rise & fall of kyokushin

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by seienchin

I don't train to fight. I train so I will have the strength of will to walk away from a fight. And if we all do that, including the MMA guys...then your scenario will never arise.

I believe this discussion is now starting to look like MMA VS Kyokushin or Karate who better?

Thy are both Martial Arts yet they are very different no matter how you show comparisons or how this fighter from this style does this now in MMA etc...

If a Kyokushin fighter goes to K-1 or UFC etc it is exactly the same if a Kyokushin fighter went to Judo, he/she has changed his style or better their discipline.

I think it would be best for all if we look at this matter in a broader sense similar to changing just disciplines.

Karate has its principals views (ideologies, philosophical doctrines) that also happen to engage in Kumite, yet it is a small part of Karate though it gets the greatest attention.

MMA, K-1 etc, has a specific challenge, that is to compete ( great for those who take that challenge and for those who watch it), yet no philosophical doctrines to really speak of...

So Let us agree to disagree on this one and move on .... what do you say???

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by meguro

It seems many wish to view violent real life encounters as an opportunity to duel. I believe that attitude will get you killed. A career crimnial who wishes to take your property and possibly your life, is not looking for a chance to prove his toughness. Do criminals have the money, leisure time or discipline for martial arts training? I doubt it. Most likely they will use stealth, larger numbers, and weapons to make their living. The fair fight and desired face-off exist only in testosterone fueled fantasy, or of course a ring. Show me someone who habitually gets into unarmed street fights and I'll show you someone with poor decision making skills or criminal tendencies. The additional training or refocus on training really has no purpose other than fighting someone else's game, namely MMA.

I am not denying MMA's popularity, nor the fact that competitors trained only in Kyokushin are at a disadvantage under mixed martial arts competition rules. So what? Kyokushin focusing solely on MMA would be like Italian car manufacturer, Ferrarri, scrapping its entire line-up to make 4x4's and drift cars because WRC and drifting are getting more air-time on ESPN.

Besides, how do you propose Kyokushin undertake this groundshifting change? How do you retrofit all the yudansha and kyu grades with boxing, grappling, clinching skills? Where would the thousands of new outside instructors come from? (It will take a generation or two before home-grown Kyokushin MMA instructors can be groomed.) A better strategy is for interested parties to undertake the cross-training on their own or at the Ichigeki Plaza.

Ok, you're making stuff i didn't say. I don't advise anyone to look out for street fights. I only told you i've been into many in the past and yes there is still a place here for one on one situations. I don't know about your country, but not everyone here has acess to fire guns. Of course some of them do, but we still have a thing here called pride (not for everyone though of course). Fact is where i live many tough scores to settle are resolved by one on one fights. Maybe in your country, most people pick a gun to resolve such troubles.

We still have many gang/neighborhood street fights with no weapons and sometimes it starts because of gym rivalries. Of course sometimes though, there's business involved and weapons too. Sadly but true. There are also more Boxing, Kickboxing and Ju-jutsu intructors getting involved in prostitution, debt collecting, steroids, drugs and weapons traffic too (but mostly in the troubled areas not so much in the surroundings).

Where i live if someone in the neighborhood knows you're a Boxer/Kickboxer or Karateka don't be surprised if you're challenged for a street fight (one on one). It happens a lot here. You're on your own if you take the challenge of course. And if you beat the guy, you still have to be carefull not harm him pretty much in case he's part of a big gang. When i was much younger and didn't train martial arts i didn't care much if i hurt somebody and of course sometimes i would suffer the consequences like having 15 guys (some of them older than me) on my tail to beat the crap out of me for revenge. So you need to have extra caution if you live in a rough place like i did for many years.

Now there are of course assaults here as well and in those situation weapons are surely involved (mostly pistols and shot guns here). But his happens mostly in jewlery stores, cofee shops, gasoline stations, assaults and assassination cases (mostly because of illegal business or romance affairs). There's no point there obvioulsy at risking your own life just for a couple of changes.


Second of all, i didn't say Kyokushin Karate's main priority should be MMA competition but rather realistic self defense which surrounds MMA training plus extra technique. Standard, K-1 and MMA competition are only an option which i think is all good for the development of Kyokushin and it requires special training classes solely for that purpose. So your example doesn't fit here because i'm talking about a single car that works well in all domains and you're talking about different car models.

By the way, it seems you still didn't get one of my points here. I'm not so concerned about popularity. I'm ok with it of course (to spread the word about Kyokushin) and i enjoy watching Filho and Feitosa in K-1 but the priority to me is self defense. I thought i made that clear.

Then you asked me how is that possible. Where would we find these instructors? Well first of all the model which i suggest is the Ishigeki one. It has to be the current standard instructor who needs as well to get in touch with these techniques (clinching, grappling, facial striking, weapons...) in order to teach them in the dojo. Remeber that at this point, many Kyokushin students feel the need to cross train (which implies going to other dojos/gyms as well) because they don't find everything they look out for in a sing fighting system, in this case, Kyokushin Karate. But if there were more Ishigeki academies all over the world then they would have the chance to master all these techniques in one single place that is your Kyokushin dojo/ Ishigeki Academy.

This would of course require a big financial effort and a new organisation model for the IKO-1 but i think it would be a great move. Notice that i'm not saying Kyokushin competition should be exclusively MMA type orientated but instead cover the current and K-1 model of competition rules as well.


Osu!

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by Spirit

I believe this discussion is now starting to look like MMA VS Kyokushin or Karate who better?

Thy are both Martial Arts yet they are very different no matter how you show comparisons or how this fighter from this style does this now in MMA etc...

If a Kyokushin fighter goes to K-1 or UFC etc it is exactly the same if a Kyokushin fighter went to Judo, he/she has changed his style or better their discipline.

I think it would be best for all if we look at this matter in a broader sense similar to changing just disciplines.

Karate has its principals views (ideologies, philosophical doctrines) that also happen to engage in Kumite, yet it is a small part of Karate though it gets the greatest attention.

MMA, K-1 etc, has a specific challenge, that is to compete ( great for those who take that challenge and for those who watch it), yet no philosophical doctrines to really speak of...

So Let us agree to disagree on this one and move on .... what do you say???

It's not an issue about Kyokushin vs MMA but instead Kyokushin dojos incorporating K-1/MMA plus intensifying self defense training and spread the Ishigeki project worldwide.

But i guess some people here don't like the idea too much. So i agree with you. Lets agree to disagree lol. I think we all made our points here.

[meguro]

Sonik, we do have different views. It makes the world and this forum an interesting place.

Note that my views were in response to the article and its claim that Kyokushin is on the decline. I don't think Kyokushin is on the decline.

I live in Japan at the moment. Guns are next to impossible to obtain. Crime is non-existant, at least in comparison to where you live. It seems to me that the Japanese sense of budo is more internal compared to the rest of the world, where it is something to be exercised on the street. International crime statistics might shed a light on this discrepancy.

At some point, I'll be moving to a far more dangerous country than Japan, the US. I doubt my view on karate and self-defense will change because I think really violent criminal behaviour doesn't change. Note, when I say that an unarmed man/woman is at a disadvantage, I do not mean that arming him/her makes the situation better. Discretion, as they say, is the better part of valor.

BTW, I do think it would be nice to have better boxing and grappling skills. I just don't feel it's necessary to get these at a Kyokushin dojo (Ichigeki, OK). It's like someone insisting I have a slice of delicious cake when a cup of coffee would be just fine.

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by meguro

Sonik, we do have different views. It makes the world and this forum an interesting place.

Note that my views were in response to the article and its claim that Kyokushin is on the decline. I don't think Kyokushin is on the decline.

I live in Japan at the moment. Guns are next to impossible to obtain. Crime is non-existant, at least in comparison to where you live. It seems to me that the Japanese sense of budo is more internal compared to the rest of the world, where it is something to be exercised on the street. International crime statistics might shed a light on this discrepancy.

At some point, I'll be moving to a far more dangerous country than Japan, the US. I doubt my view on karate and self-defense will change because I think really violent criminal behaviour doesn't change. Note, when I say that an unarmed man/woman is at a disadvantage, I do not mean that arming him/her makes the situation better. Discretion, as they say, is the better part of valor.

BTW, I do think it would be nice to have better boxing and grappling skills. I just don't feel it's necessary to get these at a Kyokushin dojo (Ichigeki, OK). It's like someone insisting I have a slice of delicious cake when a cup of coffee would be just fine.

Ok sorry if i misunderstood you there. I thought that comment was directed at me.

Regarding you last comment, well i'm glad you like the Ishigeki idea. I'm not suggesting anything much different form that. I was just saying you should have the several options/classes in a single academy/dojo although i self defense for street fighting should be more stressed even in standard Kyokushin classes. I'm not suggesting every average stundet should be a newaza expert or professional Kickboxer because the fact is most people don't have enough time to train everything. So fo those people they should learn the essential elements of Kyokushin philosophy/mentality and Kyokushin self defense (which could be 70% based on striking and 30%) which by the way are connected in my perspective. They share a common domain.

For those who whish to pursuit standard IKO, K-1, MMA competition, that is, to become professionals in that area, there should be separate classes just like you have in the Ishigeki Plaza.

But like i said for this to happen, it is required a profound change in the current organisation model of IKO-1. It's a dream perhaps but i think i'm not alone on this. There are more Kyokushin students who whish to see the Ishigeki project spreading worldwide.


Osu!

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by meguro

At some point, I'll be moving to a far more dangerous country than Japan, the US.

Ahh violence is not bound by boarders of countries.
It comes from one place and one place only ... MAN

And your comment as I read it is some what insulting to this Great Nation.
Perhaps you may wish to reconsider coming here in the first place?

[meguro]

Originally Posted by Spirit

And your comment as I read it is some what insulting to this Great Nation.
Perhaps you may wish to reconsider coming here in the first place?

Are you misreading my posts again, Spirit? There was no insult intended. I'm pretty sure there are some great things about the US. Crime statistics, sorry to say, ain't what makes it great.

For all its virtues, and despite its flaws, the US is great to me because it's home. I appreciate your expressed concern for my safety, but I'll be fine.

[DKKC]

Another site dedicated to style bashing and how great is my style!

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by DKKC

Another site dedicated to style bashing and how great is my style!

Nope. Not this site. People may point here what they thing is lacking in a certain style but that's not bashing, it's a civilized conversation. Now if you can't take a bad critic i understand that. I can but i think everybody should too. Kyokushin students have to be humble and accept their flaws and errors. The important thing is to learn from experience and never think we already know everything we need. There's always something new to learn, therefore we say, life is constant learning process. It only ends when death arises.



Osu!

[DKKC]

Originally Posted by Sonik

Nope. Not this site. People may point here what they thing is lacking in a certain style but that's not bashing, it's a civilized conversation. Now if you can't take a bad critic i understand that. I can but i think everybody should too. Kyokushin students have to be humble and accept their flaws and errors. The important thing is to learn from experience and never think we already know everything we need. There's always something new to learn, therefore we say, life is constant learning process. It only ends when death arises.



Osu!

I looked at other articles on that site! Not just the one this thread is dedicated to. The way they are written, the wording. it's not about critiquing, it is about bashing. I haven't seen a website dedicated to Kyokushin victories against other styles. I have seen students of kyokushin winning against students of other styles, but never entire articles dedicated to the event describing how fantastic Kyokushin is and how it superior it is compared to style x, y or z. That's what this site has and, in my book, that is bashing!

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by DKKC

I looked at other articles on that site! Not just the one this thread is dedicated to. The way they are written, the wording. it's not about critiquing, it is about bashing. I haven't seen a website dedicated to Kyokushin victories against other styles. I have seen students of kyokushin winning against students of other styles, but never entire articles dedicated to the event describing how fantastic Kyokushin is and how it superior it is compared to style x, y or z. That's what this site has and, in my book, that is bashing!

Wait, that site or this site?

Ok (assuming you're referring to this site) maybe i'm missing some posts here. I don't spend all my time here reading every posts but i have to tell you i've never read anything like that. I myself don't like to think in those terms (bashing). However, i find it's ok to criticize a fighting style. I mean if i don't like a certain fighting style for some reason i may point on this forum why i don't like it. Or maybe i like some things about it and others not so much. But that's not bashing last time i checked my dictionary. it's criticizing. If someone's insulting the people who practice a certain style then that's what i call bashing.

With that said, i feel like i have to ask you to show me some evidence of what you're stating.


You're right though about thinking how dumb it is to write articles where people descrive their fighting style as the best. That's very narcisistic. I don't aprove that kind of thinking. People should just worry about improving their skills, train hard and show what they're made of. I always tell my kohai to keep a low profile. In fact, i really dislike when people feel like they have to show of. It's really annoying but i guess sometimes we have to be really tolerant and patient.



Osu!

[sokaiya]

Originally Posted by Sonik

Wait, that site or this site?

Ok (assuming you're referring to this site) maybe i'm missing some posts here. I don't spend all my time here reading every posts but i have to tell you i've never read anything like that. I myself don't like to think in those terms (bashing). However, i find it's ok to criticize a fighting style. I mean if i don't like a certain fighting style for some reason i may point on this forum why i don't like it. Or maybe i like some things about it and others not so much. But that's not bashing last time i checked my dictionary. it's criticizing. If someone's insulting the people who practice a certain style then that's what i call bashing.

With that said, i feel like i have to ask you to show me some evidence of what you're stating.


You're right though about thinking how dumb it is to write articles where people descrive their fighting style as the best. That's very narcisistic. I don't aprove that kind of thinking. People should just worry about improving their skills, train hard and show what they're made of. I always tell my kohai to keep a low profile. In fact, i really dislike when people feel like they have to show of. It's really annoying but i guess sometimes we have to be really tolerant and patient.



Osu!

He's not writing about this site. He's writing about the site in which 'Rise and Fall of Kyokushin' came from.

[DKKC]

Thanks Sokaiya - I was indeed talking about the site the article was coming from.

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by DKKC

Thanks Sokaiya - I was indeed talking about the site the article was coming from.

Lol ok then. Sorry for my english then. I wasn't sure because you referred as "this site" and not "that site". You got me a bit confused there but i guess it didn't make much sense anyway. So forget what i said. Lol



Osu!

[Davidkyokushinstudent]

Interesting reading. I enjoyed reading up on the early rivalry of kyokushin & Muay Thai. I am excited to learn that the streetfighter charachters Ryu & Sagat were actually created based directly on this rivalry! Ryu was always my favourite character!
As for kyokushin reaching its peak and fading away, i believe that if its respective groups stay true to the essence of the teachings of kyokushin, this could never happen. Isnt it because of the fragmentation of kyokushin that it is so wide spread now? Whatever the offshoot or modification, it is all kyokushin afterall.
With regard to the weakness of defending against head strikes, i can see how this can happen. It is up to the karateka to remember that other styles do target the head with punches in kumite, and to be prepared for this attack. I think it is more a complacency than a weakness. You do get used to not having to defend against strikes to the face in kyokushin kumite. We do get taught the defences for these attacks, so it is innacurate to call this a flaw in the style...

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by DKKC

Another site dedicated to style bashing and how great is my style!

Yes the "crane" site founder is indeed dedicated to promoting chinese arts at the expense of all others.
He does give some credit to muay thai (after muay thai guys defeating sanda guys repetedly), but as long he can, he will promote any chinese style over all others.
Now liking your style is not a issue, we all do that. But that art takes partiality and one-eyed viewing to a high level indeed!

You simply cannot take any information on it as facts, and have to ask yourself what details has ("has" not: "may have") been casually forgotten or "modified" to make them suite the authors views better. Or what unsubstantiated stories/legends are presented as fact, when it suits him.

[Sonik]

The author of that site decided that one challenge or two is enough to say Sanda is now superior to Kyokushin/Daido Karate. Fact is they had some of their best fighters against amateur Daido practissants and the Kyokushin guys who took a shot there were not used at all to face punches and throws. If you put any of those chinese fighters against Glaube Feitosa and Francisco Filho, things would be different.

Sanda is by the way is mixture of Kickboxing/Muay Thai with some Kenpo styles. It's not really a 100% chinese product.

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by meguro

The author does some nice research on the history of Kyokushin, but the premise of the article, that Kyokushin has declined and is a cautionary tale for Kung Fu is utter bull***t. Unlike Kung Fu, Kyokushin has been evolving even when Sosai was still alive. The tournament system is the reason for that. It's no surprise that Kyokushin continues to evolve.

While it's true face punching and grappling do not figure centrally, or even peripherally in our training, I point out that these are merely skill sets for a different &qu