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View Full Version : Point sparring ally 05-03-2009, 09:59 PM I was at a tournament yesterday that was open to all styles it was cool and I enjoyed my time. Although I didn't stay for the point sparring I forgot how entertaining it can be after watching some clips on youtube. Anyone here do point sparring? What do you think about it etc.? sandman 05-04-2009, 12:12 AM Our dojo often offers point sparring in tournaments we sponsor - basically just to encourage more competitors. There just aren't many knock-down fighters around here. So if I compete in one of our tournaments and there is a point fighting division I'll usually do it, just to show support for our dojo / organization. In general World Yoshukai doesn't put a whole lot of stock in point sparring. We never train for point sparring in our dojo. shidokanatlanta 05-04-2009, 12:40 AM i used to do a lot of point tournaments. i keep some point sparring gear and get some of the fighters to point spar. i also keep chest protectors and have them spar wtf rules. i like to mix it up and do different stuff. the timing and the range is different. kicking for knockdown, point, tkd, and kickboxing are different but there is some carry over of the techniques. i have found that my background gives me a variety of weapons that's hard for opponents to read. jcarmello 05-04-2009, 03:07 AM I love watching WTF point sparring tournys. These young kids fly with their feet. Good stuff to watch. My son competes and enjoys them immensely. ally 05-04-2009, 05:35 AM i used to do a lot of point tournaments. i keep some point sparring gear and get some of the fighters to point spar. i also keep chest protectors and have them spar wtf rules. i like to mix it up and do different stuff. the timing and the range is different. kicking for knockdown, point, tkd, and kickboxing are different but there is some carry over of the techniques. i have found that my background gives me a variety of weapons that's hard for opponents to read. Sounds like you run a good school, I wish most schools offered a balanced stand up curriculum. jcc 05-04-2009, 08:48 AM Osu! Like many others (I imagine), my tournament experiences with point systems was not good (biased refs, etc), but the system itself does have some good points. It definitely helps with timing, judging distance, body movement and sharpens up the technique. It also teaches you what it feels like to be punched in the face! :) Osu! powerof0ne 05-04-2009, 09:33 AM When done right, point sparring can be a good tool and I think is great for kids to start out in. When done wrong point sparring can be more or less a way of playing "tag". What I mean by that is I have literally seen some bad point sparring rules where you pretty much just had to make contact first...doing a proper technique was irrelevant. shidokanatlanta 05-04-2009, 09:34 AM i've experience negativity in every style of tournament that exists. it's people, not styles that give things a bad rap. the philosophy behind the competitions are all good. Nix 05-04-2009, 09:47 AM I've fought some point sparring (WUKO and WKF), but I don't anymore. The exception is the annual dojo championships, which is point fighting. Our school attend these tournaments for children and beginners. It's a good launching pad for contact karate. It's no secret though that the focus is primarilly on semi and knockdown, and we don't even practice point karate in the higher ranks. shidokanatlanta 05-04-2009, 11:04 AM my personal goal as a martial artist is try to compete in every kind of competition i can and do it above average. proficiency in many things is the key to being well rounded. my point fighting ability has been useful for me in full contact settings. speed never has a bad day. GJEC 05-04-2009, 12:41 PM speed never has a bad day. Osu! Shidokanatlanta Love that quote! I'll be using that. Gary ally 05-04-2009, 02:19 PM So let me ask, what is the difference between the point sparring that Shotokan practitioners compete in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nqbAfzrg-E and other point sparring? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQxS5yA715U The reason why I ask is because the point sparring that I have seen Lyoto Machida compete in seems like its more controlled and more skilled. It also seems this is the main style of Shotokan sparring rather than knockdown is that right? sandman 05-05-2009, 12:17 AM I'm sorry if I sound offensive, but I have to ask - am I the only one who wanted to puke after watching the 2nd video? seattle 05-05-2009, 01:09 AM My experiences of point sparing tournaments is being DQ'd for excesive contact (3 times), and then my Sensei congratulating me on a job well done. I was just doing as told. Now I/we stick to full contact/semi-contact. ally 05-05-2009, 06:25 AM I'm sorry if I sound offensive, but I have to ask - am I the only one who wanted to puke after watching the 2nd video? LOL! Two totally different styles of point sparring sandman 05-05-2009, 10:45 AM LOL! Two totally different styles of point sparring Most definitely... I have to admit, I'm not a huge fan of point sparring anyway, but at least in the 1st video its traditional karate with good clean technique. The guys in the 2nd video in their Star Trek uniforms - not so much... I'm probably biased against those guys because there are a couple of guys who look like that who go to one of our open tournaments every year - they wear the Star Trek gear and they act like unprofessional idiots. They spend the whole day bouncing around and showing off while they warm up (all day long - how long do you really need to spend warming up??). Then when one of them is about to fight, the other one gets him "pumped up" by slapping and punching him and yelling at him like he's getting ready for a cage match or something - its point sparring dude!! They make karate look silly. Sorry, had to vent... shidokanatlanta 05-05-2009, 11:13 AM american karate point fighting started out like traditional japanese point. it has changed since then. but, despite how it may look, there are some talented american point fighters who have done well in full contact fighting (jason bourelly, raymond daniels, etc.). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OH9E5X8B3g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4hVMfi_5cU jcc 05-05-2009, 01:45 PM Osu! 1st video, 0:36 - best technique of the night! :) The rest of the video(s) just makes me think of Mexican tag wrestling. If we loose our dignity, what else is left? :( Osu! GJEC 05-05-2009, 01:50 PM If you loose your dignity, you're just one step away from... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2_NpHUiIdc&feature=related Had a lad at a village fete once telling me this had its roots in broadsword fighting... Gary jcc 05-05-2009, 01:55 PM Osu! Gary, So thatīs how you spend your Sundays... :) You should take sandman along when he visits - give him a taste of Good Olde English culture! Osu! shidokanatlanta 05-05-2009, 01:57 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muy7tFeW61M another example of an american karate point champion using unorthodox movement in a full contact setting. GJEC 05-05-2009, 01:58 PM LOL Osu! jcc What can I say? You can't defend it. Every village needs an idiot and sometimes they get together for a dance. Gary jcc 05-05-2009, 02:12 PM Osu! Gary, The problem is how that becomes a bit of a national symbol, attracting tourists and the like! Well, on the bright side, it does keep (some of) the idiots out the pubs! Osu! jcarmello 05-05-2009, 02:50 PM When done right, point sparring can be a good tool and I think is great for kids to start out in. When done wrong point sparring can be more or less a way of playing "tag". What I mean by that is I have literally seen some bad point sparring rules where you pretty much just had to make contact first...doing a proper technique was irrelevant. I have witnessed the same many, many times. I often watch my children who attend a local Dojang and discuss with them their good techniques and complete flops after they have their point sparring nights. Way to often they are left with either a vague or no sense of their progress during such events. While they are well trained in many facets of TKD,the game of tag that is often played in Point Tourny and Sparring is atrocious. However, when it is good, it is great to watch. I will bring them with me to the Dojo so that one of the Shihans or Senpai can work with them on Power Pointing while moving forward. Then they return to the dojang with a different tool for training. I am not interefering with the Grand Master's instruction rather I am supplementing their skill and technique. (Well I am not, they are kids, they dont listen to me!! lol!) Dent 05-05-2009, 04:13 PM Osu! Had a lad at a village fete once telling me this had its roots in broadsword fighting... Gary After his howmanyeth pint? :D Osu! GJEC 05-05-2009, 04:16 PM Ha Ha - not enough methinks - he'd have realised how daft it was after about 8 Gary milwaukeecop2 05-30-2009, 09:27 PM the problem with piont sparring, IMO, is the same problem fenging had prior to electronic scoring, controversy over who had "the right of way", with bluetooth technology its possible to take the human error/bais out of judging, and leave it to a labtop, that can not only calculate who scored first, but the force and speed of technique. bobh 06-02-2009, 05:41 PM american karate point fighting started out like traditional japanese point. it has changed since then. but, despite how it may look, there are some talented american point fighters who have done well in full contact fighting (jason bourelly, raymond daniels, etc.). Did 1:26 through 1:34 actually happen? Did he charge at him on all fours? I've watched three times but still cannot believe it. I'm sure there are talented people involved, but I personally have no interest in watch the stuff in video 1. Just my own taste. bobh 06-02-2009, 05:45 PM another example of an american karate point champion using unorthodox movement in a full contact setting. I'm not sure what unorthodox movement you are referring to but that axe kick would translate well to knockdown! powerof0ne 06-02-2009, 06:12 PM I'll give an example of bad point sparring that I experienced...I competed in a all styles tournament in Hillsboro, OR in '94 I think..one guy I competed against flailed his hands and was only doing what I can describe as slapping me on the top of my head. It had no power and wouldn't do anything with or without pads..the first time the judge gave him the point I let it go, 2nd time I got mad..3rd time I jodan mawashi geri ko'd him and got dq'd. I did get 1st in kata but then again that's easy to do when nobody competes against you in kata. I will say one time in a point tournament I 'beat' a guy because he couldn't control his punches at all to my face but in real life he would have 'won'. The way this guy scored on me was so bad I'll remember it for the rest of my life. I've seen much more fair judging in WTF TKD tournaments and WKF/AAU/JKA/USANKF rules tournaments then I ever have in "all styles point tournaments"(wear foam dipped gear). I won't argue their actually are some good people in "american point fighting" because I know a few myself but I have seen more bad then good. Maybe my experience is in the minority, I dunno. shidokanatlanta 06-02-2009, 06:17 PM it boils down to taste. even if we don't like it, doesn't mean it's not good. the axe kick is used more in point karate than in kickboxing and knock down. the point fighters go for the flair more than the contact fighters and those that venture into full contact fighting will bring fancy techniques that are not common. Dent 06-02-2009, 09:56 PM Osu! Did 1:26 through 1:34 actually happen? Did he charge at him on all fours? I've watched three times but still cannot believe it. I'm sure there are talented people involved, but I personally have no interest in watch the stuff in video 1. Just my own taste. Maybe they both just decided to have fun? I think they'd both have been DQ'd for those antics in a Kyokushin tourney. Osu! shidokanatlanta 06-02-2009, 10:17 PM they were clowning and having fun with each other. raymond daniels (the would be difficult for any stylist to fight. and he'd land a lot of techniques that many would think won't work in a full contact setting. jungsun86 06-03-2009, 02:57 AM There are many different kinds of point sparring, so I'll just break down the few I have experience with in competition. 1-point sparring: This, in my opinion, may be the best training tool for self defense, it encourages full-contact (at least when we did it), clean technique, and speed. It is basically a race, to see who can hit the other person as hard as they can with clean technique. The goal is really to incapacitate the other person, but that rarely happens. Not many of these around anymore. General point sparring: This is crap. They practice light contact, and you see lots of flailing around. Points are awarded on contact, so technique goes out the window. People over-reach, and arch themselves in strange positions to get a "touch." WTF kyoruggi: I competed in this in university as the captain of the team, and I have to say, the black belts are great. They use clean, hard kicks to score, and they aren't afraid to go up top to knock someone unconscious. The speed and acuracy necessary to compete at a high level (like the Olympic level), means you have to be extremely physically gifted. I have trained with teams in Korea, and those guys would be good at any martial art. Kyoruggi means to see who is the best, and it is only used in TKD. I would prefer the old rules, they didn't use anything but the chest protectors, but as it became more popular the rules expanded for "safety" purposes. Really just the illusion of safety, but that's something entirely different. So, as others have said, there is good point and bad point, it's just hard to separate the two. Nix 06-03-2009, 08:54 AM General point sparring: This is crap. They practice light contact, and you see lots of flailing around. Points are awarded on contact, so technique goes out the window. People over-reach, and arch themselves in strange positions to get a "touch."In my experience (WKF and WUKO), points are simply not awarded for poor technique, and if the opponents simply flail their arms and legs, the referee will stop the fight, and might even give out penalties. Explosive speed, accuracy, control and technique are important. Power is not directly prohibited (unless it is with malicious intent), but is counter-productive. It should be noted that I don't fight point-sparring anymore. I much prefer contact karate. |