an otherwise more powerful and capable person - karate-ka for example - gets taken apart by a sudden attack as they hesitated weighing up how much force to use - can get you maimed.

Yeah, this was my point. If you train techniques that are easier later on to justify, or even slightly adjust to fit your story :D, then you don't have to worry so much about going full on.

BTW the UK law seems to be pretty much the same as in Finland. Sounds good on paper, but can also be interpreted really foolishly.

[jcc]

Osu!

Dealing with the law can be really nerve-racking and you never know which way it could go. About 18 years ago some guy attacked me and I ended up getting arrested (well, he ended up in hospital!). Luckily there were witnesses who corroborated my story, but it took a couple of weeks of investigation to clear me. Then the guy tried to sue me with a civil suit. This was in the UK, where (I think) stuff like that is still quite unusual (unlike the USA?). In the end I think his lawyers must have told him to forget it (after looking at the police report) as he really stood no chance of winning, but it was a shock that he would even have thought about it.

Osu!

[Dobbersky]

It seems to be common in the UK anyway for the Criminals to plead that they were attacked, even if you were defending yourself, your love ones or your property.
The one thing I did was ask the CPS (Criminal Prosecution Service) for a load of copies of 'how to deal with intruders' not too sure on the correct title as I need to get some more out from my locker. It details for example that if an assailant is coming towards you or coming up the stairs you various rights but if they are running away or down the stairs then you have limited rights.

Don't want to misquote so check with the CPS first rather than quoting me (I could be slightly incorrect)

[sandman]

From now on as soon as it is evident that I am being attacked I will ask my attacker to pause while I consult my attorney to determine if I am within my rights to bash his head in (the attacker's head, not the lawyer's. I'll save the lawyer head-bashing until I receive his bill). :D

[Dent]

Osu!

I've seen the results of hesitation, and they are permanent and they aren't pretty. :mad:

If you want to see police officers squirm as witnesses, get the lawyer to have them detail police procedure when subduing a violent individual. Have them include the number of people killed during this procedure, both civilian and LE, over the last 20 years. Then ask how you, as simple John/ Jane Q Public should react when faced with the same situations, and how you, with no training in restraint; no back up; no weapons; and in fear of your life, could be expect to do anything less than defend yourself to the best of your ability? Ask whether each potential aggressor is assumed armed or not (They are.), or whether or not they may have outside assistance (Again, Yes.)?

Why should you then assume a lower threat than the LE department in your area? Is your well-being not equally valuable? (When in doubt, attack.)

I fully support the efforts of LE in my area, but I'm not so naive as to assume that it's a two way street.

Osu!

[sandman]

An interesting note:

I'm told that in high schools in my area the "accepted procedure" for dealing with someone trying to fight at school is for the attackee to raise his hands over his head, back away from the attacker, and yell "I don't want to fight!"

I'm not for kids fighting at school obviously, but is this really giving the kid a chance? If the bully really wants to fight, now he's got a really easy target. Back in the good old days, the best way to get a bully to stop picking on kids was for one of the kids to get fed up and fight back - that was usually all it took.

[Dent]

Osu!

I am a proponent of kids sorting it out in school. I've seen far worse come from bottling it up, and a stream of negative forcing the eventual conflict off the school grounds and usually at least one combatant into medical care.

Let's be clear here, IMO it has nothing to do with schools trying to de-escalate violence, but simply to prevent them from being sued. :rolleyes:

Osu!

[sandman]

Osu!


Let's be clear here, IMO it has nothing to do with schools trying to de-escalate violence, but simply to prevent them from being sued. :rolleyes:

Osu!

That's exactly right. Somehow our society has gotten to the point where the answer to everything is a written procedure - procedures now replace common sense and rational thinking. The bully is not afraid of getting detention, but he probably would think twice if some kid punched him in the teeth just once...