Prejudice

[seienchin]

DKKC - that is spooky - I could have written that post. I have lived under the perception that things are /were better for women in the UK, but your experience sounds almost identical to mine.

And for those who think that women now have equality - name me 5 men who are branch chiefs (any organisation)...then see how many women you can name.

And visualise this - a woman Kancho in your organisation....not for a few generations, at least, if ever, I think.

Luckily, none of us need permission to train hard and find the Kyokushin way....

[Aunty Ichigeki]

Aw I don't know if it's sensible to expect women to get paid to travel to the Worlds. There are a whole lot less women training than men & I think our road is much easier. We've talked about lack of female competitors in other posts... I don't think most countries have the critical mass to breed female fighters that are equal to their male counterparts. If a man has to win 5 or 6 rounds to win a tourny & a woman only has to win 1 or 2 it's just not fair to the men to insist on equal attention. It was gratifying at the IKO1 Women's Worlds to be given the main mat & best judges (over the senior men and the juniors) but only a handful of women from maybe 2 or 3 countries belonged anywhere near the top 64 at the men's Worlds.

I can almost see a woman branch chief except that by the time we get senior enough the trouble we have getting to training (seems mums find it harder to leave the washing/dishes/kids than dads) means we're not as available as men. Interestingly too, I can only think of one woman in my org who has made it to sandan that isn't in the shadow of an even more senior husband... who clearly would become branch chief ahead of them. I think there may have been 1 or 2 in the past but they're not around anymore.

[Tigeress]

But what about those who are dedcated to kyokushin i don't think that it's fair that men have more oportunities as woman. imean even the first place prizes are diferent at te world's i think woman only get medles whereas men get cups and medles and maybe more not sure.
which brings up anothor question dothose who win get paid?

[kakatootoshi]

Here I dare not raise the debate of whether men or women are better fighters, but indeed there are far less women fighting than men do and the public attention is low. In an All-Japan Weight a few years ago, the men:women ratio was about 4:1 (or more?). And from the public attention point of view, even Media 8 admitted that the sales of the Women's WT was quite poor and now they are going to fit it into other products as highlights only.

May I compare the now comparatively (got to be careful with words here) unfavored women's fighting as an industry (and men's as well)? What are the causes of the current situation? Is this industry suffering unfair competition or is it a problem in itself? Should the government (Kyokushin organizations) provide extra resources to help this industry?

Dear seienchin,
Woman Kancho has existed before and she was the widow of Oyama Sosai (not sure about the daughter of Sosai now). Of course this is an exceptional case. I do not know about the situation in other countries, but in Japan fighting history and seniority are very important for becoming leaders in Kyokushin organizations as I have mentioned in another post. Under these circumstances I think a woman Kancho in Japan is not to be seen in the near future.

OSU!

[Deaken]

Hi,

I firmly disagree. If the worlds are only a representation of those that can afford to go (as they are right now for women) then we will never know if the best are present or if there would be more representation if the cost was covered like it is for the men. How many men would be at the worlds if they all had to pay their own costs to go?

If it is the worlds and this is meant to be a compilation of the best from around the world then there should be the same process as for the men’s worlds. Regional selection through local, national and international results, then a team selected from each country with X number of spots and the cost of those X spots covered to attend.

I don't see comparing women fighting ability at the world level to those of the men as relevant. Women weight lifters at the Olympics lift less weight than the men, does this mean that their field is any less competitive, challenging or arduous to train for than the men's field? It's not like we are talking about the women fighting with the men, so they need to be competitive with each other, not with the men so I don’t see the relevance.

There are a lot of very good women fighters who don’t go to Japan because they can’t afford to or their dojo doesn’t have the means to help them go. I think that this is unfair and unfortunate when the men get their way paid for.

[Aunty Ichigeki]

Deaken you make a good point. Right now it is about who can afford to go. I don't know what the answer is. If you think about it, the current men's system is nowhere near merit based even though it's subsidised. Because the pool of fighters from strong Kyokushin countries is much bigger than little countries so many fighters at the worlds (esp first day) wouldn't get a look in at selection events in those bigger countries. Much better fighters have to sit & watch them get their 5 min of fame. It's great and necessary the international org supports these countries for the growth of the style & development of the fighters (NZ is very grateful) and I guess it wouldn't be a World Tourny if only 5 countries were in it but it still doesn't seem quite fair to those that have worked harder to be better.

... so I guess I'm questioning whether some men should get sponsored to go on exactly the same principal I'm questioning whether women should get sponsored to go! But then these men do make it a World Tourny & there is a market for the product (no market = no money)... some of the best highlights come from day 1 of the Worlds because of the horrible mismatched skill levels! The women don't offer the organisation either of these benefits so it doesn't make sense to put money in their direction. A best of the best event where selection is based on equal merit globally and (fighters are sponsored) would be interesting but then you're limiting your audience too... can't win me thinks.

As for comparing women & men my point was perhaps some women at the World's don't have a skill level that belongs on a world stage. I guess you could say the same for some men on day 1. But at least the men fight in a pool of 128 so if they make it to the end of day 3 they sure deserve a trophy to look up to!

[Deaken]

Yes, from an overall criticall mass perspective I can understand what you are saying, but if we don't start somewhere, then it will never be reached.

I know that the North American weight category and the All American draw about 20-30 women each regularly, many of which are very strong fighters. If we looked to Poland, Russia, Brazil, Japan, Bulgaria, Hungary, Australian, UK, New Zeland etc etc... I am sure that if organized properly and publicised ahead of time (1-2 years) with regional events used as a criteria to be invited that there could also be 120 women.

[DKKC]

Seiunchin,
With regards to my previous post - the first paragraph written was the experience I had in a different country (not the UK) and a different international organisation (not the IFK). The second paragraph applies to everything really - have experienced that sometimes abroad, sometimes in the UK and on different organisations.

With regards to women's skills at a world tournament - I believe they reflect the mentality of their dojos/organisations - if they are taught - they will have something to show - if they are just tolerated to train next to the men's team ... they will suffer. I have seen green belts with limited technical skills but who mastered the few techniques they knew and did very well in tournaments - they were taught properly! I have also seen black belts who knew a vast number of techniques (and combinations) - but were never taught how to deliver them correctly and efficiently, couldn't pick a target, couldn't see an opening if you pointed at it with a big arrow and sign that said 'Opening - hit here!!!!' They would throw techniques in their opponent's general direction. That is lack of teaching! And you see women in this situation far more often than you see men!

I don't believe it matters the number of rounds you have to go through to win a tournament - it's the quality of those rounds that matters. I don't particularly care about the prises either - I don't fight for the cup/medal/certificate - I fight for the love of fighting and actually prefer smaller trophies especially when travelling abroad! But this is a personal opinion and I know that the size does matter to many people!

And going beyond competitions - a woman in a club has the right to be looked at, taught and corrected when making mistakes, regardless whether she intends to fight in a tournament or is there just to keep fit, the same way a man who doesn't want to compete has the same right.

[seienchin]

DKKC - i couldn't agree more.

[cochito]

I remember that when I was in Capoeira, all those girls had been students before I joined. So, they simply kicked my butt (in good way) .
I personally believe any discrimination should be eliminated.
Peace to you all!

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by cochito

I personally believe any discrimination should be eliminated.
Peace to you all!

Two excellent sentiments, Cochito!

Let's all keep working toward both of them.

Osu!

[walshy]

actually in our dojo the men are outnumbered by the girls. Some nights there are only four or five men (sometimes less) to about ten women. There are no problems at all and the higher grade girls are very very helpfull to us low grades.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by walshy

actually in our dojo the men are outnumbered by the girls. Some nights there are only four or five men (sometimes less) to about ten women. There are no problems at all and the higher grade girls are very very helpfull to us low grades.

That's very interesting! I've never heard of a Dojo with those demographics. Is there a reason that the Dojo has been so successful recruiting and keeping female practitioners?

Osu!

[cochito]

Originally Posted by walshy

actually in our dojo the men are outnumbered by the girls. Some nights there are only four or five men (sometimes less) to about ten women. There are no problems at all and the higher grade girls are very very helpfull to us low grades.

Really? I kind of envy that situation. I wish I were there .

[Bloke]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



That's very interesting! I've never heard of a Dojo with those demographics. Is there a reason that the Dojo has been so successful recruiting and keeping female practitioners?

Osu!

Id like to hear the answer to this too - I have never heard of this before.

[ksan]

Originally Posted by walshy

actually in our dojo the men are outnumbered by the girls. Some nights there are only four or five men (sometimes less) to about ten women. There are no problems at all and the higher grade girls are very very helpfull to us low grades.

Your very lucky, most dojo`s i know are 9/10 male....

[Kareyn]

I am the only woman in my dojo. There is a difference, not a discrimmination. I often wonder how these two are misinterpreted.

I have a flatter chest than most of the men in my class so they don't necessarily avoid my breasts! No joke! But I'm small. However, I do sense, and it's only a sense as it's never been spoken or verified, that sometimes I'm punched and kicked and a little harder than is agreed upon and instructed as to by my sensei JUST because I am a woman.