"you can't enter the over 35 comp because people would complain."

[theblueeyedninja]

how would folks respond to that?

[meguro]

Not enough info. Why would people complain?

[Dent]

Osu!

I'm with Meguro here. Who, what, when, where, why and how?

Osu!

[kakatootoshi]

how would folks respond to that?

It is not that difficult to give more information on what happened. We need judgements based on reasons here.

[theblueeyedninja]

The where: a few times in the dojo.
The when: event coming up.


never really given a straight reason, beyond, "people will complain." and maybe awkward silence:(

i can only guess that they think im too big/strong/good.

But, i always assumed that if you entered a knockdown event you fought who they put in front of you, and win, lose or draw, you knew you did your best. Like getting dominated by a blackbelt; there's no shame in that.

Maybe over 35 is for people who are a bit crap...

ps, im assuming it was meant that the other fighters would complain. Maybe there's some perceived "gaijin" advantage if the belts are the same....

[kakatootoshi]

Do not always Gaijin this and Gaijin that. Perhaps there is discrmination and perhaps not. Take it easy.

I see your point. You can enter over 35 no problems but I do not buy your theory that "you fought who they put in front of you, and win, lose or draw, you knew you did your best". If you are facing tough opponents, that rule applies. Now you are entering an easy competition and that sentence is to your advantage. I do not know by "strong" how strong you are, but perhaps it is like putting a big time fighter to fight in some small town tournaments.

アレクセイ・コノネンコ is also 35 I guess and should they put him in over 35? And many of the active top Daidojuku guys do not look too young to me.

[tmd]

As with the other posters this is not a direct answer but more of a hypothetical/ personal one. I think you should be testing yourself at a level above comfortable and look at your motivation to want to compete in what could be seen as an easier category. I have a similar issue at having just turned 40 I could now enter the over 40's category but with true respect to the over 40's in our org most of them are late comers to Kyokushin as in it is still only maybe their first, second, maybe third tournament and I would humbly feel I could win, but without testing myself. Now if I had a big blip in training and was unfit during the lead up I would fight in this category as it would be fair and still a test for me.

But my main issue is if I am fit and strong enough to compete in the open category this would be more of an accomplishment for me to share a mat with a fighter half my age and be competitive than win a category where the rest of the fighters are not training at the same level as me.

We will see if this pans out over the next year :)

[ksan]

But my main issue is if I am fit and strong enough to compete in the open category this would be more of an accomplishment

I agree, if you feel up to it, you should fight open category. I think the +X category are for people who have reasons not to fight open category. That decision to fight and in what category is ultimately up to you (your a shodan now, you have more responsibility for yourself). If you are a beginner at +X age the +X category might be a good way to start of (as a instructor i would be less hesitant to have a beginner student over 40 fight in a over 40 only class then in a open class, safety first for your students and stuff)


Osu

[Dent]

Osu!

Frankly, I'd see it as a bit of a compliment. Better to lose in the tougher division than to walk all over the easy one...

Osu!

[theblueeyedninja]

If you are facing tough opponents, that rule applies. Now you are entering an easy competition and that sentence is to your advantage.


but knockdown( not daido) rules are to my disadvantage, as most people with a striking background are used to going to the head first to open up the body. learning how to get to the body without the head is quite hard...

Osu!

Frankly, I'd see it as a bit of a compliment. Better to lose in the tougher division than to walk all over the easy one...

Osu!

yeah, it's a compliment.:)

but as i'm new to knockdown rules it'd be nice to compete against guys who are also new to it. in the open class(knockdown rules) it's me (damn, how am i meant to hit his liver) versus guys who are new to diado but kyokushin blackbelts. That's not really any fairer than me versus guys who aren't in shape and fight in slow motion.

[bobh]

If your instructors are pretty sure you will dominate (such as a small event), then don't enter. I'd feel silly entering a semi-knockdown in a local tournament. Or as an alternative, challenge yourself by only using techniques that you feel need improvement (that you are not very good at). I once heard (don't know if true) that someone entered a knockdown and used only koken techniques. That always sounded cool to me. :cool: Osu

[Dent]

Osu!

If you're a novice in the event, it does make it tough. Unless this is a very small event, and you have a significant international background in other MA...

Sometimes, if you're the outsider, you just have to suck it up and wait for the next time. I've done it, and while it felt like rough sand in my underwear at the time, the memory is more like sandpaper today... :cool:

Osu!

[shinobijesus]

am i missing something? what is your motivation to enter the 35 year old category? just the fact youre new to the rules?

you sound really confident in your skills so i agree with the others. if you feel that strong you may as well enter the open category.

[theblueeyedninja]

am i missing something? what is your motivation to enter the 35 year old category?

the part about knockdown rules being new to me and somewhat difficult to get into

[shinobijesus]

the part about knockdown rules being new to me and somewhat difficult to get into

a new ruleset is kind of a superfluous excuse in my view. getting used to the rules can only happen with time. it isnt going to happen faster fighting noobs.

besides, well it might be different at your dojo, but sometimes a sensei will have arbitrary kumite sessions. only specific limbs can be used for certain things. training like that on occasion helps with concentration. slip ups dont happen as often as youd think.

just enter the open category. you will get better faster fighting people that understand the nuances of the rules better than you do. try to pick up on the things they do. good luck.

[smoothsake]

How old are you? If you are lets say 37, I say definitely fight open. If you're 40+ then maybe do the senior. If you're 45+ definitely go senior. I get a bad feeling when I see a 35 year old enter a senior division only to go at it with bald, overweight men (no offense to any of you that fit that description). It looks like cherry picking and people will frown at you even if you win.

[kakatootoshi]

How old are you? If you are lets say 37, I say definitely fight open. If you're 40+ then maybe do the senior. If you're 45+ definitely go senior. I get a bad feeling when I see a 35 year old enter a senior division only to go at it with bald, overweight men (no offense to any of you that fit that description). It looks like cherry picking and people will frown at you even if you win.

Oh cherry picking:D
Good analogy.

[theblueeyedninja]

a new ruleset is kind of a superfluous excuse in my view. getting used to the rules can only happen with time.

do you realize how different it is not being able to target the head, which is usually the way to get people to expose their bodies? what's the point of punching people on the forearms and elbows well these knockdown blackbelts can land almost everything?

[theblueeyedninja]

just enter the open category. you will get better faster fighting people that understand the nuances of the rules better than you do. try to pick up on the things they do. good luck.

i haven't met many people who think it's good for beginners to fight with experienced guys as a way to learn...

if i used you as a punching bag and you couldn't really get any offense going, what would you feel you learnt?

[kakatootoshi]

i haven't met many people who think it's good for beginners to fight with experienced guys as a way to learn...

if i used you as a punching bag and you couldn't really get any offense going, what would you feel you learnt?

Fight in the over 35: unfair to the others, fair to you, easy to win, go home with nice trohpy, earn disrespect.

Fight in openweight: unfair to you, hard to win and perhaps lose in the 1st round, go home with bruises, earn respect (as least from people here).

Man you are over 35, the inputs of the members in this thread does not offer you with any new knowledge. It is not like you do not know how to do a certain technique and ask for advise. The thread is just an unending and again meaningless debate but now you know how others see you if you fight senior. The decision is purely yours. If you do not care what other people think it is perfectly okay, it is your call, square and fair. But at the same time you cannot change how other people think about you (then again do not debate should I not try something because people do not want me to do so? this is life and you make your own decisions in each case, alright?). We all strongly advise you to fight open, if you are happy with fighting senior that is okay, but it is quite unlikely that you will get encouragements or acknolwegements here, if you need them.

do you realize how different it is not being able to target the head, which is usually the way to get people to expose their bodies? what's the point of punching people on the forearms and elbows well these knockdown blackbelts can land almost everything?

We know, we understand and we appreciate. We have people cross-training in different martial arts, not just Kyokushin.

Be it open or senior, good luck fighting and tell us how it turns out.:)

[powerof0ne]

I only see one choice given wit this dilemna...entering the competition wearing a tiger mask!

[theblueeyedninja]

Fight in the over 35: unfair to the others, fair to you, easy to win, go home with nice trohpy, earn disrespect.


how is unfair to others if we are all new to knockdown?

[StarKodama]

It sounds like you've already made your decision. What do you need us for? I agree with kakatootoshi-san, it sounds like this thread is going to go on forever....

Best of luck in whichever category you choose.

[theblueeyedninja]

It sounds like you've already made your decision. What do you need us for? I agree with kakatootoshi-san, it sounds like this thread is going to go on forever....

Best of luck in whichever category you choose.

there is no decision. I don't have a choice in the matter: either i enter open or i cant try competition. i was wondering if anyone in the knockdown community has has this sort of experience...

[kakan taishite itonami]

Why fight if it is not a challange?

[tmd]

i was wondering if anyone in the knockdown community has has this sort of experience...


I think maybe you should ask some other question as I'm not sure what you want to learn from this one? most have faced this I guess, in so much as you run out of Novice events and have to step up to the open, the way you cope is to start at a local level tournament and then Regional, National, International - the same as, most everyone else. The exception to this is a fighter from another art, say MT wanting to take part in an event or a fighter form another organization, you have no lineage with this fighter so can not vouch for his Novice credentials so he has to fight Open.

But Novices are not compulsory (as far as I understand) if you feel ready you can fight open but you loose all privileges to fight Novice.

I think, could be way off but you are not really asking about fighting in an over 35's category but wanting to fight in a novice category. If you have no prev. fighting exp then where is the issue? I have seen 3rd Dan fight Novice because it was still their first experience of full contact If you have done more than a handful of whatever type of full contact events you would have a massive advantage fighting against a bunch of guys who have only ever stepped onto the mat one or twice if at all.

If this does not answer your question the only way it will get answered any deeper is for you to post a history of your training and tournament exp for us to be able to appreciate where you are coming from, the simpler version is................ASK YOUR SENSEI! As he already knows all this.

[theblueeyedninja]

i was wondering if anyone in the knockdown community has has this sort of experience...


I think maybe you should ask some other question as I'm not sure what you want to learn from this one? most have faced this I guess, in so much as you run out of Novice events and have to step up to the open, the way you cope is to start at a local level tournament and then Regional, National, International - the same as, most everyone else. The exception to this is a fighter from another art, say MT wanting to take part in an event or a fighter form another organization, you have no lineage with this fighter so can not vouch for his Novice credentials so he has to fight Open.

But Novices are not compulsory (as far as I understand) if you feel ready you can fight open but you loose all privileges to fight Novice.

I think, could be way off but you are not really asking about fighting in an over 35's category but wanting to fight in a novice category. If you have no prev. fighting exp then where is the issue? I have seen 3rd Dan fight Novice because it was still their first experience of full contact If you have done more than a handful of whatever type of full contact events you would have a massive advantage fighting against a bunch of guys who have only ever stepped onto the mat one or twice if at all.

If this does not answer your question the only way it will get answered any deeper is for you to post a history of your training and tournament exp for us to be able to appreciate where you are coming from, the simpler version is................ASK YOUR SENSEI! As he already knows all this.


no tourny experience. previous style was kickboxing, but that was a "free training" gym, so it was 99% pad work, so sparing was new to me when i started karate: and way different to pad work. I'm adapting to kickboxing rules sparing, slowly getting some decent offense going, but still have trouble with firing combos.

knockdown rules are of course very different, but something i've wanted to try( having seen lots of Hug, Filho and kazumi footage), against people with similar levels of experience.

I did ask my sensei about entering the upcoming 0ver 35 tournment(a local one within our organization) but he7s the one that says no. It did seem a bit awkward and that's when one of the other students said that people would complain

[bobh]

do you realize how different it is not being able to target the head, which is usually the way to get people to expose their bodies? what's the point of punching people on the forearms and elbows well these knockdown blackbelts can land almost everything?

Yes, it's different. No different though than a contest where you cannot kick the legs. I'd be hard pressed to stay within those rules. ;) Or if you enter a tournament where grabbing is allowed and you are not used to it... etc. etc. Don't use any of these things as a excuse or crutch. Not being able to punch to the face does not nullify your other experience, does it?

What if we were to devise a set of rules for a knockdown kicking tournament where fighters could not use punches? We would not be devoid of capable contestants.

[bobh]

[...] I did ask my sensei about entering the upcoming 0ver 35 tournment(a local one within our organization) but he7s the one that says no. It did seem a bit awkward and that's when one of the other students said that people would complain

I still don't understand why people would complain? I'm sorry if this was already explained. Is it that you are under 35? Then I could understand complaints.

[Nix]

I think maybe you should ask some other question as I'm not sure what you want to learn from this one? most have faced this I guess, in so much as you run out of Novice events and have to step up to the open, the way you cope is to start at a local level tournament and then Regional, National, International - the same as, most everyone else. The exception to this is a fighter from another art, say MT wanting to take part in an event or a fighter form another organization, you have no lineage with this fighter so can not vouch for his Novice credentials so he has to fight Open.

But Novices are not compulsory (as far as I understand) if you feel ready you can fight open but you loose all privileges to fight Novice.I think the novice system is unique to the UK, and possibly the local/regional/national tier system. In any case, we can't be sure that this is the options theblueeyedninja has.

[tmd]

I think the novice system is unique to the UK, and possibly the local/regional/national tier system. In any case, we can't be sure that this is the options theblueeyedninja has.

Then you just do what everyone else does, fight at the level you are comfortable you won't be completely outclassed. From the response I can't see why he's being told he can't as he has NO ring or Mat time under his belt. Was the guy who told you others would complain taking part ;) and just trying tho better his own odds :D

[shinobijesus]

if i used you as a punching bag and you couldn't really get any offense going, what would you feel you learnt?


see, thats the confidence you have that indicates to me you should fight in the open category. im pretty sure you will learn a lot. :D

[Dent]

Osu!

no tourny experience. previous style was kickboxing, but that was a "free training" gym, so it was 99% pad work, so sparing was new to me when i started karate: and way different to pad work.

So, to clarify: You have no other tournament experience, are fairly new to Karate, and are over 35?

Hmmm... Then that statement does make me wonder.....?

Osu!

[ksan]

previous style was kickboxing, but that was a "free training" gym, so it was 99% pad work, so sparing was new to me when i started karate: and way different to pad work.


curious to know, which pad work do/did you do in both styles and which ones do you like better...


Osu

[kakatootoshi]

there is no decision. I don't have a choice in the matter: either i enter open or i cant try competition. i was wondering if anyone in the knockdown community has has this sort of experience...

Okay now you can either fight open or no knockdown. And most of us understand the difference between Daidojuku, Kyokushin and Kickboxing. So do you want us to give encouragements for you to fight open, or does it make you feel better if we say your Sensei is treating you unfairly by asking you to fight open?

[tmd]

feel like quoting my own post, Ask your Sensei! He is the only one with all the facts to hand, so maybe he knows a thing or too, sure you're over 35 but hey there will be other tournaments, could it be that this one is not for you?

[theblueeyedninja]

see, thats the confidence you have that indicates to me you should fight in the open category. im pretty sure you will learn a lot. :D


that's not confidence, thats explaining it to you in simple terms. i in no way believe(or wrote) that i could use you as a punching bag

Yes, it's different. No different though than a contest where you cannot kick the legs. I'd be hard pressed to stay within those rules. ;) Or if you enter a tournament where grabbing is allowed and you are not used to it... etc. etc. Don't use any of these things as a excuse or crutch. Not being able to punch to the face does not nullify your other experience, does it?

.

punching only to the body is very different, requiring different set up. ad as i have said, i dont really have much other experience except for pad work. And (as you may know) pads no hit back,

Osu!



So, to clarify: You have no other tournament experience, are fairly new to Karate, and are over 35?

Hmmm... Then that statement does make me wonder.....?

Osu!


im wondering too. hence i came here to see if this was considered normal in knockdown schools.
thanks for your reply

[smoothsake]

Again going to my original post, I don't think you should look at the senior division as being a place where less skilled or less experienced opponents reside (even if you do meet the age requirement). I think we have senior divisions because the old should not have to compete toe-to-toe with the young. Kids are faster, have better stamina, and arguably stronger and can take more punishment.

I think your sensei (who obviously knows you best) is suggesting you fight in the open category because he thinks you are in good enough shape to fight with the boys. You might take a beating, but unfortunately that's knockdown competition - we all take a beating sometime.

Best of luck.

[Nix]

I find it strange that you are not allowed to enter the senior competition, if you fit the requirements. Likely (as others have already suggested) your Sensei feel that it would not be fair to the other competitors, because you are in better shape than them. You should speak with him, and ask the reason why you can't enter the senior competition, and if he feels it would be a good idea for you to enter the open category.

Good luck, and have fun!
Osu!

[bobh]

punching only to the body is very different, requiring different set up. ad as i have said, i dont really have much other experience except for pad work. And (as you may know) pads no hit back,


Yes, I agree. It is different. I guess I have been confused by this thread multiple times but I am stubborn and trying to understand. I asked before why people would be upset by you entering. You say on the one hand that knockdown is much "different" but then you say you have little experience fighting. So, knockdown can't be that much different from "nothing." We are going in circles I think. You have two choices. Fight or don't fight.

You have one option to join the open category. Not being able to punch to the face is an offensive restriction, you should still be able to defend your head... you have little to lose by entering other than losing. That has so much more value than doing nothing -- and arguably more value than winning. If you have the ability to avoid getting seriously hurt, then I say go for it and tell us about it afterward. Good luck either way! Osu!

[theblueeyedninja]

Yes, I agree. It is different. I guess I have been confused by this thread multiple times but I am stubborn and trying to understand. I asked before why people would be upset by you entering. You say on the one hand that knockdown is much "different" but then you say you have little experience fighting. So, knockdown can't be that much different from "nothing." We are going in circles I think. You have two choices. Fight or don't fight.

You have one option to join the open category. Not being able to punch to the face is an offensive restriction, you should still be able to defend your head... you have little to lose by entering other than losing. That has so much more value than doing nothing -- and arguably more value than winning. If you have the ability to avoid getting seriously hurt, then I say go for it and tell us about it afterward. Good luck either way! Osu!

all i can say that knockdown rules are quite a big change coming from kickboxing, esp when you will be going against people with years of experience. if you cant understand the difference between beginners and blackbelts then your school must be different than most.

even if a student can avoid being seriously hurt, how do they progress in karate if all they can do is try and protect themselves? learning offense is pretty important.

how do they do it in your school? do they people new students against the blackbelts in (hard) kumite?

there's not much value in losing when it7s completely onesided

[tmd]

If you do not feel ready then wait, stop trying to find a why, just do or do not. As Bob says this has gone around in circles and I am not sure we are helping you to understand/ are no closer to understanding your issue, sorry but again, you have no ring time exp. yet are finding it hard to fight without punching to the head? What's to unlearn if you've not been in the ring?

The only way to learn how to fight knockdown is to spar, then spar, then spar some more, get beat - get up - and spar some more. During this time you will also understand what level you are at re: conditioning, cardo and competitiveness.

What is normal in Kyokushin/ Knockdown? You enter tournaments you feel right and ready for simple as that.

[smoothsake]

how do they do it in your school? do they people new students against the blackbelts in (hard) kumite?

We have Freshman Tournaments here in LA. Do a search for it you will find my posts about it here on K4L. That is how we ease beginners into knockdown.


there's not much value in losing when it7s completely onesided

If you feel that way you shouldn't compete in this tournament. Period. There will be others.

[powerof0ne]

I came from a big muaythai background into knockdown but also did shito/goju and other stuff before muay thai. My muay thai coach had sucess winning a Sabaki Sattellite tournament years prior so he helped me prepare for my first knockdown tournament...for me the problem was just adapting to not punching/elbowing to the face and no more neck wrestling. I think the best way for a kickboxer to adapt to knockdown is by sparring other people good at knockdown under those rules. Unfortunately the last time I competed in knockdown I didn't have any good knockdown people to spar even though the guy I trained with did beat Kehn Hahn years prior(Mir's trainer and Sabaki champion) but he was so stuck in his kickboxing mode at the time (he got Dq's for face punching/dropping his opponent at the kyokushin tourny).
I don't think a thaiboxer/kickboxer has to necessarily switch to "knockdown" to do well but they definitely need to spar with good knockdown people under knockdown rules to "acclimate". Trying to get other thaiboxer/kickboxers to just start sparring "knockdown" when they don't have a background in it at all isn't the way to do it because they're not going to be as good as somebody accustomed to knockdown.
Just my .02 cents.

[shinobijesus]

just do or do not

....there is no try. :p

[bobh]

Responses to this thread have only been meant to help you.

[...] if you cant understand the difference between beginners and blackbelts then your school must be different than most. [...]

Who said I cannot? Are you suggesting I cannot? The above statement is unbecoming.

[...] even if a student can avoid being seriously hurt, how do they progress in karate if all they can do is try and protect themselves? learning offense is pretty important.
My point is that, unless you would be seriously injured, that you give it a go. Never did I write or imply that offense was unimportant. You keep writing about face punches but I assume you have some other offensive techniques in mind. If not, then do not compete.

how do they do it in your school? do they people new students against the blackbelts in (hard) kumite?

I think I'll make sure you are actually looking for answer before I respond to this question. I cannot tell given your previous statements.

[...] there's not much value in losing when it7s completely onesided
I did not expect it would be one-sided. If it would be one-sided then you are not ready to fight in any category at this time whether it be under or over 35.

You present yourself as having experience then call yourself a beginner and back again. :confused: Why would anyone think your entry into an 35+ category would be unfair? :confused: Either you are under 35 or you outclass the participants. Which is it? Is it either?

My best guess from this thread is that you should talk to your teacher and ask these questions. You won't find help here if you are not looking for it.

[bobh]

[...]

i can only guess that they think im too big/strong/good.

But, i always assumed that if you entered a knockdown event you fought who they put in front of you, and win, lose or draw, you knew you did your best. Like getting dominated by a blackbelt; there's no shame in that.

Maybe over 35 is for people who are a bit crap...

ps, im assuming it was meant that the other fighters would complain. Maybe there's some perceived "gaijin" advantage if the belts are the same....

none of this meshes with what you've since written.
Is it win, lose, or draw? Or not?
Is there shame in being dominated? Or not?
Are you too good for the crap division? Or not?
Would the other fighters complain you entered? Or not?
Are you the same belt as the other participants? Or not?

Are you trolling? Stop wasting time.

[Nix]

Okay guys. Unless you are actually going to discuss something in a productive way, this thread will be closed. Keep it cool. Smile.

[theblueeyedninja]

none of this meshes with what you've since written.
Is it win, lose, or draw? Or not?
Is there shame in being dominated? Or not?
Are you too good for the crap division? Or not?
Would the other fighters complain you entered? Or not?
Are you the same belt as the other participants? Or not?

Are you trolling? Stop wasting time.

sorry if i have caused confusion, i understand not everyone is a native speaker of English.. I came here to find out how they do it in other knockdown schools and to discuss it with such people. Do they put the new guys against experienced people or against other new guys. Some people have said that it's a good way to learn. Some people got confused and thought i was looking for praise.

i don't mind losing, but again, in your school do they put the new guys against the experienced guys?
There's no shame in being dominated, but again, do you think that's a good way to improve in knockdown?
If i find knockdown new and difficult, can i really be too good? or am i being prevented from entering for other phyiscal reasons. Is this considered normal in knockdown schools?
Of course, i would be the same belt as the other people.

again, i am sorry for causing confusion. I did not come here for praise about my awesomeness or personal guidance, i'd just like to know how it's done on the knockdown community

[Dent]

Osu!

Usually, as long as you've passed the first grading, you are eligible for tournaments. Sometimes we have to wait for long periods of time between tourneys, so some would jump at the opportunity to compete.

In the Dojo, the juniors are lucky enough to face the seniors regularly. Yes, it is a step up to fight Knockdown, but you may be drawn against someone in a similar position in the first round.

Osu!

[theblueeyedninja]

Osu!

Usually, as long as you've passed the first grading, you are eligible for tournaments. Sometimes we have to wait for long periods of time between tourneys, so some would jump at the opportunity to compete.

In the Dojo, the juniors are lucky enough to face the seniors regularly. Yes, it is a step up to fight Knockdown, but you may be drawn against someone in a similar position in the first round.

Osu!

thanks for your reply. this appears more to do with restriction than eligibility, hence i was wondering if other people have encountered it or if its considered normal that larger/fiitter people have to face some discrimination, eg beginner vs blackbelt

[kakatootoshi]

sorry if i have caused confusion, i understand not everyone is a native speaker of English.. I came here to find out how they do it in other knockdown schools and to discuss it with such people. Do they put the new guys against experienced people or against other new guys. Some people have said that it's a good way to learn. Some people got confused and thought i was looking for praise.

i don't mind losing, but again, in your school do they put the new guys against the experienced guys?
There's no shame in being dominated, but again, do you think that's a good way to improve in knockdown?
If i find knockdown new and difficult, can i really be too good? or am i being prevented from entering for other phyiscal reasons. Is this considered normal in knockdown schools?
Of course, i would be the same belt as the other people.

again, i am sorry for causing confusion. I did not come here for praise about my awesomeness or personal guidance, i'd just like to know how it's done on the knockdown community

If anyone in this thread here whose English is not native or have problems understanding because of language ability, I think it is no one else but you.

You have not caused any confusion and the last time I checked, no one has even faintedly suggested that you come here for praise. At the beginning you came here and asked us how would us response to "you can't enter the over 35 comp because people would complain". We kindly asked us to supply us with more information and you kindly did. I believed that other information was left out in a mistake, but not that they were not important in a reasonable discussion.

Many members here have told you that while it is written as "over 35" in the rule book, in reality many people over 35 still fight open because they have big advantages. No one here has said that you are not allowed to fight 35 (except for you Sensei). Many have also explained to you that your Sensei's expectations are not totally unreasonable and what you are explaining is nothing absurd. But you keep saying back and back again that the attacks in Kickboxing is different from Kyokushin (one use head attacks to find the openings and the other one cannot), and it is unfair to put you in the open category. We tell you this could be a challenge, and back and back again you go back to the loop, and tell us the attacks in Kickboxing is different from Kyokushin (one use head attacks to find the openings and the other one cannot), and it is unfair to put you in the open category.

When can we break out of this loop? Tell us if there is a way to keep you from saying the attacks in Kickboxing is different from Kyokushin (one use head attacks to find the openings and the other one cannot), and it is unfair to put you in the open category?

You say earlier on over 35 is for people who are perhaps "a bit crap" (in your exact words). And all in your mind is "perceived Gaijin advantage" and "discriminations because of size and skills".

You have "size and skills" and you fight against "crap" people and you should win. I think they all beg you to fight them! If you are not allowed to fight them then this is a discrimination. And then I see the opening to loop back to your "but I am a beginner" argument.

So when you think you are skilled, you are skilled.
And when you think you are a beginner, you are a beginner.

Okay listen to this, "What you are experiencing is quite unheard of in Karate schools. You should definitely be put into the novice category. They should not discriminate against you because you are heavier, more skilled or is a Gaijin. Your Sensei is totally wrong."

[GJEC]

Osu! Kakatootoshi

You seem to be getting a bit frustrated here ;)

To my mind the issue is simple. Is it a challenge?

If fighting over 35's wouldn't be (as his sensei appears to think) then what's the point?

Fight in the open category.

Gary

[Olrac]

Well, I've fought in the "over 35's", well actually is was "over 40's".
And I can assure you that it wasn't "crap" at all.
All I can say is, just try the open categorie.
And maybe you can try the "crap" categorie next time.

Osu

[theblueeyedninja]

If anyone in this thread here whose English is not native or have problems understanding because of language ability, I think it is no one else but you.

You have not caused any confusion and the last time I checked, no one has even faintedly suggested that you come here for praise."

"but it is quite unlikely that you will get encouragements or acknolwegements here, if you need them. "

[theblueeyedninja]

Well, I've fought in the "over 35's", well actually is was "over 40's".
And I can assure you that it wasn't "crap" at all.
All I can say is, just try the open categorie.
And maybe you can try the "crap" categorie next time.

Osu


thanks for you sensible post. in your school, would they put a novice against experienced guys or would he be allowed to compete against people of a similar level (eg, time in knockdown karate.)?

from previous experience most schools put the novices together. as im new to knockdown i came here to learn how things are done

[Nix]

from previous experience most schools put the novices together. as im new to knockdown i came here to learn how things are doneIs the +35 category a novice division?

[Olrac]

thanks for you sensible post. in your school, would they put a novice against experienced guys or would he be allowed to compete against people of a similar level (eg, time in knockdown karate.)?

from previous experience most schools put the novices together. as im new to knockdown i came here to learn how things are done

Well, as far as I know: your sensei knows best if you can compete at a certain level.
We have beginners tournaments for those people who have no experience.
For all other fighters there are the normal knock down tournaments.
Is it an option to test your skills at your dojo?
I mean, can you fight (lets say 70-80% power) against one (or more) experienced fighter?
If the answer is yes, please fight to open division.
If not, maybe it's not a bad idea to fight the other division.

In my opinion, if you doubt your own fighting skills before entering any tournament, you've already lost.

just my 2 cents.

[Olrac]

Is the +35 category a novice division?

I know a few dutch fighters who can show you it's not
:p

[kakatootoshi]

"but it is quite unlikely that you will get encouragements or acknolwegements here, if you need them. "

I forgot you need some special reassurance before you go cherry-picking.:( Just go fight senior. If you win congratulations. If you lose you lose to some people who you consider "crap":).

You come here to learn? I doubt? When others tell you there can be a right reason behind what your Sensei has done and you just keep looping back to the difference betwene Kickboxing and Karate, as if Kickboxing is a new sport to all of us (search information on the history of Kickboxing on our forums and see what will come up). You just come here to get reassurance that no matter how big or how skilled you are, novice (no experience in Full-Contact, not in other martial arts) is novice and putting you in open is wrong.

If someone tells you your Sensei has done the normal thing, you just loop loop loop, kickboxing difference until you see a faint hint that you are being discriminated, you go bingo and your eyes suddenly open.

"The over 35 is for people who are crap/big and skill people are facing dicrimination/gaijin advantage", just live by those three Karate priniciples and I hope you can be respected by other fighters. And please do not hurt those "crap" people too much because you may face further "discriminations".

But, i always assumed that if you entered a knockdown event you fought who they put in front of you, and win, lose or draw, you knew you did your best. Like getting dominated by a blackbelt; there's no shame in that

Sorry for the wrong quote. I know this only applies to those who face you when they see you in the "crap" category. It does not apply to you when your Sensei mercilessly drop you in the open category.

[theblueeyedninja]

I mean, can you fight (lets say 70-80% power) against one (or more) experienced fighter?


no i cant, hence i was wonder if it was normal in knockdown to put the bigger guys against blackbelts.
Thanks for your reply

[Olrac]

no i cant, hence i was wonder if it was normal in knockdown to put the bigger guys against blackbelts.
Thanks for your reply

So you mean that you can't train (almost) fullpower to prepare for a tournament??

That's strange....so how do you (or others from your dojo) prepare for tournament?

[theblueeyedninja]

So you mean that you can't train (almost) fullpower to prepare for a tournament??

That's strange....so how do you (or others from your dojo) prepare for tournament?

sorry, i meant that im not competitive against high level guys in sparing. because of their skill levels i tend to land punches on their forearms and elbows while they land almost everything on target. Hence i feel i would be better suited to the over 35 section as there will be more people there who are new to knockdown. If they are experienced, they might have slowed down a bit.

what would happen in your dojo?

[Nix]

Is the +35 category a novice division?
I know a few dutch fighters who can show you it's not
:pOh, I didn't mean in general - I meant in this particular case, since I get the impression that theblueeyedninja portray it that way.

As for answering the question by theblueeyedninja:
During practice, we usually do rotation, so we fight anybody present. There are sometimes exceptions when closing in on tournaments, so the fighters get to spar with someone close to their own competition, if possible. Ideally, this would be someone roughly their own skill level and size.

[Olrac]

My last tournament was last year.
I wanted to fight one more time as I am (a bit) over 40 now.
So I ended up on a European Championship which had a 40+ division.
Well, I can assure you that the fighters in this division may be a little bit slower than the younger ones but they have definately more experience.
So, please do not underestimate the "seniors".

You mentioned that your punches land on the forearms of your opponents and that they miss the target.
Actually, we train this at our dojo.
If you keep punching on the arms, your opponent will loose speed when punching and his arms will lower a bit.

Good luck on your decision

OSU

[Olrac]

During practice, we usually do rotation, so we fight anybody present. There are sometimes exceptions when closing in on tournaments, so the fighters get to spar with someone close to their own competition, if possible. Ideally, this would be someone roughly their own skill level and size.

Close to tournament, we prefer to fight someone with better skills so that we can try to improve the weak spots of the fighter.

[Kansetsu]

OSU!

I think a lot of people are getting confused...lol. in my opinion, certain things are getting confused cause they do not know your stats blueeyedninja. As in, what is your Training experience in karate, your size, your strength, your belt, your age.

To answer some of your questions...Yes, in my dojo, you enter for the first time, you fight. Perhaps the sensei will give you one or two rounds out, so that you can observe on how we spar, then the next you are in it. Do we go full out on beginners? no. we go as hard as you go on us. You tap us too lightly, we might push slightly more to give you an idea that tapping doesn't work in the dojo, and the hits should be felt and wake you up. If you hit us hard (which most beginners tend to do), we hit you almost as hard to tell you, we are going easy on you for a purpose, so go easy. We go at it with each other about 60 to 70% of our power...sometimes, if the other student allows we go about 80 to 85%.

My sensei is over 40...and if he went into a tourney....not sure if he'll be considered crap...i'm barely over 30, i'm about a foot taller than him, 50 pounds heavier, and much stronger...and he can take me out any time he wants. He usually toys around with me when i'm fighting him...(Mr. Dent can tell you how i fight...i'm not great, but i'm no push over).

Question and a suggestion to you...isn't there any semi-knockdown tourneys around your neck of the woods that you can try to compete in? The way semi-knockdown tourneys are done in US (especially here in NYC) is like this.

Under 40 Division, Over 40 Division.
Under 165 Pounds, Over 165 Pounds.
White to Orange Belt, Green to Black Belt. (Except for Over 40 Division...there is no belt separation).

Suggestion is this...since you are SO new to Knockdown rules, why not have more class time under your belt before you compete? Why not have more Class Kumite experience to get you to break away from face punches / grapples / Fish hooks / Crotch Grabs / Michael Jacksons / etc, before you compete in a tourney? Wouldn't you rather punch a person's face 50% of your power accidentally, than punching someone 90 to 100% of your power in tourney?

OSU!

[bobh]

[...] Hence i feel i would be better suited to the over 35 section as there will be more people there who are new to knockdown. [...]
I don't know if this assumption is true. I suppose it may have to do with the area/region.


If they are experienced, they might have slowed down a bit.
[...]

no doubt this happens. But I assume you have slowed as well given your age.

[theblueeyedninja]

OSU!

I think a lot of people are getting confused...lol. in my opinion, certain things are getting confused cause they do not know your stats blueeyedninja. As in, what is your Training experience in karate, your size, your strength, your belt, your age.

To answer some of your questions...Yes, in my dojo, you enter for the first time, you fight. Perhaps the sensei will give you one or two rounds out, so that you can observe on how we spar, then the next you are in it. Do we go full out on beginners? no. we go as hard as you go on us. You tap us too lightly, we might push slightly more to give you an idea that tapping doesn't work in the dojo, and the hits should be felt and wake you up. If you hit us hard (which most beginners tend to do), we hit you almost as hard to tell you, we are going easy on you for a purpose, so go easy. We go at it with each other about 60 to 70% of our power...sometimes, if the other student allows we go about 80 to 85%.

My sensei is over 40...and if he went into a tourney....not sure if he'll be considered crap...i'm barely over 30, i'm about a foot taller than him, 50 pounds heavier, and much stronger...and he can take me out any time he wants. He usually toys around with me when i'm fighting him...(Mr. Dent can tell you how i fight...i'm not great, but i'm no push over).

Question and a suggestion to you...isn't there any semi-knockdown tourneys around your neck of the woods that you can try to compete in? The way semi-knockdown tourneys are done in US (especially here in NYC) is like this.

Under 40 Division, Over 40 Division.
Under 165 Pounds, Over 165 Pounds.
White to Orange Belt, Green to Black Belt. (Except for Over 40 Division...there is no belt separation).

Suggestion is this...since you are SO new to Knockdown rules, why not have more class time under your belt before you compete? Why not have more Class Kumite experience to get you to break away from face punches / grapples / Fish hooks / Crotch Grabs / Michael Jacksons / etc, before you compete in a tourney? Wouldn't you rather punch a person's face 50% of your power accidentally, than punching someone 90 to 100% of your power in tourney?

OSU!

I'm new to karate. I came from a kickboxing background, but that was almost totally pad work, not sparing, hence i said im new to the whole sparing thing. My pad work is probably better than most beginners. My sparing is not.

I'm 180cm tall and a lean 90kgs, and I think that's why I'm being discriminated against( though perhaps in a complementary way). I look athletic and know how to hit the pads, but...

so, i was wondering if other knockdown people have had similar treatment. As to my sensei knowing whats best for me, i think in this case it's what he thinks is better for other people (better to disappoint one person than a group.

sorry for causing any confusion, im new to this forum and have to get a grasp on how to communicate with people here.

[theblueeyedninja]

OSU!

Suggestion is this...since you are SO new to Knockdown rules, why not have more class time under your belt before you compete? Why not have more Class Kumite experience to get you to break away from face punches / grapples / Fish hooks / Crotch Grabs / Michael Jacksons / etc, before you compete in a tourney? Wouldn't you rather punch a person's face 50% of your power accidentally, than punching someone 90 to 100% of your power in tourney?

OSU!


oops, i missed this bit.

Ive never had a problem with punching people in the face in sparing. sorry if you thought thats what i meant. I go strictly to the body as expected.

as to waiting to get more experience, maybe everyone should have to wait, but when i see new guys going straight into the over 35 event i feel a bit disappointed that I'm singled out. Hence i wondering if this kind of discrimination is considered normal in the knockdown community.

[shinobijesus]

as to waiting to get more experience, maybe everyone should have to wait, but when i see new guys going straight into the over 35 event i feel a bit disappointed that I'm singled out. Hence i wondering if this kind of discrimination is considered normal in the knockdown community.

lol... you keep saying "discrimination"... have you talked to your sensei about this yet? or did you just have this kneejerk reaction to his ultimatum of you competing open or not at all? he knows you better than anyone on the internet and probably has his reasons. perhaps he can help you understand them.

if you have no experience whatsoever in fighting/competing i think you should enter the open category. pretty much all the most skilled sempai at our dojo entered the open category in their first tournament. a few of them made it in a few rounds and a few lost their first fight. not one of them regrets it.

i really dont understand your perspective of "you cant learn anything losing a one-sided fight". it sounds like a cheezy movie quote but martial arts is all about a state of mind and if your state of mind is that kind of 'im not going to learn anything' pessimism then how much can you really learn? osu?

try and detach from this "discrimination" talk and all this worry over how everyone else does Kyokushin. it doesnt matter if this kind of thing youre going through is completely unique or if its widespread. either way it will end up being an experience you had.

please enter the open category with a positive attitude and try to learn something wether you win or lose. good luck.

Osu-EN1

[theblueeyedninja]

curious to know, which pad work do/did you do in both styles and which ones do you like better...


Osu

the pad work seems pretty much the same. lot's of combos, speed work, stamina work. the main difference that the black belts put a lot of emphasis on being able to switch to southpaw and be able to punch and kick with left and right equally well. the kickboxers usually stayed in their prefered stance.

[Kansetsu]

OSU!

Blueeyed...your size is almost like mine. This is the thing in my opinion. You are training for yourself...not for anyone else. If others go straight to 35+ tourney's then let them. If you want THAT much to compete in a tourny then go for it, but don't do it mainly because others are doing it (you understand where i'm coming from?).

I would get more time under my belt and gain more experience. I would strengthen my shins, feet, forearms, fists, toes, and fingers by training on pad work, shin bags, heavy bags, and class kumite, so that i decrease the chances of getting injured (even in semi-knockdown).

Then after all of that...(maybe 6 months to a year of class training and kumite), i would go into tourney. Decide, if i am good enough to go at it, go into open...if not, go into 35+ category.

Tourney's are just a part of Karate...in my opinion, a small one.

However, even with this advice, as well as great advices from others, if you feel that strongly in going into a 35+ tourney, then i don't think there is anyone that can stop you, unless your teacher absolutely says no, and doesn't sponsor you (although, i'm not sure if even that can stop you).

OSU!

[bobh]

Have you gone to watch a similar tournament in the same area and organization? Is this a chance that does not come around often? Maybe you should go as a spectator and soak in all the action... looking at details with the knowledge that you want to compete in the future.

[tmd]

Have you gone to watch a similar tournament in the same area and organization? Is this a chance that does not come around often? Maybe you should go as a spectator and soak in all the action... looking at details with the knowledge that you want to compete in the future.

OSU! Bob, I always recommend to Students that the watch, not take part in the first tournament they are to visit! Simon come back eager to train as they now have a better understanding of what it takes to get on that Mat, some come back saying they know they have a long journey ahead and may never be up to full contact, that's cool too as I would rather have that than people leave coz we didn't prepare them properly and they got whipped :D

Hey Blueeyedninja? Maybe your Sensei is trying to save your blushes coz he knows some of the old guys are really mean :D

[sandman]

OSU! Bob, I always recommend to Students that the watch, not take part in the first tournament they are to visit! Simon come back eager to train as they now have a better understanding of what it takes to get on that Mat, some come back saying they know they have a long journey ahead and may never be up to full contact, that's cool too as I would rather have that than people leave coz we didn't prepare them properly and they got whipped :D

Hey Blueeyedninja? Maybe your Sensei is trying to save your blushes coz he knows some of the old guys are really mean :D

Old guys might not be lightning fast, but they fight really dirty! ;) :D

[Dent]

Osu!

Old guys might not be lightning fast, but they fight really dirty! ;) :D

We do not kick 6 foot-90kg-athletic guys in the groin. More than twice. In the first minute. Well, hardly ever. :cool:

Osu!

[shinobijesus]

OSU! Bob, I always recommend to Students that the watch, not take part in the first tournament they are to visit! Simon come back eager to train as they now have a better understanding of what it takes to get on that Mat, some come back saying they know they have a long journey ahead and may never be up to full contact, that's cool too as I would rather have that than people leave coz we didn't prepare them properly and they got whipped :D

who is Simon?

[kyofighter]

The Kyokushin Ideal
Keep your head low (modesty), eyes high (ambition), mouth shut (serenity); base yourself on filial piety and benefit others.

I noticed that in today's world only a few can do this.
I'm getting all kind of people who would want to take on karate, but they can follow this ideal.

[Olrac]

Osu!



We do not kick 6 foot-90kg-athletic guys in the groin. More than twice. In the first minute. Well, hardly ever. :cool:

Osu!

Yes, I did! :D
And face punched him too :cool:

(You can ask Ksan what I did to my sensei when we were preparing for tournament)

[tmd]

who is Simon?
LOL - SOME? :o Glad to see you read my posts in such detail Shinobi :)

[theblueeyedninja]

OSU!

if you feel that strongly in going into a 35+ tourney, then i don't think there is anyone that can stop you, unless your teacher absolutely says no, and doesn't sponsor you
OSU!

thanks for your intelligent response

and that's the problem. All i get is ”だめ” and "people would complain", im not the kind of person who likes to push things, hence i was wondering if the kind of discrimination is common in knockdown cricles. hence my questions about how things are done in other dojos (though some people seem a bit averse to this question)

---edited by the MODS---

[kakatootoshi]

thanks for your intelligent response

and that's the problem. All i get is ”だめ” and "people would complain", im not the kind of person who likes to push things, hence i was wondering if the kind of discrimination is common in knockdown cricles. hence my questions about how things are done in other dojos (though some people seem a bit averse to this question)

---edited by the MODS---

You do not have to specifically say that is an intelligent response or that is a sensible response. All reponses in this thread are sensible, except for one person, and that is YOU, theblueeyedninja.

But I have to admit that you have improved through time.
At the beginning you simply wanted people to give comments based on one sentence (expecting only emotional responses perhaps:rolleyes:). Then for some time you were trying to introduce to us Kickboxing, a new sport. Yes no one on K4L has ever heard of Kickboxing, only YOU theblueeyedninja:D. Seeing that attempt failed, you changed your tactics and said in a message that perhaps not everyone could understand English well. Oh thanks for pointing that out theblueeyedninja:), you know Kickboxing and you can speak ENGLISH, is not that cool baby:p. And now you start to use "discrimination" as a defense:D Is it the sixth or seventh time I see the word "discrimination" or one of its derivative here?

If you fight open and you lose, you are a victim of "discrimination" and you can play innocent.

If you fight chery picking and you lose, you are a victim of "discrimination" and you can play innocent. If you win, you go tell people you have fought against "discrimination" and do things in your own way. Either way you win, clever;)

Conflict of Interest Declaration: I was not the person who sensibly sent you a PM to ask you to bugger off. Much respect to whoever did that!

To everyone else (not for you theblueeyedninja, I am talking to some underprivileged people who cannot understand English):

Has this guy use swear words? No.
Has this guy ever tried to provoke a fierce discussion? No. He does not even want to discuss with many of you. You guys do not deserve that. Telling him that fighting open is a challenge. No that is insane and no wonder why you will be ignored. He does not use swear words he just IGNORED you. Telling him that what he is experiecing is not normal, than our theblueeyedninja will open his usually blocked ears and start listening to you.

I think only a few guys has the guts to admit that theblueeyedninja has been experiencing serious discrimination at the Dojo. If more people can tell him this thing, he will go home happy with his favorite toys.

And keep pratising your English, you over 35 "craps" :mad:

[tmd]

By intelligent you mean agrees with you? For you have called no one intelligent that asks why you keep going around and around, no one who questions that you say it's hard to adjust even though you've no prior experience, or anyone who has questioned your motivation or who advises a different path other than the one you seem determined to take or not I'm no longer sure any more if you want to fight in the over 35's or just bleat about how unfair it is that you can't. You have been told it is not common several times, what is common is having the courtesy and respect to follow your much more in tune and qualified to judge Sensei's opinion. We have Novice tournaments, you don't (it seems) so we have a solutions which is not open to you where you are so do what is COMMON where there are no novices just wait till you are ready to fight in the open, there is no rush. But I & others have already said this and you seem determined not to listen.

I am not sure if it is bad English but discrimination is a harsh word to for what I see as practical advise from your Sensei - discrimination is saying you can't coz you is white, thats discrimination not advising you that it would be, I don't know seeing as you see yourself as big and powerful and the category as full of crap, aging novices maybe a waste of your time or do you just want to have a piece of tin? You can't have it all your own way suck it up and take it, that is advise, not discrimination. Last word. *Sigh* If someone has PM'd you a nasty that is poor form and not something I would do, I would also PM the Mods about it rather than state in in an open forum and have people speculate about who has said what, bad form old man, as we say over here.

[theblueeyedninja]

B
I am not sure if it is bad English but discrimination is a harsh word to for what I see as practical advise from your Sensei - discrimination is saying you can't coz you is white, thats discrimination not advising you that it would be,

discrimination is not just about skin colour. it could be social class, education or gender. in this case it's size. My sensei is not giving me advice, he is simply saying that i cant do what other students are allowed to do. i was wondering how common this is in the knockdown community

[tmd]

Sorry I didn't realize I had to list every class of definition of discrimination - my point is you are being told you can't do something he feels it is inappropriate THAT IS NOT DISCRIMINATION. We are all individuals and he is making (I'm guessing the guy could be a complete ****** but how are we to know) an informed choice. And I have answered your other point about 10 times now as have others and do not intend to do so again.

[theblueeyedninja]

Sorry I didn't realize I had to list every class of definition of discrimination - my point is you are being told you can't do something he feels it is inappropriate THAT IS NOT DISCRIMINATION. We are all individuals and he is making (I'm guessing the guy could be a complete ****** but how are we to know). And I have answered your other point about 10 times now as have others and do not intend to do so again.

it is discrimination if a person meets all the requirements but is simply barred from entering based on something not mentioned in the requirements.
thanks for your post

[sandman]

Then quit and file a law suit - see how far it goes in the court system.

[Olrac]

Why don't you just quit training at this dojo and find another one?
If you are "discriminated" in a certain place, why go back there?
Problem solved!

[Nix]

This is getting ridiculous. Since the thread is going nowhere, I'm shutting it down. Pointless bickering is not what K4L is about.

Should anyone have further problems, feel free to take it up with me or your moderator of choice.