Blackbelt shotokan in a kyokushin dojo.

[sublimo]

What if a black belt shotokan (or other style) enters your dojo and train whit you?

A lots off katas are similar. He has to adapt that´s for sure but...

1) Can he put s his belt on and were a kyokushin gi?
2) Or does he has to start whit a white belt?
3) Is it allowed to wear another gi in your dojo? (if he wants do be a member for a long time?)
4)Will you take off your shodan if you train an other karate style such as ashihara etc.
5)How long does he has to train before he can join examination tests.

Thanks in advance to help me out!

[ksan]

Originally Posted by sublimo

What if a black belt shotokan (or other style) enters your dojo and train whit you?

A lots off katas are similar. He has to adapt that´s for sure but...

1) Can he put s his belt on and were a kyokushin gi? Yes
2) Or does he has to start whit a white belt? No
3) Is it allowed to wear another gi in your dojo? (if he wants do be a member for a long time?) For a short time its no problem, if he wants to become a member, in time, he has to put on a kanji
4)Will you take off your shodan if you train an other karate style such as ashihara etc. If thats the only way they will allow me to train... sure why not
5)How long does he has to train before he can join examination tests. First off he needs to be assessed by the national grading board for his current grade, but a good instructor wont put him in front of that board before he is ready. For his nidan he needs to qualify under our rules for that and not sooner.
Thanks in advance to help me out!

Osu....

Ksan

[Martin H]

1. Formally speaking, no. Wearing a black belt to a kyokushin gi signifies a kyokushin grade. Informally, when everyone knows who he is, noone may care.
2. If he "convert" to kyokushin yes. No matter his grade in shotokan, aikido or whatever, his kyokushin rank is whitebelt. He will probably rise through the grades quickly though.
If he wants to train as a guest -even for a extended period, he can wear his old belt.
Although there are no rule without exceptions.
3. As a guest, yes. Informally (when everyone knows who he is) yes. Formally speaking, if he is "switching" to kyokushin, no. no more than any other kyokushin student may show up in a shotokan Gi. Not that this rule may be all that strictly enforced.
4. depends on their rules. but if you train there as a guest, no.

Basically it is a question if he wants to switch to kyokushin and take kyokushin grades, or if he want to train as a guest with his shotokan grade.

[Spirit]

I'll say this first...
Sosai recognized many yudanshas rank in the early days and never made them start over... example Bobby Lowe, John Farrell, & Don Buck a very small example of the many many who Sosai recognized in the 50's, 60's, 70's, & 80's...

Sosai's rank from shotokan was also recognized when he went to goju!!!

I cleaned up the "?'s" a little bit spelling, etc...

1) Can he/she wear their rank belt on a kyokushin gi?
***YES. Gi is just a gi and really has no meaning or power etc it is the style patches that maybe asked to be removed if the student will train for a long time etc...

2) Or does he/she have to start at white belt?
***NO, see statement above...
Though Yes on some students do to their quality of knowledge do to their poor instructors knowledge. It is not the students falt for their quality of knowledge it is the instructors!?! I would ask the new student to train as a white belt for one month so I can evaluate them and after that sit down and talk with them on how I feel their skills fit into the level of the dojos requirments.

3) Is it allowed to wear another gi in your dojo? (if he/she wants do be a member for a long time?)
***Yes, if a friend of mine, though after a few months I would ask them to follow the requirmnets of the dojo. No, if I do not know the new student.

4)Will you take off your shodan if you train another karate style such as ashihara etc.
***NO, once yudansha always yudansha... As a student of Karate for over 30 years I don't think it would be asked of me. Though possibly it would be asked to youth shodans (both years of training and age). Again I woukld (if I did not know the student or his/her instructor) ask them to wear a white belt for one month so I could evaluate them......

5)How long does he/she need to train before he/she can attend examination tests.
*** I would not look at time (student from another style of M/A) but skills and knowledge. I would consider testing based on how well they have picked up the kata, etc as needed. Since the person already (assumingly) knows the basics of "Karate" in general, learning will be at a much quicker pace. The student would need to be able to pass all requirments without any question of doubt per test.
This would be a person that I have know knowledge of nor of their instructor. A student I know and or his instructor I would extend different requriments once I evaluated the student or talked with his instrutor.

Each situation requires a different approuch to the answer on this one. The instructor sometimes needs to make decisions to keep all happy within the dojo and sometimes he/she needs to shoot from the hip based on their knowledge of the student. Everyone will have their own good opinions on this "?" and I would say that each answer will fit the dojo of each instructor!!!

[Kris]

Sure there are a lot of formalities to observe, but the biggest difference is if it is a full contact style or not. Non or light contact schools are not easily adapted to fc.

[sublimo]

Thanks for your reply. I will discuss it in our dojo!

[ksan]

sublimo,

i now see your IFK, just ask Hanshi next time you see him... than you will have your answer....

Osu

[sublimo]

Originally Posted by jap man

Each situation requires a different approuch to the answer on this one. The instructor sometimes needs to make decisions to keep all happy within the dojo and sometimes he/she needs to shoot from the hip based on their knowledge of the student. Everyone will have their own good opinions on this "?" and I would say that each answer will fit the dojo of each instructor!!!

Hm, I think this is the answer I need. Their is no straight answer I think. It depends on the sitation.

We just wants to handel correctly and fair. It is a dellicate case.

[kyofighter]

True , each situation is different . It depends on the karateka.
Just recently I had a student join us from kempo . He is a brown belt in kempo and we decided that he will keep his belt until he learns everything required in kyokushin for brown belt and then he will test for 2nd kyu. He is dedicated and a fast learner due to his previouse experience, so he is wearing a kyokushin gi with a kempo brown belt.

[schuyler]

My good friend and old roommate is a shodan in Shotokan and trained regularly with the Seattle Kyokushin club. He, along with any other 'outsider', was encouraged to wear his original obi unless he decided he wanted to test for rank within our system.

[im.aho]

I think it's better for the shodan who is visiting another dojo to wear a white belt out of humbleness and respect instead.

[kyofighter]

It is all relativ - it can also be considered disrespectfull to ask someone to take the belt off , like you don't recognise his skills...personaly I welcome anyone in the dojo with any belt , only if they want to join us then rulles are changing.

[ksan]

Originally Posted by kyofighter

It is all relativ - it can also be considered disrespectfull to ask someone to take the belt off , like you don't recognise his skills...personaly I welcome anyone in the dojo with any belt , only if they want to join us then rulles are changing.

I agree, same line has been set out by my first instructor and i will follow that... I agree on it not beeing respectfull to ask a yudansha to take of his belt if he wants to train (on the other hand i have no problem with it if i have to take mine off to train somewhere else, as long as i am allowed to join in the lesson)....

this is just my personal vision on the matter and it being a delicate matter i think its a thing that can and will differ greatly per dojo. I think i know who sublimo`s sensei`s are... they are very fair and i trust them to take a well founded decission...

[sublimo]

Dear all,

Thanks for your reply. Here is what we decides at our dojo. He can keep his belt on but has to cover the kanji. There will be no other sign off shotokan are whatever. A blanco gi.

As for the examination: he has to train in de dojo for one year and adapt his fight and kata style to the kyokushin style. So afther 1 year he may do his examination for shodan kyokushin.

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by sublimo

Dear all,

Thanks for your reply. Here is what we decides at our dojo. He can keep his belt on but has to cover the kanji. There will be no other sign off shotokan are whatever. A blanco gi.

As for the examination: he has to train in de dojo for one year and adapt his fight and kata style to the kyokushin style. So afther 1 year he may do his examination for shodan kyokushin.

I think it is an error on setting the time frame....
Do you think that in 1 year you could learn all shotokan kata and "CHANGE" your skills to focus on a Karate that is different in the physical concepts.

I'll can tell (first hand knowledge)you that the styles may have a few katas that are very much alike, the systems are night and day. Linear karate is shotokan base, kyokushin is linear and sabaki style karate. As well the ideologies are very different (based on your teachers knowledge???)
Also the students past instructor was great impact on how he learned, as well how often he trains and how you teach him and your knowledge in kyokushin as well teaching cross over students who already have years of training in a different style.
Personal conflict happens and many instructors do not have the understanding (not saying you don't though this area needs to be addressed) or forsight to understand the conflict that the student is going through to change.
Plase understand that I'm not telling you how or what to or not to do!! Just pointing out that there is many issuses that may not be known or understood...

[sublimo]

Dear,

You are right about the fact that the ideologies are diffrent. That is what we are trying to guide him. About the time frame, we let him do his examination. That doesn´t mean that he will past. I mean mostly if we sent a member off our dojo to an examination, he is well prepared. He will do his examination shodan not in our dojo but on a camp. Mostley IFK rules, so Sihan Pickdael will take the examination or Sihan Shichinohe from the union.

But you are very right about the diffrent ideologie. We will explain him about the kyokushin ideologie.

About the time limit: indeed it depends on the person himself. But he gets a chance to prove him afther 1 year off training.

[ksan]

Originally Posted by jap man

I think it is an error on setting the time frame....
Do you think that in 1 year you could learn all shotokan kata and "CHANGE" your skills to focus on a Karate that is different in the physical concepts.

I'll can tell (first hand knowledge)you that the styles may have a few katas that are very much alike, the systems are night and day. Linear karate is shotokan base, kyokushin is linear and sabaki style karate. As well the ideologies are very different (based on your teachers knowledge???)
Also the students past instructor was great impact on how he learned, as well how often he trains and how you teach him and your knowledge in kyokushin as well teaching cross over students who already have years of training in a different style.
Personal conflict happens and many instructors do not have the understanding (not saying you don't though this area needs to be addressed) or forsight to understand the conflict that the student is going through to change.
Plase understand that I'm not telling you how or what to or not to do!! Just pointing out that there is many issuses that may not be known or understood...

Osu Jap man,

Talked to sublimo yesterday about this and as far as i know the shotokan blackbelt has been training already for a while now, and the time frame has been moved up or so for a grading. Sounds fair to me, plus i know sublimo`s sensei personally and he is pretty good and very fair on matters like this... i trust for his sensei to make a well thought through decision...

I also think its a good sign the sensei is talking with the other dojo members about how to go about in this matter, you dont see that everywhere...


Osu

[SHIHAN MERCADO]

I have had a few shotokan students come to my dojo and this was my experience. One was in very good shape and his technique was good and he was a brown belt. I taught him the differences in the kata and he maintained the training under me and in 6 months I tested him for 1st kyu. The other was a black belt and his conditioning, technique and fighting needed a lot of work so I am in the process of working with him. He would not be ready to test in july but I am confident that he will be ready for the December test. One thing that we must keep in mind is that no matter how solid his training was it is still not Kyokushin. Even among other Kyokushin dojos the training is completely different because we have some instructors that are just money hungry.

[orisha66]

Osu. They do have diffrent ideology.
When i left NY and relocated to Ohio, i had two choices...join the shotokan club or the TKD club who style of TKD came from a student of Funakoshi, i guess creating a Korean Shotakan. But anyway, i chose the shotokan and I already had my shodan in kyokushin and the sensei let me keep my belt the whole time. when i first started with them and doing the drills and kata, the sensei kept saying to me..."You are not doing Goju now, this is shotokan!" and i would be thinking??? Goju???. Finally, I tested for rank after 2 years. After receiving my nidan in shotokan, i went back to NY to train with Shihan Oliver and all the deshi, besides the joking on my hi-water gi, they kept saying..."You look like shotokan trying to kyokushin". So even though Sosai came from Funakoshi and the Heians and Pinans are about 80% the same and even that TKD dojang that i mensioned earlier, the master of the school new all the forms of shotokan and would ask his blackbelts to do the equivilant from their style. I guess you can say to some extent; they are the same in basic and then kyoku evolved into something different in the advanced stage.

[Marc]

I had difficulty adapting from Shorin-Ryu for some time. Katas are similar and so are techniques. I still find myself slipping after over 4 years of Kyokushin.