Sanchin kata first time..

**nzproud** · 08-29-2007, 05:06 AM

What did you think about the Sanchin kata first time you saw it? When I saw sanchin kata in my first week I thought the breathing technique was pretty funny and I laughed.. sharey our experience..

sonofkanga · 08-29-2007, 05:38 AM

My first sensei was very old fashioned,still is.Beginner's classes are separated,got to see Sanchin only after I was 8th kyu.By that time I was well versed in Dojo etiquette,and deep in to KK,so my reaction was:"Oh my god,I will never succeed in this style.Why the hell did I start it!? I must be a glutton for punishment!!!!!"
Have kept the last sentiment ever since

feels · 08-29-2007, 06:52 AM

A lot of people will disagree with me, but I don't believe in ibuki.

Johnnie · 08-29-2007, 11:42 AM

Ibuki helps alot after aerobic. especially when you are doing a 10 in a row fight and have about 30 seconds to recover in between.
Also, when i first saw sanchin, i must say i snickered. It was a totally different concept with the raspy throaty voice. I mean it was always KIA!!!

**Shokei Marcsui** · 08-29-2007, 03:14 PM

The first time I saw Sanchin kata was during my shotokan days as a young kid. It was a brown belt kata and during test times, the sensei would take a wooden rod and beat on the chest, arms, and legs of the person. One sempai actually picked up the person and threw him and he was expected to land in sanchin dachi and continue.

My favorite kata.

Johnnie · 08-29-2007, 03:40 PM

ahahaha shokei you made me laugh so hard with the trowing one. I can so imagine it though :P
Our sensei just had a shinai which is much softer on the body but did pretty much the same thing. THe best thing about sanchin was that it made you feel strong and resiliant. The whole body being tense while you perform ibuki is totally different to all the other katas.

seienchin · 08-29-2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feels

A lot of people will disagree with me, but I don't believe in ibuki.

The joy of the forum, where you can express your true opinion! Good on you, Feels..but I'm gonna argue

I think that there are lots of reasons ibuki is good

it strengthens your abs
It increases the pressure in your lungs, thereby making it theoretically easier for your body to absorb oxygen out of the air that is under pressure behind the ibuki
It strengthens the breating muscles (sports physiologists are now training athletes with resistance breathing devices, while we karateka have ours with us everywhere we go, like the rest of our kara-te weapons

I supect that others could add but I don't want you to feel berated.

IF I remember correctly, you are a singer, aren't you? I am not sure if ibuku would be good for the voice, but I do wonder if it gives you greater capacity to really open up your pharynx. I'd be interested in your opinion on that one.

Interesting to think about. Thanks for raising it

OH -and I was really impressed when I saw Sanchin kata, because I had been reading all about it in a non-kyokushin book, and it was portrayed as this magical kata that could pretty much teach you eveything you needed to know!

Johnnie · 08-29-2007, 04:01 PM

seienchin that clears up alot of things.
I have been doing sanchin for a long time and guess what, i also have a massive lung capacity. I always wondered why and now i know.
Thanks for the info.

**Shokei Marcsui** · 08-29-2007, 08:38 PM

Quote:

OH -and I was really impressed when I saw Sanchin kata, because I had been reading all about it in a non-kyokushin book, and it was portrayed as this magical kata that could pretty much teach you eveything you needed to know!

So seinchin do you still think it's the magical kata that could pretty much teach you everything you need to know?

Sanchin kata <3333

**supergroup7** · 08-29-2007, 09:58 PM

I was waiting for my husband to come and pick me up after class one evening on a very cold winter night. I could feel the cold wind driving through the protection of my coat, but I could not leave the area to go find shelter or I would miss my ride. I decided to do Sanchin kata because it is does not require alot of space to perform. I was thrilled to find that every part of my body stayed warm as I kept repeating the kata over and over again, including my toes. It was quite a testament to how this kata makes all of one's body work even though it doesn't appear to have much movement in it.

orisha66 · 08-29-2007, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seienchin

I think that there are lots of reasons ibuki is good

it strengthens your abs
It increases the pressure in your lungs, thereby making it theoretically easier for your body to absorb oxygen out of the air that is under pressure behind the ibuki
It strengthens the breating muscles (sports physiologists are now training athletes with resistance breathing devices, while we karateka have ours with us everywhere we go, like the rest of our kara-te weapons

IF I remember correctly, you are a singer, aren't you? I am not sure if ibuku would be good for the voice, but I do wonder if it gives you greater capacity to really open up your pharynx. I'd be interested in your opinion on that one.

OH -and I was really impressed when I saw Sanchin kata, because I had been reading all about it in a non-kyokushin book, and it was portrayed as this magical kata that could pretty much teach you eveything you needed to know!

Very good point Seienchin. you always hear the big singers of opera say "bring up from below" you do sing from the abba dabba, from what i understand singing from the throat damages the chords. breathing control helps when you cant make it any further. when you get hit, when you are hitting, just moving. all fighters and athletes use it in some form or fassion. It is a nesecity. but back to the question at hand;

I was all about Sanchin too. couldnt wait to learn it after i read about it and it's benefits.

seienchin · 08-31-2007, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shokei Marcsui

So seinchin do you still think it's the magical kata that could pretty much teach you everything you need to know?

Sanchin kata <3333

Nah - the magical kata that can teach you everything is ....

wait...
wait...
guess..

SEIENCHIN...

No, only kidding. Nothing in life can teach you everything you need to know. It's a vast patchwork that we all put together according to our own experiences and needs.

but it was a nice way to get a beginner in.

(FYI the book was about Uechi-ryu karate, (Author George E Mattson, Publisher Charles E tuttle company). I had no idea that kyokushin was so different. Now, when I look at that book, it is amazing to see what I couldn't see. A nice measure of the journey taken.)

I just love some of the stories that surround our art, so I will reproduce for you here one of the Mr Uechi Sanchin Kata stories from that book. (I am still very grateful to this funny little book for giving me some inkling of the importance of kata). Although I find the premise of sanchin letting me walk on teacups implausible, I guess that other styles might find the Mas Oyama and the bulls story implausible...so I try to keep an open mind.

" Mr Uechi preformed these feats not to show how strong he was but to prove to his students that the human body has not so many limitations as most people believe it to have. He wanted to stress the importance of sanchin by doing feats which he said required no other training except sanchin.

The first feat that he demonstrated was the stability test. He asked two of his largest and strongest students to pick up a large bamboo pole hanging over the door of his school and place it against his stomach. He then positioned himself in a sanchin stance and requested the two students to push as hard as thy could. They did so for a minute or two, but they were unable to budge Mr Uechi an inch. He told his students that they could all duplicate the feat if they perfected sanchin to a high degree.

After another workout, Mr Uechi instructed his wife to bring him six fragile china teacups. He arranged these six cups about twelve inches apart in a straight line. he then instructed his smallest student , who weighted about ninety points, to walk from one cup to another until he had walked on all six cups. The student placed his foot on the first cup, slowly putting his weight on it. Immediately, the cup shattered. Mar Uechi told him to try another cup - any cup along the line. The student broke the third cup in the row after trying to place his weight on it.

Mr Uechi instructed his wife to bring out two more cups to replace the broken ones. he then placed his right foot on the first cup, putting all his weight on it. he cup did not break. Then he walked in a sanchin position from cup to cup, not breaking a single cup. He told his students that they also could learn to do this if they studied sanchin enough".

blackshield · 08-31-2007, 09:21 PM

personally I disagree with the way the ibuki breathing is performed in kyokushin version of sanchin kata. The overly forced breathing can lead to medical problems associated with the val salva manuevre. In the okinawan styles and chinese styles that sanchin originates from the use of ibuki is more soft and only used to effect a form of dynamic tension and connectivity through the body. of course this is entirely my own perspective, and i am not saying i am correct

sonofkanga · 09-01-2007, 02:26 PM

Yes,I have seen variations in performance of IBUKI between different styles.I put it down to diferent teachers,not an inherent difference between styles.
interesting,
any thoughts on this subject,and the reasons for it?

seienchin · 09-23-2007, 01:25 PM

I think that ibuki varies a lot between styles and individuals because it is very difficult to teach someone to do it exactly the same as yourself. I can hold my arm up beside someone, and say, "hold it here". I can kick beside them, and they can copy. But they can't see what I am doing with my larynx when I do ibuki. I can describe it, they can hear me, but they can't see what I am doing. So I have observed that everyone's ibuki is a little different.

The point made by Blackshield about valsalva is correct too- some people have a low tolerance for the blood pressure changes caused by breathing out against resistance. So of necessity, their ibuki must be "softer".

Unfortunately, some people evaluate ibuki the same way they evaluate motor-bikes - the loudest must be the best! this isn't necessarily true.

In my dojo as a kyu grade, our ibuki was tested both during training and during gradings by being hit while we were doing sanchin. This was a test of the tension and connectivity through the body that blackshield refers to. It's not just a noise!

The stories of Mas Oyama riding the underground in Tokyo using only sanchin stance (without holding on to anything) to stay upright has always inspired me. I practise this on every type of transport I can. To date, I think I have "sanchinned" on the NY subway, the London underground, the Paris Metro, Tokyo Underground, Singapore and Hongkong MTRs...and I haven't been arrested yet. If you haven't tried it yet..give it a go!

Spirit · 09-23-2007, 01:42 PM

Well if you go by Sosai's statements it is Tensho (magical kata)
As for bunkai for Sanchin, not really sure their is one.
Sanchin was developed in China as a strengthening kata. Since this kata works both internally as well externally (much more than others do)...
Though their going to be some discussion on this, think about this.
Not all kata is illustrating or "story telling" at battle or incident in time gone by.

Satori · 09-23-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seienchin

The stories of Mas Oyama riding the underground in Tokyo using only sanchin stance (without holding on to anything) to stay upright has always inspired me. I practise this on every type of transport I can. To date, I think I have "sanchinned" on the NY subway, the London underground, the Paris Metro, Tokyo Underground, Singapore and Hongkong MTRs...and I haven't been arrested yet. If you haven't tried it yet..give it a go!

I've never heard those stories, but one day I instinctively shuffled my feet around on the train for better balance and noticed I ended up in sanchin. Since then I've experimented with various foot positions and angles, finding that facing the side (not front or back) of the train gives me greatest stability. Nevertheless, it's fun to try different angles and try to hold it - you certainly pick up on the finer points of the stance!

seienchin · 09-23-2007, 11:49 PM

I agree Satori - if it is a rough ride, I like to face the side. Deeply bending one knee or the other gives the stability you need to cope with the trains' acceleration/deceleration cycle.
I must confess tho - I haven't gone as far as ibuki on the trains!

bushido spirit · 09-24-2007, 07:18 PM

my 1st impretion with the kata was.....is the guy tryn to spit sumthn !!!! lool

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