View Full Version : Proof of BJJ becoming watered down
powerof0ne
07-03-2009, 03:13 AM
I've said it once and I'll say it again, all martial arts after time get diluted. Kyokushin had or has a rep of being a no sense martial art where the black belt means something but there are, lets face, it independent dojo or whatever you want to call it that don't uphold the standards. Happens with every martial art and I used to like BJJ a lot because about ten years ago every black belt I met in the art was so damn good but over the last few years I've rolled with a few that make me arch my eyebrow.
Now, you can train on your own through online videos and turn in your belt testing under some of the Gracies themselves: https://www.gracieuniversity.com/LC/testcenter_view.aspx?c=63QJ4TGT7X&n=28&t=1
A gracie jiu jitsu black belt that did it through this method...I can't wait.
Bengoshi
07-03-2009, 04:17 AM
There is only one way of becoming skilled in BJJ and that is spending time on the mat. You can learn 10,000 submissions by DVD, but it should be relatively easy to find out if someone can apply them or not.
If a straight-to-video BJJ black belt can win a major tournament, then I'll gladly doff my hat to them. But I don't think I'll be doing any hat doffing any time soon. :mad:
Osu!
I recognize one name in particular in the BB listing. I am arching both eyebrows and trying to pick my jaw up off the ground... ;)
Osu!
powerof0ne
07-03-2009, 05:33 AM
Osu!
I recognize one name in particular in the BB listing. I am arching both eyebrows and trying to pick my jaw up off the ground... ;)
Osu!
Someone you know I take it? ;) I found one from my hometown area...somebody I never once heard of. Which is funny since I easily have personally met or rolled with at least a dozen of the BJJ black belts in WA state.
Osu!
I recognize one name in particular in the BB listing. I am arching both eyebrows and trying to pick my jaw up off the ground... ;)
Osu!
Had a laugh picturing this on a "cartoon-ized" Dent. Your eyes also popped out and made an "ah-OO-gah" horn sound.
harukaze
07-04-2009, 03:59 AM
Wow, that's absolutely horrible. First, the "Gracie Combatives" mail-order blackbelt DVD series, now this. Helio must be spinning in his grave.
sdfighter
07-04-2009, 04:09 AM
Actually the website gracieuniversity.com was established before he died. The DVD series were made by his sons and gracieuniversity.com is by his grandchildren the ones by Rorion Gracie
Osu!
Someone you know I take it? ;)
Quite. :cool: That page has now been sent to a few select individuals for a good laugh. And with just a bit of luck, we'll see said individual in the not-too-distant future. http://www.getsmileyface.com/sm/evil/509.gif
Had a laugh picturing this on a "cartoon-ized" Dent. Your eyes also popped out and made an "ah-OO-gah" horn sound.
And now I'm thinking of Jessica Rabbit. ;)
Osu!
powerof0ne
07-04-2009, 01:40 PM
Actually the website gracieuniversity.com was established before he died. The DVD series were made by his sons and gracieuniversity.com is by his grandchildren the ones by Rorion Gracie
I'm not sure if Helio endorsed it, though...I still remember when he was against Wanderlei Silva being given a black belt.
harukaze
07-04-2009, 10:11 PM
Actually the website gracieuniversity.com was established before he died. The DVD series were made by his sons and gracieuniversity.com is by his grandchildren the ones by Rorion Gracie
It just doesn't seem like something that Helio would have supported. It could be argued that Gracie Combatives and its mail-order blackbelt too was around when Helio was still alive, but that was just a brainchild of Rorion, just like Gracie University.
Lots of people have had issue with Rorion's business practices for the longest time, but now that he's the Gracie family patriarch (and Helio is dead and can neither speak his mind or control the use of his likeness), what can anyone say, right? Consider that even within the Gracie family itself there's still a lot of dissent regarding the "right" direction that they should go, not to mention the BJJ world as a whole.
Politics isn't just limited to Kyokushin, after all :p :D
Pound4Pound
07-06-2009, 05:46 AM
The sense of being blackbelt is just being watered down. Nowadays Black belt is only for sempai and senseis and a sign of respect. Some green and Brown belt outclass Black Belts because one reason is some dojo offers easy test for black belts just to have that money in there pockets. I hope no one in any Kyokushin or its offshoot org would have that thinking.
Tettsui
07-06-2009, 09:45 PM
Wow this is ridiculous but to be expected. As long as you think you know BJJ, you'll be more confident. Just never test your reality.
Osu!
Wow this is ridiculous but to be expected. As long as you think you know BJJ, you'll be more confident. Just never test your reality.
Quite true, Tettsui! Get the Kimono, t-shirt and belt. Who needs the skills? :rolleyes:
Osu!
I would think this stuff could be used for a learning aid, but you need experience and someone to tell you where you are messing up.
Steffen
01-17-2010, 08:27 AM
This is sad but not unexpected. I've looked at BJJ as one of the last to hold stand against the cheap tests. But I think and hope that this is not gonna be normal cost! :confused:
A BJJ told me that some clubs / org used a simple system. As a white belt had to take out all the other white belts in the class. And some remained as blue belts for years or for life! But they were then told that this was their "black belt"
FredInChina
01-17-2010, 08:34 AM
Hummm - I am wondering what makes the diluting seem so ineluctable?
It seems some circumstances that repeat are:
- it happens when the strong hand, usually the founder, passes away.
- it has to do with greed and conflicts between heirs.
...
There must be a lot of other converging reasons or circumstances that favor this deleterious evolution - that would be interesting to list them (but may deserve another thread, we'll see)
Then we could observe organizations that did not get watered down --- Thinking of fencing, but there must be others...
And finally, figure out how to avoid diluting by steering clear of the nefarious traits and promoting the auspicious ones...
Osu!
Fighting arts get watered down (or get stronger) in direct ratio to the amount of severe combat the majority of the participants are exposed to.
Inevitably in countries that are covered by heath and safety laws, or where accidents lead to court cases, that decline is faster.
Gary
FredInChina
01-17-2010, 09:39 AM
Fighting arts get watered down in direct relation to the further away from actual combat the majority of the participants are.
Gary
True - but would moving away from combat be a consequence or a cause to dilution? :confused:
Maybe it is when the question "Who do you need to be or become?" to earn BB turns into "What do you need to do?"
If we look back to Tae-Kwon do after it was introduced into the Olympics it gives us a model of how NOT to do it.
On the wave of popularity that followed there was a Tae-Kwon do club in every village. Standards declined rapidly. BJJ had a similar explosion of popularity for a while, so small wonder things have gotten a little less intense.
I'm sure there are still lots of places where standards are still high, but inevitably the bigger things get the harder it is to keep standards uniform.
Gary
that1guy
01-17-2010, 10:35 AM
you know, the watered down feeling here in the UK is very very true.....at least for the east anglia area. Before I found Shihan (not watered down AT ALL....awesome) I pretty much lost hope after about 5 months at a local Wing Chun club and was told "remember, little to no contact, just go through the motions." It is depressing to have the type of training 100% of the time with an art with such potential.
It seems as though many instructors that didnt water anything down end up not being able to keep classes going due to lack of attendance which sucks, or they advertise, and fill up the dojo with people that are looking for a simple <-- key word-- hobby.
Shihan told me once that he ends up getting better students when he doesnt advertise at all because they search him out, instead of him search them out.
powerof0ne
01-17-2010, 09:16 PM
In my short life time and involvement in martial arts I have seen diluted martial arts from when I first started.
I cannot even teach the way my original sensei taught me to children otherwise most parents think I'm cruel. I understand a child's class needing some fun but when it's all fun and no real skill and discipline being taught what is it?
I taught a retired coast guard guy in his 50s a few years back and his legs got some bruises from gedan mawashi from me. His wife had to ask me to go easier on him because he was going to quit due to bruises. I actually liked this guy but I wasn't going hard on him or anything, he was new and anybody new should expect bruises from gedan mawashi. I still get bruises but it comes with it...it's part of the package.
You can't expect to hit, take hits, and not take any bruises. I haven't gotten to the point where I don't bruise and don't expect that to ever happen. So am I supposed to teach in a way that no bruises happen?
If I am, I will quit teaching.
Osu!
Thunar
01-17-2010, 09:37 PM
I've said it once and I'll say it again, all martial arts after time get diluted. Kyokushin had or has a rep of being a no sense martial art where the black belt means something but there are, lets face, it independent dojo or whatever you want to call it that don't uphold the standards. Happens with every martial art and I used to like BJJ a lot because about ten years ago every black belt I met in the art was so damn good but over the last few years I've rolled with a few that make me arch my eyebrow.
Now, you can train on your own through online videos and turn in your belt testing under some of the Gracies themselves: https://www.gracieuniversity.com/LC/testcenter_view.aspx?c=63QJ4TGT7X&n=28&t=1
A gracie jiu jitsu black belt that did it through this method...I can't wait.
It's pretty much as I always say in the forum, now everyone is a BJJ black belt........That's why Helio Gracie wore a white belt for a many years (in the late 90's and beginning of the current decade)....he was ashamed of what BJJ has become......he used to say "if any idiot can have a black belt, I prefer to use a white one"....
No doubt there are many places where BJJ still has high standarts, but even here in Brazil the fake BJJ masters are spreading like a plague....
The amount of "BJJ world chapions" or "king of the streets" (nothing to do with Marco Ruas , he is a great fighter, a very decent person and never had this title here in Brazil, this is just another lie from Black Belt magazine, he was no punisher from the Rio de Janeiro's favelas) or "magical fighters from the jungles of brazil" is increasing outside Brazil, just because people are impressed by the "exotic master" from a country that those (stupid) people can not find in the world map.....
Remember the Gracie family has more than 300 embers involved in BJJ.........so there are people like Rickson, Royce or Renzo....and there are some people that want to use their family name just to make money.........
Osu!
Fighting arts get watered down (or get stronger) in direct ratio to the amount of severe combat the majority of the participants are exposed to.
Inevitably in countries that are covered by heath and safety laws, or where accidents lead to court cases, that decline is faster.
Gary
I agree with you completely...personaly I would prefer quit trainning than train in a country were people are so "soft" that they coud put me in jail or take alway all my money because of one kumite fight in the dojo. If people want to train a martial art or a combat sport they should realize that they might (no they will) get hit and get injured sometimes. If those people can not take a punch (or kick or whatever) they should go play chess (and excelent game by the way....i love it). I think that this politicaly correct mentality ("ohh you are so special".."ohh momy loves you so much"...."ohh no one wins and no one loses in karate"...."oh we are here to built your self confidence"...and so on) has no place in a dojo. How do people improve if they are not tested?? I prefer the "Life is tough , get over it..." mentality. People learn a lot more if they are tested and overcome the obstacles.:D
osu!
I'm not sure if Helio endorsed it, though...I still remember when he was against Wanderlei Silva being given a black belt.
Probaly he did not endorse it.............he did not endorse what 80% of what his family was doing.......he had several issues with many people of the "gracie clan"
Osu!
sandman
01-17-2010, 10:27 PM
I agree with you completely...personaly I would prefer quit trainning than train in a country were people are so "soft" that they coud put me in jail or take alway all my money because of one kumite fight in the dojo. If people want to train a martial art or a combat sport they should realize that they might (no they will) get hit and get injured sometimes. If those people can not take a punch (or kick or whatever) they should go play chess (and excelent game by the way....i love it). I think that this politicaly correct mentality ("ohh you are so special".."ohh momy loves you so much"...."ohh no one wins and no one loses in karate"...."oh we are here to built your self confidence"...and so on) has no place in a dojo. How do people improve if they are not tested?? I prefer the "Life is tough , get over it..." mentality. People learn a lot more if they are tested and overcome the obstacles.:D
osu!
Very true Thunar - I agree!
powerof0ne
01-17-2010, 11:47 PM
I agree with most if not all of what you say Thunar. I have been a purple belt for a while and doubt this will change anytime soon :D My friend Rodrigo took almost 15 years to get his BJJ black belt, and he started under Mario Sperry then under Marcelo Alonso and was his assistant for some years, Marcelo was a 3rd Dan under Carlson Gracie.
My other friend Joel won some local MMA titles, had some of his own MMA/kickboxing fight cards and competed in numerous BJJ tournaments and took almost 12 years to get his black belt. Rodrigo and Joel are both under Gracie Barra and most if not all Gracie Barra black belts I have met are in my opinion worthy of their black belt.
I have witnessed first hand a lotus club BJJ black belt that is fake. This guy used to say he was a navy seal, fought in pride (can't find him on pride or sherdog) and all sorts of crazy claims and a crazier excuse why you can't see him on any pride fights. This individual was triangle choked by a senior white belt of my friend Rodrigo's and was told he would be given his blue belt if he came back.
Rodrigo found out about this and said if he did it he couldn't wear the blue belt to his school :D Fortunately because of this this bjj fake black belt had students seriously question all of his lies and one of them even took him to court for his lies because he wasted 2-3 years training with him.
Due to an injury I have I fear I can no longer pursue BJJ like I used to and may never get my brown or even my black belt. This is fine with me, I'm grateful to be alive and even more grateful I have trained with some good BJJ instructors that won't just give me my brown and black belt and only when I truly deserve it.
I wouldn't have it any other way..maybe I'll be the 20+ year BJJ black belt, I don't care.
I could tell you some funny stories about a certain BJJ kimono manufacturer that is a black belt ;) coincidentally, he gave people who promoted him a bunch of BJJ kimonos :O shocking, I know.
Osu!
Godai
01-18-2010, 12:22 AM
If people want to train a martial art or a combat sport they should realize that they might (no they will) get hit and get injured sometimes. If those people can not take a punch (or kick or whatever) they should go play chess ...
As they say: "If you want to be a painter then expect to get paint on you once and awhile." (or was that a car mechanic and grease?) :D
Osu-EN1
polarbearfighter
01-18-2010, 06:56 AM
There are McDojos and money greedy fakes in BBJ too. It wouldn't have been difficult to predict that it would happen one day.
BJJ is still a great MA that at least I do respect even though I don't respect the fakes.
It's worth remembering as well that fighting systems get complex in inverse proportion to the amount of severe combat it's participants are exposed to.
Simple is efficient. If you're being taught elaborate or overly complex stuff it's a fair bet it's not been tested for real.
Gary
PASmith
01-18-2010, 10:47 AM
Can I also point out that these video courses and black belts are getting major criticism with in the BJJ community too (if the internet is anything to go by).
The Gracies have always been a faction within BJJ as it is and this just highlights that.
Pretty much everyone else within BJJ knows that the real essence of BJJ is not the belts, gradings or techniques but the ongoing weekly struggle of rolling with multiple opponents in an uncompromising (but still friendly and encouraging) club environment. The long term results gained through small incremental improvements under the guidance of an instructor that had to do the same.
So long as BJJ has that ethos, schemes like this will always be niche (I hope!).