Tournament system fair or not?

[sublimo]

Dear all,

I have some thoughts were I struggle whit. It is just that I think that the tournament system is not always "fair". I don’t mean the rules but the "system".

I mean for example: It is not always the best fighter who goes to the final. Sometimes your opponent doesn’t show up due an injury etc. It even could happen that you almost didn’t fought very hard and get to the finalls compare whit your opponent who is heavy injured or exhausted because he fought a lot more or bigger opponents.

I often hear expressions like: If you are truly the best you get to the finals. I think: So not!

Do you guy’s think it’s fair? I mean the system is fair because everybody has the same start. But still I don’t think that the champion is the ALWAYS the best.

What are your opinions?

Looking forward for your reply!

Best regards

[ksan]

Osu Sublimo,

I have seen and heard a lot of bad things. in competitions. Fighters from the organising dojo/country always get the bye`s (when you go to tournaments annually and the organising dojo has 1 star fighter and he always doesnt show until the semi-finals, thats odd. I can understand once or twice, but not that same fighter 4 or 5 years in a row). I have seen weight classes being shifted by 2 or 3 kilo`s (upward) After the original tournament statements were sent out, because a certain fighter or fighters (again from the organising dojo/country) couldnt make their weight limit (a year later it was back to normal). I have seen fighters suddenly show up at a different spot in the tournament draw (halfway through the tournament) Because that side had less "good" fighters (so one or more fighters would get further on without sustaining injuries or having long and hard matches). I have seen unplanned and unneeded judge and referee changes (in finals and semi finals) where suddenly all the judges and the referee were from the same country (the organising country) and one of the finalists was also from that country. Fighters beeing taken out by their coach (in favor of another fighter from the same country/dojo) because the other fighter then would have a bye in the semi or quarter final. I have seen and heard about 5 or 6 extensions (so were talking about round 7) on matches where one fighter continiously had to be picked up and put straight by the referee and again it was hikiwake (they fought on till the one who wasnt allowed to win, made a slight mistake and got disqualified and the winner was rushed off to hospital) I have seen fighters play tag&tickle in finals because they are from the same country, while murdering all and everyone that came before them in the rounds before that. In the last case some organisers are now disqualifying both fighters for this and put up nr 3 and 4 to fight the final.

So ... no competions arent fair... but we are kyokushin, we deal with it and if you win against the odd`s then your a true champion. And if you win by a trick then you arent (and everyone knows when thats the case).

One of my instructors used to say, even if you win a tournament and are in shambles, you didnt win.

My belief is, when you are a tournament fighter, you shouldnt be concerned about things like this. Some tournaments you will have a better draw than other tournament, all part of the "game".

Osu

Ksan

[Martin H]

it always depends on the oposition. a favourite fighter might get banged up early in the tournament vs a good fighters and either leave walkover or lose due to the damage in the next round. A fighter who face lesser opposition might sail through and win in the final vs a superior fighter who has faced tougher opposition and has taken more damage, even if he would never lose if he was fresh. And this is assuming that there is no dodgy favouritism among the judges or in the seeding -which we all know unfortunately is not totaly unheard of.

"centralkickboxing" (well known on most kickboxing forums) have a ranking system where only the first round in a tournament (read k-1 as that is his focus) is single fights.
After that it is actually a team fight where your team is you and every fighter your opponent has faced earlier than tournament (and his team is all the fighters you have faced earlier in the tournament).

But that is the way of tournament sport. unless you switch to holding a ranking system where each fighter only have one fight each night (and with time to rest and recover between fightnights) like in pro boxing/kickboxing, you just have to live with it or come up with a better way.

[sublimo]

Originally Posted by Martin H

But that is the way of tournament sport. unless you switch to holding a ranking system where each fighter only have one fight each night (and with time to rest and recover between fightnights) like in pro boxing/kickboxing, you just have to live with it or come up with a better way.

You come whit a very good point here. Although it is not the old traditional kyokushin way but it is a more "fair" system. But it is almost impossible to make something like this I think. Although... Hm Now I´m just don´t have the experience to organize something like this. But hmm you bring me on an idea.... Hm...

I´m a first kyu and now fighting+ my shodan evaluation is my priority but who knows over 10 years?? hm.; I’m a kind of a dreamer you see...

Thanks!

[sublimo]

Originally Posted by ksan

Osu Sublimo,

I have seen and heard a lot of bad things. in competitions. Fighters from the organising dojo/country always get the bye`s (when you go to tournaments annually and the organising dojo has 1 star fighter and he always doesnt show until the semi-finals, thats odd. I can understand once or twice, but not that same fighter 4 or 5 years in a row). I have seen weight classes being shifted by 2 or 3 kilo`s (upward) After the original tournament statements were sent out, because a certain fighter or fighters (again from the organising dojo/country) couldnt make their weight limit (a year later it was back to normal). I have seen fighters suddenly show up at a different spot in the tournament draw (halfway through the tournament) Because that side had less "good" fighters (so one or more fighters would get further on without sustaining injuries or having long and hard matches). I have seen unplanned and unneeded judge and referee changes (in finals and semi finals) where suddenly all the judges and the referee were from the same country (the organising country) and one of the finalists was also from that country. Fighters beeing taken out by their coach (in favor of another fighter from the same country/dojo) because the other fighter then would have a bye in the semi or quarter final. I have seen and heard about 5 or 6 extensions (so were talking about round 7) on matches where one fighter continiously had to be picked up and put straight by the referee and again it was hikiwake (they fought on till the one who wasnt allowed to win, made a slight mistake and got disqualified and the winner was rushed off to hospital) I have seen fighters play tag&tickle in finals because they are from the same country, while murdering all and everyone that came before them in the rounds before that. In the last case some organisers are now disqualifying both fighters for this and put up nr 3 and 4 to fight the final.

So ... no competions arent fair... but we are kyokushin, we deal with it and if you win against the odd`s then your a true champion. And if you win by a trick then you arent (and everyone knows when thats the case).

One of my instructors used to say, even if you win a tournament and are in shambles, you didnt win.

My belief is, when you are a tournament fighter, you shouldnt be concerned about things like this. Some tournaments you will have a better draw than other tournament, all part of the "game".

Osu

Ksan

Wooow I did´t knew that much was going on. 6 rounds? afther the second extention there is something called ensho-sen, weight or boards.

So you agree that sometimes the system is not always fair. Hm Ksan what do you think about Martin´s Idea? The rankings? But will it be accepted by the organizations? Maybe they will get the idea it is to much kick boxing minded. Although, it has actually nothing to do whit it. But I really likes the idea.

[Spirit]

Even the first handfull of Kyokushin touneys had many questionable issues and for years no non japanese even won..., and many could or even should have....W. Williams comes to mind!
It is an issue of being human not style.
Man has the overwelling urge to win at any cost, look at wars and modern day sports...
Psychologist state that sports is a rerplacement to war...............tournement fighting is war and man will do what they have to do to win, many cheat.

SADLY, it is not correct, and many times it is set up to make a person win who would not without their help.
I guess if you wish to tourney fight you have to deal with these issues and just be more prepaired than anyone else to over come anything that stands in your way and then stand tall once all is said and done!!!

[ksan]

Originally Posted by sublimo

Wooow I did´t knew that much was going on. 6 rounds? afther the second extention there is something called ensho-sen, weight or boards.

So you agree that sometimes the system is not always fair. Hm Ksan what do you think about Martin´s Idea? The rankings? But will it be accepted by the organizations? Maybe they will get the idea it is to much kick boxing minded. Although, it has actually nothing to do whit it. But I really likes the idea.

IKO 1 already has a ranking system (in Europe) Texeira and Conquet from Holland are on it i think.

And about the 6 rounds, if a "kancho says, no weights, no boards" then it is no weights no boards. The refs in such a situation are ussually fairly well instructed... Last know example of this was a tournament in France about 4 years back... (went to two unplanned extra rounds, if i remember correctly)

Osu

Ksan

[ksan]

Originally Posted by jap man

Even the first handfull of Kyokushin touneys had many questionable issues and for years no non japanese even won..., and many could or even should have....W. Williams comes to mind!
It is an issue of being human not style.
Man has the overwelling urge to win at any cost, look at wars and modern day sports...
Psychologist state that sports is a rerplacement to war...............tournement fighting is war and man will do what they have to do to win, many cheat.

SADLY, it is not correct, and many times it is set up to make a person win who would not without their help.
I guess if you wish to tourney fight you have to deal with these issues and just be more prepaired than anyone else to over come anything that stands in your way and then stand tall once all is said and done!!!

Willy Williams is one of the best examples and he is the bigger man and a true champion for how he dealt with it....

I cant tell you who won that tournament, but i know Willy Williams was in it and was the strongest.... thats what i meant in my previous post.....


Osu

Ksan

[kakatootoshi]

Let me focus on the ranking system on a world scale.
I think the ranking system (as used in Europe) is only suitable for regional determination of champion or used in conjunction with existing tournaments. Kyokushin is only an amateur sport, and most athletes cannot financially afford a year-round “league” system that requires frequent overseas travels. And the conversion of points between national championships will be controversial (is it more difficult to win All-Japan or All-Russia?). The most feasible way for a big amateur sports organization like Kyokushin to determine the world champion is by renting a big stadium and fly people from all over the world to beat the daylight out of each other within several days. A “group elimination” system like FIFA World Cup may be fairer but again money and injuries are big problems. I use this example to illustrate that we must take into consideration the nature of our sport and our resources when we plan a tournament.

The quality of refereeing is controversial in Kyokushin in these years. Unnecessary extensions are added to give favors to some fighters. If fighter A cannot win in honsen, you will see hikiwake until mysteriously you see 3-2 or something less convincing. To me a true Kyokushin champion is both decided by the officials on the shiaijo and also the audiences in the stadium (excluding people who do not know Kyokushin).

OSU!

[ksan]

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

The quality of refereeing is controversial in Kyokushin in these years. Unnecessary extensions are added to give favors to some fighters. If fighter A cannot win in honsen, you will see hikiwake until mysteriously you see 3-2 or something less convincing. To me a true Kyokushin champion is both decided by the officials on the shiaijo and also the audiences in the stadium (excluding people who do not know Kyokushin).

Osu Kakatootoshi,

I totally agree with you on this.

Osu

[schuyler]

Life isn't fair, neither are tournaments. A ranking system isn't going to happen either, especially with so many different organizations that often compete in each other's tournaments. I can't stand people that blame their loses on biased judging. Fight hard and win/lose with dignity. Judges do the best they can; I refuse to believe that any organization would actually tell their judges to vote for a particular fighter....There must still be some honor left in Kyokushin.

[effectz]

a loss is a loss, no matter what happens. thats the way i look at it. im happy that there is always someone stronger, and because of that i keep training. a sempai from poland once told me that in tournament there are 6 opponents; the person you are fighting and the 5 judges. if you can knock your opponent out, there is no doubt in the mind of the judges that youve won.

thats my outlook on it, and i keep that in mind when i am training for competition.

[sublimo]

Originally Posted by effectz

a loss is a loss, no matter what happens. thats the way i look at it. im happy that there is always someone stronger, and because of that i keep training. a sempai from poland once told me that in tournament there are 6 opponents; the person you are fighting and the 5 judges. if you can knock your opponent out, there is no doubt in the mind of the judges that youve won.

thats my outlook on it, and i keep that in mind when i am training for competition.

I think you must read Ksans mail. "A loss is a loss", yes indeed. But not always fair. That´s what the topic is about.

About the sempai vision: yes that´s a great vision! 6 opponents to convince that you are the better one.

[seienchin]

I can't speak as a full-contact officionado - when I was at tournament age, women weren't allowed to fight full-contact. I only ever did one full-contact tournament, as a shodan, at the age of 30, and the draw was small, because so few women partipated. Every year, I would train, hoping to have enough women to form a tournament, and every year, about a week out, it would be cancelled. AARRGH. When there was finally a full draw, I came out of tournament "retirement" to participate (on no training...).

One of my great saddnesses was that I didn't get to hone my fighting skills in full-contact tournaments during my kyu grade years. It really placed me at a disadvantage against my male training mates, who could do two or three (or more) full-contact tourneys a year, and it taught them a lot...about their fighting, but also about themselves.

I agree with you that tournaments are inherently unfair...how could they be fair when so much relies on systems that a fraught with human error. however, they are as fair as the generallly well-intentioned organisers can make them. I truly don't think any tournament organiser (and I have participated in organising quite a few) sits down at the start and asks themselves "how can I rig this"?

go in tournaments. Grab that opportunity. but don't focus on the fairness or the result. If you win in a tournaament (and I have won in those I was allowed to do - non contact, semi-contact, and kata etc) it means nothing other than that the person who could have beaten you got injured or didn't turn up...because there is ALWAYS a person who could have beaten you. None of us is unbeatable. Winning is fun, but it is important to keep it in perspective.

In kyokushin, it should not be about about winning tournaments. The tournaments are a tool to help develop the karateka. They are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. and remember, no matter how "unfair" it is, you can still push yourself and learn about yourself, and grow. I would have given just about anything to be able to do full-contact tournaments as I "grew up" as a karateka, even if I knew from the outset that I would not be allowed to win.

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by seienchin

I truly don't think any tournament organiser (and I have participated in organising quite a few) sits down at the start and asks themselves "how can I rig this"?

Sadly that is not quite the case...
I know of a couple of world renown Kyokushin Dan's that have or tried to do this a few times...

But overall I agree with you seienchin, what you have said, as well most of you...

I have been D/Q for arguing against points Given to me by poor or "friendly" judges....

It is up to the fighter to bring in ethics to each match, if the judges etc do not...

[Billy no mates]

Originally Posted by seienchin

I agree with you that tournaments are inherently unfair...how could they be fair when so much relies on systems that a fraught with human error. however, they are as fair as the generallly well-intentioned organisers can make them. I truly don't think any tournament organiser (and I have participated in organising quite a few) sits down at the start and asks themselves "how can I rig this"?

Tournaments certainly have been if not fixed then certainly very well 'managed' sadly the World Tournaments during Sosai's life are notable for it,happily the sort of pressure that caused such behaviour just doesn't exist in most organisations now .

[seienchin]

Osu billy-no-mates.
I know that this allegation has been around a lot. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire. The idealist in me doesn't want to acknowledge it. the part of me that still communicates with my rational brain accepts that it could be true.
It doesn't really matter...except to ponder...if one accepts that Sosai did this..why? I don't subscribe to the Sosai as "god" school of thought. He was as mortal as the rest of us, and having his annointed fighter win could have been one of his weaknesses. Alternatively, perhaps he also realised that the "best" fighter, was not a role model that he wanted held up to other karateka, so engineered things to ensure an outcome of a worthy champion. I really don't know. It's not the kind of conversation one can have really, is it "Hey..how'sit going? What are your motives for rigging tournaments...mine are...".
The point remains...the only opponent we must really master is ourselves. Those who can do tournaments can use those to help in this task.

[Billy no mates]

I dont have conclusive proof but the main areas of contention were the draw for the 4 groups which was carried out by Honbu months in advance was not carried out fairly and used profiles to match threatening foreigners against a pool of heavier opponents then their Japanese counterparts .
Sosai himself interfered in a most irregular fashion over the head of referees over ruling some decisions .
The accomodation training facilities and medical treatment foreign fighters recieved was far inferior to that of the host team .
Perhaps Sosai was under pressure from domestic sponsors which meant that rather than the tournament promoting global Kyokushinkai it became a means to affirm Japanese superiority for the domestic market .
Sosai did questionable things he also did remarkable things i can still celebrate the latter while acknowledging the former .