old? pinan go variant bunkai?

[Martin H]

in pinan go there is the rotating double hand movement after the high X-block (that not neccecarily is a block) that is followed by pulling both hands to the left side. Right hand to hitike position, palm up, and the left hand held above it palm down. This is the original technique (and as it is done in other styles) and how it is now.

However, for a _very_ long time we in kyokushin did it with the left hand doing a gyaku kake uke, instead of following the right hand to the side.
This move was changed back to the original version shortly before sosai died. Im sure it is still done in some groups that splintered out before that.

Do anyone have a reason that we did this? every application Ive seen for it has serious logical flaws (most of them involving the rotating movement of the hands, before the kake uke, being totaly unneccecary for the bunkai)

The original & current version is much easier to find god bunkai for, but I liked that move. It was flashy.

[Spirit]

We never changed, but it seems that the move is, removal of a weapon/sword {tachi dori} and then (applied) used against attacker

[ksan]

We use oi kake uke.

Bunkais for that move could be a grab of tori`s hand/wrist and twisting it back to hikite positing (while holding on) and performing a punch to tori`s left side (this is quick of the top of my head), the only problem i see is the distance you cover after the hikite and stepping into the oi tsuki (its further then should be logical when you are holding tori`s hand)...

I will think about this some more....

Osu

Ksan


(p.s. good thread Martin-san )

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by ksan

We use oi kake uke.

Ooop! yeah, it should be oi, not gyaku. Sorry, my mixup.

Bunkais for that move could be a grab of tori`s hand/wrist and twisting it back to hikite positing (while holding on) and performing a punch to tori`s left side (this is quick of the top of my head), the only

Possibly, but I think the hand rotation is unneccecary for that application.

Jap man, I dont really se how you mean. I assume you mean block the weapon with the xblock, use the rotating hands to twist the weapon out of the opponents hands and holding the weapon using it in the kake uku. not sure I can see the xblock used to block a sword or even a club without loosing the use of the arms. Possibly a knife attack with the block going against the arm, not the weapon. But then the rotating move becomes redundant or even dangerous, making it much more convenient to go directly to the kake uke without risking cutting up your hands.

[ksan]

Originally Posted by Martin H

Possibly, but I think the hand rotation is unneccecary for that application.

The Hand rotation wil make tori move in that direction opening his ribs up (more space in between them, sort of) making them weaker and a punch would do more damage that way (breaking bruising)....

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by Martin H

Jap man, I dont really se how you mean. I assume you mean block the weapon with the xblock, use the rotating hands to twist the weapon out of the opponents hands and holding the weapon using it in the kake uku. not sure I can see the xblock used to block a sword or even a club without loosing the use of the arms. Possibly a knife attack with the block going against the arm, not the weapon. But then the rotating move becomes redundant or even dangerous, making it much more convenient to go directly to the kake uke without risking cutting up your hands.

Try it live, a couple of times.... possible you will see, {you're blocking the lead wrist of the sword holder}.
If not then you have debunked the bunkai.

The right hand pivits the weapon holders lead hand as the left hand grabs the weapon. The punch becomes the weapon........though parts of the kata have been removed from this application.

Starting at the morote chudan uchi uke, this could easly be a block of a sword stab {though we chamber to R ear} for seiken juji gedan uke, it could be interpitated as locking the sword and swinging it down to the ground. The next move would be the sword holder drawing back the sword and attacking the head as you shoto juji jodan uke, this is where above comes into play.
Please remember that much is implied {express indirectly} in kata and often much is, as it is not seen.