Seiken Push-ups

[seienchin]

I have just discovered that one of my former students has abandoned the discipline of doing her push-ups as seiken, and has been allowed to get away with this by her new instructor.

Should women be required to do seiken pushups - or should they be given a choice?

Should men be required ? or should they be given a choice too?

[Olrac]

In our dojo, the young children are not allowed to do seiken push-ups.
The older children (13/14 and up) and also the children who fight knock-down tournaments will have to do their seiken push-ups.
Adults will always do seiken push-ups, men and women.
osu

[jcc]

I remember having to do push-ups from koken position as well as rolling from koken to seiken, to help strengthen wrists, but that all got dropped somewhere along the line. However, imho dropping seiken would be a step too far, unless there is some solid medical reason, but then if you cannot do the press-up, should you be training at all?

[Dent]

Osu!

Other than etiquette, everything is optional. What you choose to do will determine your success. Don't practice A, you will be weak at B. Don't practice X, you can't do Y.

No one is forced to go to the Dojo, and no one is forced to push themselves. The drive must be internal.

That said, all members should be made aware of the advantages of training all the elements of Karate.

Osu!

[ksan]

Originally Posted by Olrac

In our dojo, the young children are not allowed to do seiken push-ups.
The older children (13/14 and up) and also the children who fight knock-down tournaments will have to do their seiken push-ups.
Adults will always do seiken push-ups, men and women.
osu

16 and up do seiken, under sixteen need to be carefull due to a cartlidge issue in the hands under that age. Further more, no difference between men and women (both seiken and women also not on their knee`s)


Osu

[satodojo]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

Other than etiquette, everything is optional. What you choose to do will determine your success. Don't practice A, you will be weak at B. Don't practice X, you can't do Y.

No one is forced to go to the Dojo, and no one is forced to push themselves. The drive must be internal.

That said, all members should be made aware of the advantages of training all the elements of Karate.

Osu!

Osu, Seienchin san,

I agree with Dent san's comment.
No one should be forced to do any kind of practice.

[Kansetsu]

Honestly, i don't think anyone can TRUELY force anyone to do anything (without mind control). If a person don't want to do it, then they won't...with that said however, i think the student should force his / her self to do things...to get better. Seiken Pushups helps strengthen our hands and especially our wrists. Common sense should say, if i am doing a lot of punches, i should do whatever it takes to strengthen and protect my hands and wrist.

And if a person don't do certain exercises, and gets injured in those places, then they should have ZERO reason to complain...it was your stupid fault for not taking precautions and preventing that particular injury.

OSU!

[tmd]

If you are to fight with a bare fist first you must strengthen it, Seiken is a must for all fighters but not all Karateka & never below 16 as the hands and wrist joints are not mature enough and it may cause problems later in life.

The Seiken position helps strengthen other areas but also puts higher pressures on areas such as Rotor Cuff joins, I for one cannot go as low in Seiken as I can with a flat hand so maybe this has been considered in your friends case? Anyone not doing these at least occasionally is missing out and I would not like them dropped from the gradings.

[hkphooey]

weshould all do the push ups seiken. its what we do its part of our dicpline. the spirit of osu

[tmd]

Originally Posted by hkphooey

weshould all do the push ups seiken. its what we do its part of our dicpline. the spirit of osu

I understand the sentiment but Karate, no, all Martial Arts are about personal development not conforming to set standard, yes in gradings there are standards to be achieved but in your everyday training you train for you and within your own set goals. I say this as someone who used to do 100 in the morning and 50 every evening pluis however many in class all Seiken but now I tend to find a flat handed push up more acceptable to my aging frame so I save my Seikin push ups for tournament training or preparing for gradings - I use them when I need them. Now I think about it in the last 4 years I seem to have gone from grading preperation - to injured - to tournament training - to injured - to grading preparation - to... back in training (next week honest ) for tournament now so back on the fists .

[Raii]

Osu, Kansetsu, well said!

[Shokei Marcsui]

I've been in a dojo were the women were given the option to do either seiken or regular pushups.

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by satodojo

Osu, Seienchin san,

I agree with Dent san's comment.
No one should be forced to do any kind of practice.

hahaha.... when i first read that i misinterpreted the intent as venomously sarcastic. had to think about it for a second and realize that doesnt line up with the general intent of the forum and you were actually agreeing.

sorry, too much time in the vapid core of the internet full of arguments and merciless cynicism.

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by Kansetsu

Honestly, i don't think anyone can TRUELY force anyone to do anything (without mind control). If a person don't want to do it, then they won't...with that said however, i think the student should force his / her self to do things...to get better.

im not presuming to know your level of experience, but if youre not already a high ranked sempai or a sensei in your dojo, remember to watch out for this attitude later on when you are.

never underestimate how far someone will push themselves to keep up. people will push their body beyond its limits to "fit in" and whatnot to the point of injury. its always good to remind people to not sacrifice their body in an attempt to save face.

im sure a lot of people disagree since we train in a style that encourages sacrifice but i have a different point of view due to starting in a dojo full of old senseis with more injuries than a person could count. i like to try to live up to what they taught me in the spirit of "we want people to become old martial artists, not former martial artists due to injury in practice".

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

i like to try to live up to what they taught me in the spirit of "we want people to become old martial artists, not former martial artists due to injury in practice".

I like this idea very much, and thank you for it, as I'm going to write it down and keep it at hand. Sometimes the long term goals can become hazy when the immediate training is at hand.

Osu!

[tmd]

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

never underestimate how far someone will push themselves to keep up. people will push their body beyond its limits to "fit in" and whatnot to the point of injury. its always good to remind people to not sacrifice their body in an attempt to save face.

im sure a lot of people disagree since we train in a style that encourages sacrifice but i have a different point of view due to starting in a dojo full of old senseis with more injuries than a person could count. i like to try to live up to what they taught me in the spirit of "we want people to become old martial artists, not former martial artists due to injury in practice".

Excellent post Shinobijesus - very true, I'm covered in injuries and have to really concentrate on not over doing it when one of them is playing up. Perfect example is Tobi kicks, I can't land on one leg due to my bad ankle, this is a real can't it's not a case of it might hurt but it will hurt and possibly put my training on hold as it has in the past and yet when I'm in the dojo and the time comes I have to really fight the urge to leap in the air, the pressure is personal but bought on by the expectation of grade, reputation and a scene that I must.

[aloha_girl]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

Other than etiquette, everything is optional. What you choose to do will determine your success. Don't practice A, you will be weak at B. Don't practice X, you can't do Y.

No one is forced to go to the Dojo, and no one is forced to push themselves. The drive must be internal.

That said, all members should be made aware of the advantages of training all the elements of Karate.

Osu!

You said it perfectly.

I am currently working towards doing 100 proper seiken pushups. Not an easy feat by any means. If, when I take the Shodan test I was not be able to complete all 100, I don't think I would necessarily fail because of it. However, I won't allow myself to slack because of this knowledge. For me, the benefits of being able to do the 100, is more mental than physical at this point. Knowing I worked on it would make me more confident of myself even when I couldn't do it all.

That being said, doing pushups, staying after class to do kata, or even stretching are all choice. "What you choose to do will determine your success." Totally true.