Problems whit face punching

sublimo · 02-20-2007, 12:27 PM

What do you think about this?
I already practice kyokushin for about 14 years and fight tournaments for already 11 years. But a few month’s ago there was one guy from my dojo that started whit Thai boxing. I’m always interested in martial arts so I joined him.

Man I was so disappointed after wards

. I felt I was fighting like a beginner. Leaning backwards and launch high kicks afraid from the punches to the face. I must admit every time I kicked the Thai boxers to the head, it landed on the targets. But I just walked backwards and sweep the jodans geri´s. I felt like a beginner.

Now I’m improving my guard but still it is so difficult. I’m trying not to move back. Also I’m avoiding launching my high kicks. My goal is not to take them down (yet). But to learn how to box first and afterwards try to make combinations punches and kicks.

The point is that I think the kyokushin must develop to catch up. I mean, admit it, it is the handicap of each kyokushiner. Daido Juku did it but is to weak in organization to spread it all over the world. No offence cause they are now what the kyokushin has to be in my opinion.

What do you guy’s think about it?

Ow yeah the movie shows how the kyokushin has troubles whit face punches.
You tube : kyokushin vs taikinen

Lonewolf · 02-20-2007, 01:49 PM

OSU! You are right about this situation. Originally, Kyokushin fighters also had backgrounds in Japanese Kickboxing, which allows punches to the face wearing boxing gloves. Sosai Oyama felt that putting on the gloves meant that you were not doing Karate anymore, since Karate means empty hands, also not protectors. Bare knuckle face punching was too dangerous for competition, this is where the no face punch rule originated. The problem is: the new, younger generation had no training at all in face punches, since they were mainly training for Kyokushin tournaments. Good news is: alot of Kyokushin groups are recognizing this deficiency and are actively taking steps to correct this. Mr. H. Royama's group has even held a special division in their tournament that allows face punching with gloves. Personally, I think face punch training should be done in a Kickboxing format and that Kyokushin tournaments should remain as they are. I think it should be mandatory for Shodans and above to have Kickboxing training to make up for this void. The face punch training should start at about the Green Belt level and progress as they reach Shodan. Just a thought on my part. Of course, it's up to the instructors what they do about this. OSU!

kyofighter · 02-20-2007, 06:22 PM

sublimo...I was in the same situacion like you...it took me about 6 months of regular kickboxing training to get to the point that I wasn't paniking , and about one year and half to be comfortable with punching and receiving face punches...now I train and teach in bot fighting styles...

Sonik · 02-20-2007, 08:40 PM

I think for people like me and my instructor (who competes in K-1) it's urgent to have more Ishigeki academies all over the world. I also consider that it would be great if there was an Ishigeki World Tournament every year with K-1 and MMA rules for diferent weight classes. What do you guys think of this?

**nzproud** · 02-20-2007, 09:03 PM

Ichigeki event every year would be nice and entertaining for fans.

I too felt the same about kickboxing. I tend to close my eyes when punches are thrown to my face. I'm getting used to it though. Occasional kickboxing sessions are awesome!

Aunty Ichigeki · 02-21-2007, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonik

I think for people like me and my instructor (who competes in K-1) it's urgent to have more Ishigeki academies all over the world. I also consider that it would be great if there was an Ishigeki World Tournament every year with K-1 and MMA rules for diferent weight classes. What do you guys think of this?

Love it! And women's divisions please

I think the idea of Ichigeki academies all over the world is great. But Ichigeki Japan employ top kickboxers & boxers because they are professional but most clubs can't afford to do that & won't attract instructors with the skills we need without $$$. What would be good is an Ichigeki syllabus to train Kyokushin instructors how to teach K1/Ichigeki style fighting. What we just learned from Jayson Vemoa was perfect. If we could go through a program of leaning how to teach and be assessed in a proper system we could then apply to use the Ichigeki brand name & make it HUGE!

sonofkanga · 02-21-2007, 11:09 AM

just a thought,we hold special training sessions on a regular basis with a good boxing trainer.not too expensive,lots of fun and good imput from everyone.

Kyokushin555 · 02-21-2007, 01:53 PM

Well I think as posted earlier is that there should be two divisions. One for normal tournament fighthing. Another would be with face punching, but only for Shodans. Because throwing in face punches changes the whole system of fighting. Some people just think oh, well I just have to keep my guard up. Its much more than that, I have entered MMA matches before. It has taken me a long time to get used to not flinching when a face punch is thrown. After extensive training I have gotten use to it. If there were bare knuckle face punches the fights would be much much shorter. All it takes is the right hit on the jaw, just like any head kick, but the punch is easier. I mean basicaly all you would need is speed and you would dominate. I think by not having the face punches it brings a whole new level of endurance to a fight. I mean think about it, take a ranking hard hitting boxer, teach him how to stretch and kick. That would be one of the most lethal weapons right there. I mean he has all the speed he needs in his hands, and every now and then throw a kick to confuse his opponent then BAM a right hook or jab to the face and KO.

I think it would definetly make it more realistic, but I like the Kyokushin tournaments the way they are. Just my opinion.

sublimo · 02-21-2007, 02:57 PM

I think it is a great Idea to start up the Ichi Geki in different countries. But the problem is: who will teach it? And as we all know it is related whit IKO 1 so may the rest of the kyokushin organizations join them? It is a whole lots off work to make such an organization and who will control it and so on? I mean there are lots off kyokushin schools but not all are from the same level. I think we must think very carefully what is the best solution. And as heads off the organization don’t get well whit each other it would be so difficult to improve our style. First we must get back to one organization, but that’s sience fiction.

sublimo · 02-21-2007, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyokushin555

Well I think as posted earlier is that there should be two divisions. One for normal tournament fighthing. Another would be with face punching, but only for Shodans. Because throwing in face punches changes the whole system of fighting. Some people just think oh, well I just have to keep my guard up. Its much more than that, I have entered MMA matches before. It has taken me a long time to get used to not flinching when a face punch is thrown. After extensive training I have gotten use to it. If there were bare knuckle face punches the fights would be much much shorter. All it takes is the right hit on the jaw, just like any head kick, but the punch is easier. I mean basicaly all you would need is speed and you would dominate. I think by not having the face punches it brings a whole new level of endurance to a fight. I mean think about it, take a ranking hard hitting boxer, teach him how to stretch and kick. That would be one of the most lethal weapons right there. I mean he has all the speed he needs in his hands, and every now and then throw a kick to confuse his opponent then BAM a right hook or jab to the face and KO.

I think it would definetly make it more realistic, but I like the Kyokushin tournaments the way they are. Just my opinion.

I don´t think that it is right. See the boxer that tries to enter the K1. They can´t block low kicks or is bad in avoiding High kicks. Even a thai boxer hahas it difficult to block the kyokushin kicks. If I fight whit a thaiboxer and use my kicks they always hit target. Reason: the wants to block it like they block a punch. And as a Kyokushiner turns the knee a little bit more as a thaiboxer (brazilian kick) the thai boxers has it difficult to block. We mostley blocks kicks whit our gard a littlebit away from the head. Thats the way you have to block the jodans. But on the otherhand it is not the way to block face punches. So it is difficult to say what will be the best if we add facepuches to our tournament. Maybe the helmets like the daido juku will be a good alternative?

Martin H · 02-21-2007, 03:21 PM

It will be very interesting to see how the next Royama Kyokushin-kan tournament, with the new face-punch/throw rule will go.

From their demo fights when they announced the new rules last year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDImLQBFmVo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKx7LTSg9Co

**sokaiya** · 02-21-2007, 07:54 PM

I don't believe there's a need to change the system of the way we train or fight but a change for the people who have achieved their blackbelts.

Sonik · 02-22-2007, 01:47 AM

I'm saying this because the man who taught me most of what i know about Kyokushin Karate now competes in K-1. In fact our training is all about Kickboxing but we still keep some Kyokushin tradition (we just quit traditional kihon and kata). I still attend some traditional Kyokushin classes in another dojo but i think it's going to close because there are very few students there(only russians and one or two ucranians). And now some of them are thinking about switching to my dojo wich may be the best option for someone who comes form a Kyokushin Karate background. I say this because there are some stupid Kickboxing instructors and stundets who like to push hard against the guys who come from a traditional martial art just to prove they're stronger. It happened to a friend of mine. Fortunately he had more skill than the instructor had imagined and although he got his nose bleeding, he managed to break this man's ribs with a shudan mawashi geri. That was great because it was a pure instinctive reaction.

sublimo · 02-22-2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin H

It will be very interesting to see how the next Royama Kyokushin-kan tournament, with the new face-punch/throw rule will go.

From their demo fights when they announced the new rules last year:

Man I looove it!

It s not so spectacular cause their looked not comfortable whit it, but that’s not the point! They are developing and that’s what so great! They even do a little grappling! That is what the future kyokushin must become. I think Sihan Royama took a big step and what is even better is that he didn’t chance the name!

Whit this system we can enter other disciplines such as pride and K1. I mean more often.

To Sonic: I don’t agree. If you do Kyokushin, you have to respect the kite’s etc. Otherwise, what is the difference whit kickboxing and kyokushin if you just do kick boxing and no kata´s? How can you be a 1st Dan when you can’t walk kata´s? I also prefer to fight and heavy bag training but I respect my kata´s.

Anyway who is your sensei that fights K1?

Best egards.

Azimuth · 02-22-2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aunty Ichigeki

most clubs can't afford to do that & won't attract instructors with the skills we need without $$$.

You can always visit a kick box / thai box club and just ask them if you can train along .
You can just ask if you can do a few test trainingsessions.
Every training you can join you can learn ; )
For their members it is also an experience to fight against somebody with a complete different way of sparring .

Kudoist · 02-23-2007, 01:17 PM

I switched from Kyokushin to Daidojuku because I felt the need to encorporate face punching and grappling.

As was already mentioned, its more than just a matter of raising your guard, its a whole different style of fighting. The range and tactics are very different.
The helmets we wear in Kudo do allow us face punching without gloves but there are drawbacks too.
For 1 thing its hard to breathe and takes a while to get used to.
Also the helmet absorbs alot of the impact , so punches aren't as effective as they are in gloved fights. Especially straight punches.
This means some guys tend to just walk in swinging without good defence skills. If they tried that with gloves on and no helmet, they'd get KO'd alot easier. Bad habit!

Fighting with gloves on the other hand makes defence easier, because you can hide behind the big gloves. An ungloved fist can squeeze through small oppennings, making effective defence alot harder. So some gloved fighters can get the habit of just covering up in defence. A bad habit if you have self defence as your goal.

So both methods have pros and cons.

It will be interesting to see what direction Kyokushin takes in this issue.
I think it deffinately needs to be addressed.

im.aho · 02-23-2007, 03:56 PM

http://www.kamakura.demon.nl/pages/images/denisow.jpg

Found this picture on the Kamakura website. Maybe this fighter fought with bare knuckle face punches?

Tough guy in a tough looking picture regardless! OSU!

Sonik · 02-23-2007, 06:06 PM

Sublimo, my intructor is no longer with IKO-1. He's a national Kickboxing/ Boxing champion and is now focused mainly in Kicboxing / K-1. His name is Humberto Evora. He already fought against Sergey Gur, Tony Gregory, Rani Berbachi, Pettar Mastrovich, Errol Zimmerman, Petr Vondrachek and some others in K-1. In case you didn't understand, what i meant was that Kata and traditional Kihon is kinda useless if you're training for K-1 or MMA competiton. We just keep other elements of Kyokushin Karate (conditioning, warm-up, discipline etc).

Sonik · 02-23-2007, 06:08 PM

Hey poncho that's a burtal image!! Looks like he just came out from the battle of Iwo Jima!!

schuyler · 02-23-2007, 06:10 PM

Here's my problem with face punching in Kyokushin after watching those Royama videos: The fighters seem to forget that they can kick! Powerful kicks is what sets Kyokushin apart from other styles. If we add punches to the head in all our tournaments, I think fights will end much faster as fighters will concentrate on getting that one punch to the face that downs the opponent. While that is a good strategy, again, it will make for boring fights.

Yes, we do need to learn to defend head shots, but I personally like our tournaments the way they are now. I have nothing but respect for fighters that make the transition from Kyokushin to K-1, but NOT having a boxers nose and cauliflower ears I think sits well with a lot of Kyokushin students.

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