How much different is muay thai from kyokushin (without getting into bashing wars)?

[FutureProdigy]

Due to work and other volunteer obligations, I now must decide whether or not give up training in kyokushin. Prior to this I used to train kyokushin and judo 2x a week each. However, with my current obligations I would only be able to train kyokushin 2-3x a week and have to give up judo entirely (something I did not want to do, i love judo).

I have looked at numerous clubs in the area to remedy such a problem and the only solution seems to be a mma gym (which I used to wrestle at, so I am a bit familiar with it) that offers bjj and muay thai classes. If i train here i would be able to do muay thai and bjj 3x a week each. I want to stick to something similar to kyokushin and judo, so this is why I ask how different is muay thai really from kyokushin?

If it is not all that different then i might have to consider giving up kyokushin for a while so I can still train in a grappling art on top of a kyokushin-esque styled art (in this case muay thai).



That might have been confusing, so here is the dilemma:

train in kyokushin 2-3x a week and give up judo

or

train in muay thai 3x a week and bjj 3x a week

The problem is kyokushin and judo have become a big part of my life so I do not want to give them up if I do not have to. Which is why I ask if muay thai is "really" all that different.

[Dent]

Osu!

I'd say that it is fairly different. Yes, there's punching, kicking, knees etc, but it has a different feel to it.

Not to pry, but where are you in the grade order for Kyokushin and Judo? I think that your development will either be enhanced, or confused, by the training, dependant on your own level.

Osu!

[powerof0ne]

They're a "bit different"...well I'm basing my muay thai with the karate I've done. I'd also like to point out that its sometimes hard to generalize all muay thai gyms in terms of what you'll learn and the quality. Part of the reason to this is because some muay thai instructors fought some muay thai rules fights and decided they're an instructor without any real Kru or higher certification. The other problem is not all muay thai associations are the same and even some of the good ones will certify just about anybody if they pay the $. With that being said I don't think all muay thai instructors do need a instructor certification if they have years of experience in muay thai and what not but some definitely do.
I myself was training privately one on one with 3 Thai arjarn/masters but know others have done basically a group seminar like situation to get certified in the same association I'm certified under.
Sorry to ramble a bit but just use your best common sense about what you want. Don't join a muay thai gym just because you know other good fighters have..because the muay thai gym by you may be lousy.
What BJJ school are you interested in joining? I'd say that if its a Gracie Barra school or Nova Uniao it's probably a good instructor. Association doesn't mean everything in BJJ but those are 2 big associations with pretty good instructors overall from what I've seen. Off the top of my head black belts under those 2 organizations are GSP, Shaolin, BJ Penn, Robson Maura, Andre Pederneiras, Kyra Gracie :X, Carlos Gracie Jr., and many many more I could go on about.

[smoothsake]

Haven't we gone over this like a dozen times already... :(

[Natureman]

They are quite different. You have more to worry about when fighting. But you know what? Adapting is the fun part!

[shinobijesus]

why look at this as you having to give up a grappling art? why not look at it in the light of this being an opportunity for you to focus on your Kyokushin?

you can go to Kyokushin 3 times a week now, for whatever reason. thats like 30 or 50 percent more Kyokushin or something like that. it sounds like a good opportunity to me.

you have your whole life to move through styles. you can always go back to Judo, or even better leave Kyokushin for a little bit and concentrate just on Judo after youve done nothing but Kyokushin for some time. when youre a bit older youll probably realize some focus did you a world of good.

[smoothsake]

Shinobi brings up a good point. If you're just starting out, it's probably good that you focus on one before you cross train. I would say get brown belt in either of the two before you pick up the other. Focus would do you some good.

[ksan]

I do both kyokushin 20 years and kickboxing for 15 (give or take)

And the only difference is your distance (due to larger ma-ai in kickboxing) due to head punching, the headpunching and the harder, heavier more frequent impact in kyokushin (due to smaller ma-ai more lowkicks and more body punches, also the no gloves in kyokushin makes for different kind of impact from the punches). Kickboxers also guard their heads better (for obvious reasons)

I always have believed that combining the two has helped me in both....

Osu

[powerof0ne]

I do both kyokushin 20 years and kickboxing for 15 (give or take)

And the only difference is your distance (due to larger ma-ai in kickboxing) due to head punching, the headpunching and the harder, heavier more frequent impact in kyokushin (due to smaller ma-ai more lowkicks and more body punches, also the no gloves in kyokushin makes for different kind of impact from the punches). Kickboxers also guard their heads better (for obvious reasons)

I always have believed that combining the two has helped me in both....

Osu

Can't argue that, I've always been a big advocate of knockdown and kickboxing/muay thai both complimenting each other somewhat filling in "gaps" of weakness on stand up.

[dantheman1985]

bjj and judo is a given. no trade off there.

muay thai and kyokushin is tricky. Unlike others here i would say switch. You will be training an additional 3x more and still be able to continue a form of grappling while still doing striking. 3x versus 6x. Seems straight forward to me!

[BigAl]

I was in a similar dilemma before. I realized that I could not continue to train in both Kyokushin and jujutsu and had to choose one or the other. I realized I enjoyed Kyokushin much more, and I have heard from many grappling experts (Jimmy Pedro being one) that it takes much longer to get a good striking foundation than it does a grappling one.

However, it all boils down to what you want to do and what you feel is best for you. I can't imagine doing anything else but Kyokushin now, and despite my desires to train in other arts I've restricted myself to just Kyokushin until I obtain at least shodan level.

[shinobijesus]

bjj and judo is a given. no trade off there.

what?

muay thai and kyokushin is tricky. Unlike others here i would say switch. You will be training an additional 3x more and still be able to continue a form of grappling while still doing striking. 3x versus 6x. Seems straight forward to me!

switching will be more than "tricky". if he changes, he isnt chaning one of his two primary styles so as to keep another one. he would be changing to a different stand up and a different grappling art. that might instill a habit of impatience. if you do 6 months here and 8 months there in 10 different styles where is your real strength?

if he stays with Kyokushin he will have time to gain some polished techniques, hopefully learn more good habits rather than bad habits, and all that other stuff that comes with devoted experience in one style.

6x a week in two styles doesnt give the same depth and understanding of either that 3x a week in one style will.

[Nix]

Is Kyokushin + BJJ an option?

[Dobbersky]

If its the Grappling aspect that you want and the Kyokushin Style of fighting then I would actually look at just 2 styles if it is an option

ASHIHARA KARATE or ENSHIN KARATE

These style encompass all of the above grappling arts of Judo and Aikido and its mixed with Kyokushin and Muay Thai to get the one style. they are both complete styles and you'll be able to dedicate 6 days a week to the one style instead of 3x a week each for 2 styles

Just my 2 pennies (cents) worth

Osu!!!!

[CameronQ]

...some muay thai instructors ...decided they're an instructor without any real Kru or higher certification. The other problem is not all muay thai associations are the same and even some of the good ones will certify just about anybody if they pay the $.
Chuckles to himself thinking, "Om my, THAT kind of sounds familiar..."
I myself was training privately one on one with 3 Thai arjarn/masters but know others have done basically a group seminar like situation to get certified in the same association I'm certified under.
Again, quiet chuckle. Your experience has taught you the importance of lineage. Good point.
I'd say that if its a Gracie Barra school or Nova Uniao it's probably a good instructor. Association doesn't mean everything in BJJ but those are 2 big associations with pretty good instructors overall from what I've seen. Off the top of my head black belts under those 2 organizations are GSP, Shaolin, BJ Penn, Robson Maura, Andre Pederneiras, Kyra Gracie :X, Carlos Gracie Jr., and many many more I could go on about.
Again, good point and true. GB is an outstanding group. Carlos Gracie Jr and his instructors are well trained and the GB group is a real family. Andre Pederneiras and his NU is also excellent. He has some great students and his gi work is very innovative too.[/quote]

Big Al said: I was in a similar dilemma before. I realized that I could not continue to train in both Kyokushin and jujutsu and had to choose one or the other.
Why couldn't you do both? I would think they are very complimentary because they are so different. So you are effectively increasing your knowledge base exponentially. Unless you had tie restraints.

Osu.
CFQ

--------------------------
Loyalty is the highest law.

[dantheman1985]

what?



switching will be more than "tricky". if he changes, he isnt chaning one of his two primary styles so as to keep another one. he would be changing to a different stand up and a different grappling art. that might instill a habit of impatience. if you do 6 months here and 8 months there in 10 different styles where is your real strength?

if he stays with Kyokushin he will have time to gain some polished techniques, hopefully learn more good habits rather than bad habits, and all that other stuff that comes with devoted experience in one style.

6x a week in two styles doesnt give the same depth and understanding of either that 3x a week in one style will.

BJJ and Judo are brothers. the newaza you learn in bjj is directly applicable to judo. so much so that most bluebelts in bjj can beat a typical kidokan syllabus trained black belt in a newaza match. same reason why kidokan 1st dan bbs normally get a blue belt when they take up bjj. you will not waste your time training in bjj if you want to improve your judo. your tachiwaza will suck but your newaza will improve.

[powerof0ne]

I was in a similar dilemma before. I realized that I could not continue to train in both Kyokushin and jujutsu and had to choose one or the other. I realized I enjoyed Kyokushin much more, and I have heard from many grappling experts (Jimmy Pedro being one) that it takes much longer to get a good striking foundation than it does a grappling one.

However, it all boils down to what you want to do and what you feel is best for you. I can't imagine doing anything else but Kyokushin now, and despite my desires to train in other arts I've restricted myself to just Kyokushin until I obtain at least shodan level.

Honestly depends on the person. I've heard Maurice Smith make a similar statement before and I can say for me I'm more of a natural striker. I am a slow learner when it comes to grappling. I've had to train 3-4x longer in BJJ then my friends to get to the same rank as them.
I've seen some natural grapplers who for the life of them can't understand how to throw a basic 1,2 punch combo, too.

[powerof0ne]

BJJ and Judo are brothers. the newaza you learn in bjj is directly applicable to judo. so much so that most bluebelts in bjj can beat a typical kidokan syllabus trained black belt in a newaza match. same reason why kidokan 1st dan bbs normally get a blue belt when they take up bjj. you will not waste your time training in bjj if you want to improve your judo. your tachiwaza will suck but your newaza will improve.

Kodokan or kidokan? I know Kodokan Judo yudansha that didn't get blue belts in BJJ right away but the Judo does help so of course you would get it quicker then somebody with no grappling background.

I also have seen Judo black belts that go into BJJ and take much longer to get to blue belt because of bad habbits.

My experience is primarily with carlson gracie and gracie barra BJJ schools though so I'm definitely not the authority of how BJJ rank promotion is done for all of BJJ.

[BigAl]

Big Al said:
Why couldn't you do both? I would think they are very complimentary because they are so different. So you are effectively increasing your knowledge base exponentially. Unless you had tie restraints.

I usually work at least 50-60 hours a week and we're on a tight budget. Also, I personally feel that to get the most out of an art it should be your main focus. I tried for years to do the "two arts at one time" approach, and I honestly feel I got way more results by just concentrating solely on Kyokushin as my main approach and cross-training for fun occasionally with friends.

[shinobijesus]

BJJ and Judo are brothers. the newaza you learn in bjj is directly applicable to judo.

thats because bjj *is* Judo newaza. just focused almost solely on newaza. everything you do in bjj was in Judo before it. and it was in various jujutsu schools before Judo.

so much so that most bluebelts in bjj can beat a typical kidokan syllabus trained black belt in a newaza match.

LOL! then why did we have orange belts that fought on par with bjj brown belts?

look, the only edge bjj actually has over Judo in newaza is the time spent on the ground. go to a Judo dojo that doesnt neglect newaza and it closes the gap pretty fast.

however id actually even recommend to a karateka to take Judo over bjj even if the Judo is olympic sport style and does neglect newaza. you never want to go to the ground in a real fight. learning how to put someone else on the ground while youre still standing provides the opportunity necessary to run away or address other threats.

bjj has its place as a prizefighting art.

[Dent]

Osu!

If its the Grappling aspect that you want and the Kyokushin Style of fighting then I would actually look at just 2 styles if it is an option

ASHIHARA KARATE or ENSHIN KARATE

These style encompass all of the above grappling arts of Judo and Aikido and its mixed with Kyokushin and Muay Thai to get the one style. they are both complete styles and you'll be able to dedicate 6 days a week to the one style instead of 3x a week each for 2 styles

I haven't seen groundwork as part of either syllabus. I do think that AKI has an anti-grappling program, but I believe the focus in to not go to the ground. Do you know of other Ashihara and Enshin programs that do incorporate groundwork in their syllabus?

BJJ and Judo are brothers. the newaza you learn in bjj is directly applicable to judo. so much so that most bluebelts in bjj can beat a typical kidokan syllabus trained black belt in a newaza match. same reason why kidokan 1st dan bbs normally get a blue belt when they take up bjj. you will not waste your time training in bjj if you want to improve your judo. your tachiwaza will suck but your newaza will improve.

I believe some groups honor Kodokan Shodan with BJJ purple belts, some blue, and some not at all.

Osu!

[GJEC]

Osu! Dent

Kancho Ninomiya used to teach a judo class at Honbu, and some instructors dabble in MMA - sharing facilities etc - but for the most part Enshin is a 'stand up' system.

Gary

[Dent]

Osu!

Kancho Ninomiya used to teach a judo class at Honbu, and some instructors dabble in MMA - sharing facilities etc - but for the most part Enshin is a 'stand up' system.

That's how I remembered it, Gary. Interesting that even with a solid background in Judo, Ninomiya Kancho has chosen not to go the MMA route. I've seen folk with far less experience choose to go where the hot money is.

Osu!