Training both judo and kyokushin - Page 2

Spirit · 11-19-2007, 12:44 PM

paedde,
The only person you should be asking this question to is
"THE PERSON IN THE MIRROR"

Everyone else's opinions (including mine on this subject) is mute!!!!

Shit or get off the pot!!!!

Martin H · 11-19-2007, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJC

Nice vid Kris. This looks like something I would like to have a go at. I tried a lesson at ZDK Canterbury but I never saw their tournaments.

Not the same zendokai. There are several different styles with the same name.
The zendokai in the vid exist only in japan and .....Taiwan (or hongkong or some place like that -I dont remember). It is very small.
It is a daido juku offshot, and through Daido juku draw its lineage to kyokushin.

You probably tried a lesson of the australian zendokai -which does a bit of kickboxing side by side with their light touch point karate.
It originates in shotokan.

**Brad** · 11-19-2007, 11:50 PM

i think it's good thing as long as you rest enough.

Tettsui · 11-19-2007, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paedde

Yes I know that, but I was told that it is not usual to get a black belt under 8 years kyokushin here, and then I would be at least 27 and if I want fight in a MMA-Style Tournament, I think it's to late(

If you've decided on Kyokushin but also want to do MMA, you have to learn grappling. There's something called "body awareness" that is very unnatural and can only come from years of training in grappling. It's the sense of body balance and knowing when you are in trouble and your opponent is setting up a technique. I used to wrestle and I can submit most people 50 lbs heavier than me because they don't have this sense. I'm not necessarily good, it's just that grappling is very difficult.

Judo is good(I took it too) but If you really want to do serious MMA, either learn collegiate wrestle or jujitsu. Wrestling will give you a strong foundation and excellent conditioning. Jujitsu will give you great technique and submissions.

**SHIDOKANATLANTA** · 11-20-2007, 12:44 AM

you don't have to learn any one grappling art over another to learn prepare for mma. i have a judo background and had no problem adapting to no gi. whatever stlye you train in get a good foundation and understanding of the basics. it takes atleast a good year to get a new skillset and apply it. train with fighters of different backgrounds at this point and you will learn to adapt what you do to different fighters at the same time absorbing new things from them. form mma add some boxing and clinch/knee (i.e. muay thai) too.

GrandMaster_Dragon_00 · 11-20-2007, 05:05 AM

A lot of Kyokushin masters were black belts in Judo as well (Mas Oyama, Joko Ninomiya, Hidejuki Ashihara), so incorporating throwing/grappling into your striking repetoire is not unusual but rather expected in traditional Japanese thinking. I am wanting to take a Judo/BJJ combination class with Enshin or Kyokushin so no situation will catch me off guard in hand to hand.

You will never defeat a gun with your fists and feet and multiple attackers is always difficult, but knowledge of striking/throwing/grappling MA's is only a plus as long as you don't burn out and can stay focused and rested.

Ronin84 · 11-20-2007, 06:30 AM

Go for it man. I look at it as the big 3 and 3. Fighting on your feet and on the ground.

On your feet: Kyokushin(or respectable offshoot)- technique, traditional MA feel and structure, Boxing- Fills the holes KK leaves from not punching to the face, Muay Thai- brutally effective strikes from all ranges, best inb the clinch, pure fighting art but takes a heavy toll on the body.

On the Ground: Judo- Great takedowns with the gi, good control on the ground good finishes on the ground, Wrestling- Best takedowns all around, great for body control and positioning and getting back to your feet. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu- good takedowns, most technical groundwork and finishes. Gotta go gi and no-gi for the full package. (More Gracie oreanted schools focus on striking defense some schools with the newer mentality aim more at the BJJ tournaments)

If you train martial arts for the "art" train whatever you like and whatever you feel best suits you and betters you as an individual. If you're more on the "Martial" side of the house you need groundwork. You cannot with without at least learning enough to defend against it and get back to your own range(in a fight with someone who knows what they're doing).

someone can't force you to engage in a karate match or to kickbox with them, but if they close the distance they can make you grapple.

At least thats how it works in my head

**Paedde** · 11-20-2007, 08:00 AM

Have to agree with you Ronin84

I will concentrate on my standup first because I'm still quite new to martial arts. The Boxing is also helping my Kyokushin, It's a lot more easy to keep the distance with jabs.

Later I will try to find a Judo dojo (maybe with no-gi training sometimes?) and a lot more later I will maybe go for BJJ.

I train for the martial side of the art by the way =)

OSU

Ronin84 · 11-20-2007, 08:39 AM

Paedde, I'm slightly biased but if i were you I would skip the judo if I could and go stright for the BJJ. You will almost be guaranteed the oportunity to train with and without the gi and from my experience BJJ guys are usually really cool and are open to cross training. My Judo experience is pretty limited but most BJJ schools will mix it up with very open sparring and you can get the chance to engage your KK and boxing against a grappler.

Vale Tudo is very much alive and well in the BJJ community. I've seen my old instructor and other students, (myself includd) face off against big muscle heads from the gym upstairs who didnt think BJJ worked and Judo guys or wrestlers who came in with a bad attidute. I even had a shotokan guy challenge me once in college and we went at it in a gymnasium with a handful of spectators.

I'm not condoning going out and fighing but from my experience BJJ and even more MMA practicioners seclude themselves much less from interacting with other martial arts. When I trained under a Korean TangSooDo offshoot it always seemed like I was around other korean derivitaive stylists. I rarely saw japanese stylists at the tournaments and seminars I went to. Where I train now I train with some Shotokan Blackbelts and when their class is done at the gym a BJJ/Sub. Grappling class comes in. When the grapplers start showing up the Shotkan guys vanish. They want nothing to do with it.

**Paedde** · 11-20-2007, 08:53 AM

I don't want to offend anyone, but BJJ costs way to much money and I don't like the sort of people who are training it (BJJ is the best, nothing has a chance against it and so on)

So I decided to take judo, it's a lot cheaper, got nicer people (my opinion) and if I would compete in MMA somewhere in the far future, judo would help me to stay on my feet with the clinch work (if you can stay if someone is grabbing your gi, I think you can without a gi too)

But it's just my opinion, again, I don't want to offend anyone and respect BJJ, but I don't want to got for it, yet

Ronin84 · 11-20-2007, 09:42 AM

Sounds like you ran into some bad guys. Whatever works for you. I trained in a smaller town so it was pretty cheap for me but there are a lot of school that are very expensive in some locations.

vapor · 11-20-2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paedde

I don't want to offend anyone, but BJJ costs way to much money and I don't like the sort of people who are training it (BJJ is the best, nothing has a chance against it and so on)

So I decided to take judo, it's a lot cheaper, got nicer people (my opinion) and if I would compete in MMA somewhere in the far future, judo would help me to stay on my feet with the clinch work (if you can stay if someone is grabbing your gi, I think you can without a gi too)

But it's just my opinion, again, I don't want to offend anyone and respect BJJ, but I don't want to got for it, yet

I think that you hit on two valid points.
-cost (not all of us have money trees growing in our backyards!)

- Personalities (both of the sensei, and the other students. No need to get to a point where you can't wait to find an excuse to NOT go to class, because you don't get along, or do not like the atmosphere of the environment)

Neither of those things are a jab at BJJ...it is simply true for the situation that you are in. You could replace the word BJJ with TKD for someone else...and it could be the same situation for them...

vapor

GrandMaster_Dragon_00 · 06-17-2008, 08:21 PM

Sorry to revive a dead thread, it's a little slow on this site anyways so maybe no one will notice.

I advise taking Bjj & Judo simultaneously if at all possible. I live in Texas and there are a few dojos that do this and there are more across the US as well. Reason being is, Judo will help you stay on your feet while your opponent is on the ground and vulnerable, but isn't nearly as effective as Bjj on the ground. While Bjj owns on the ground, but doesn't help you stay on your feet which is crucial against multiple attackers.

I advocate taking Kyokushin/Enshin, achieving black belt status then taking Bjj/Judo simultaneously if you are able to find a dojo to do so. Except for the lack of face punching in Kyokushin/Enshin kumite, this will give you complete mastery of any encounter you face. To make up for this lack of experience, I recommend taking Boxing for a period of time to acclimate oneself to what face punching is like, then fusing this with your Kyokushin/Enshin technique. I got the idea to take boxing from someone off this site and I think it is the perfect solution to filling the gaps in Karate.

Ne1 agree or disagree with my assessment?

Dent · 06-17-2008, 09:15 PM

Osu!

I tend to disagree with taking Judo at all anymore. I used to love Judo, but the shift away from the kind of Judo that was for the players to Judo for spectators has cut out a chunk of what made it so good.

If you're looking for a throwing art that blends best with BJJ, I'd advocate Sambo. With the lack of chokes more than made up for by the BJJ, the additional leg locks are ideal for those facing strikers as part of their training.

Osu!

GrandMaster_Dragon_00 · 06-17-2008, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

I tend to disagree with taking Judo at all anymore. I used to love Judo, but the shift away from the kind of Judo that was for the players to Judo for spectators has cut out a chunk of what made it so good.

If you're looking for a throwing art that blends best with BJJ, I'd advocate Sambo. With the lack of chokes more than made up for by the BJJ, the additional leg locks are ideal for those facing strikers as part of their training.

Osu!

Sambo sounds interesting, but I have never seen that offered with Bjj simultaneously unfortunately. That would also be tougher on a lot of folks to learn 3 MA disciplines individually.

Enshin (the MA I first want to take) is Kyokushin & Judo combined, so further immersing myself in Judo interests me to complete the circle if you will.

To each his own, whatever is available in your area or whatever you are willing to move to enroll in is the top priority.

shinobijesus · 06-19-2008, 03:45 AM

didnt even notice i was reading a dead thread til it was pointed out.

anyway i just want to throw in my 2 cents on Judo. well i dont want to cause i dont want to argue but im obligated to since i started in Judo.

Judo is quite possibly the most underrated martial art alive. you can find it almost anywhere, its prices are most often very affordable, and depending on the teacher you can be just as good on the ground as a bjj guy.

now before the hardcore bjj guys throw a fit, yes my first sensei had a deep focus on newaza and yes we did "roll" with bjj guys. sometimes they won, sometimes we won. just my experience though. ive never trained Judo at another dojo, in fact at all in years, so ive never technically known a Judo dojo that doesnt train sufficiently in newaza. however i hear about them all the time.

that seems like a moot point to me though. if you know how and where to hit, it seems to me that even without grappling skills being able to put an opponent on the ground at will would still spell the end of that fight for him. Bruce Lee did have a section in Tao of Jeet Kune Do called "the art of kicking a man while hes down".....

**Paedde** · 06-19-2008, 07:35 AM

I started BJJ a month ago and I really like it. There is no disrespect, we have a judo brown belt who is teaching tachiwaza so we can get the best of both world. I think most BJJ or Judo people have realized that they can just learn from each other instead of arguing who is better.

Musha · 06-19-2008, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paedde

I started BJJ a month ago and I really like it. There is no disrespect, we have a judo brown belt who is teaching tachiwaza so we can get the best of both world. I think most BJJ or Judo people have realized that they can just learn from each other instead of arguing who is better.

Agree. Most top BJJ players have Judo background and they understand the need of both arts. In Nogi world, we see submission grappling, a married between wrestling and nogi BJJ. The younger generation of Judo and BJJ player is more open to the idea of cross train so I think more school will offer both arts in the future.

seienchin · 06-19-2008, 01:25 PM

I actually think judo is a good fit with kyokushin, because there is very little that you learn for judo that you need to "forget" when fighting kyokushin. The throws just don't come naturally during kumite, but the footsweeps sure do.

I have taken more people down with ashi-barai perfected during judo drills than with any other single technique. it just adds some fun and spice, and makes people approach you with a bit of caution.

I also really valued the drilling in proper break-falling, and approached my self-defence work with much greater confidence as a result.

To my money, if you are keen to branch out into something that has throws and sweeps, judo is a good choice. I take Dent's point about how it has changed, but at the beginning levels, I still think there is much for the kyokushin practitioner to learn.

**SHIDOKANATLANTA** · 06-20-2008, 02:19 AM

it all depends on who you learn judo from. i'm a judoka (shodan) and i've had good training for newaza (grappling). i've also trained with bjj guys, sambo players, etc. with no gi, it's submission wrestling (wrestling, judo, sambo, etc.). i've modified my judo by training with other grappling styles so that i could be comfortable from standing to ground for gi and no gi. my judo base has helped me in shidokan tournaments because the first part of the fight is bareknuckle with throws. in the kickboxing rounds you can still throw (like sanshou). then in the last phase the fingerless gloves (for the throws, i use over and under hooks, wrist control, and body locks to use greco/judo throws). on the ground it's newaza.

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