Uk's Youngest 3rd Dan

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

I think we all know that because not all people are equal, not all ranks are equal.

What I'm worried about is gross rank inflation. Part of the reason Kyokushin and the other Knockdown styles are well respected is because of the difficulty associated with earning the grade.

I wonder whether this young man faced the same grading as someone a decade older?

Osu!

This style is not Kyokushin and over a decade ago I was a mid grade martial artist in three styles and was offered a BB in another style after 6 months or so of training so I don't see what difference a decade would have made.

[Dent]

Osu!

Grade inflation hurts us all, TMD.

If McDojo A starts lowering the age for grades, and McDojo B starts reducing the time in grade, then it's only a matter of time before McDojo C does both. Soon enough we have five-year-old black belts who need velcro to tie their belts, and mothers to tie their shoes.

Now, in the same town, Real Dojo is trying to offer real Karate, with real discipline, and real grades that members really have to work for. They now not only have to overcome the natural human behavior of prospective students taking the path of least resistance, but also the public perception that Karate is either a babysitting service or an expensive joke.

Osu!

[yann]

The aforementioned youngster, though performing techniques adequately to gain sandan in his style, would not get sandan in the kyokushin that i am familiar with.
(imho)
Despite my age misgivings, little things like his fists not being tightly clenched when he raised his arms etc.. dan means man level-but you can still be a dan level while junior'
surely jeff whybrow had this problem yrs ago........
nahhh, i've looked at it again, he's a kyokushin 1st dan.
(my opinion, not meant to offend)
yann

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by Dent

Grade inflation hurts us all, TMD.

If McDojo A starts lowering the age for grades, and McDojo B starts reducing the time in grade, then it's only a matter of time before McDojo C does both. Soon enough we have five-year-old black belts who need velcro to tie their belts, and mothers to tie their shoes.

Now, in the same town, Real Dojo is trying to offer real Karate, with real discipline, and real grades that members really have to work for. They now not only have to overcome the natural human behavior of prospective students taking the path of least resistance, but also the public perception that Karate is either a babysitting service or an expensive joke.

but thats just it! it DOESNT affect us at all let alone hurt us....

mcdojos already hand out belts like candy, some happen to only hand them out to those who can pay for them. its already happening. its happened to TKD for years now, among other styles.

things are just going to keep going on like they do. Real Dojo is going to be the best place to train and the people who dont know that probably dont belong there anyway. so the enrollment will stay low and Real Dojo will be poor but we dont do it for the money. and we dont do it JUST for the color of our belt so the people that actually WANT to pay for a rank or get to BB in 3 months doesnt belong at Real Dojo either.

everyone will end up where theyre meant to end up.

[tmd]

Originally Posted by yann

nahhh, i've looked at it again, he's a kyokushin 1st dan.

Where'd you get that from Yann the style is Tsuyoi-Ryu, when it was conceived years back it had an element of Kyokushin but is mostly a Shotokan style with some JJ added to make it more of an updated system.

Just listened to the Vid again and indeed the kids been training for 10 years so the time lines nearly right however the rule over under 18's not being able to grade to black was only changed 128 months ago according to the vid so he's gone form 1st Kyu to 3rd Dan pretty quickly.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

but thats just it! it DOESNT affect us at all let alone hurt us....

mcdojos already hand out belts like candy, some happen to only hand them out to those who can pay for them. its already happening. its happened to TKD for years now, among other styles.

things are just going to keep going on like they do. Real Dojo is going to be the best place to train and the people who dont know that probably dont belong there anyway. so the enrollment will stay low and Real Dojo will be poor but we dont do it for the money. and we dont do it JUST for the color of our belt so the people that actually WANT to pay for a rank or get to BB in 3 months doesnt belong at Real Dojo either.

everyone will end up where theyre meant to end up.

I almost wish I had your sense of fatalism, ShinobiJesus, but I see it differently. The vast majority of people wouldn't know the difference between one school and another, but when they're tripping over miniature BB left and right, they think that this is the accepted standard.

The area I'm now in is all about the McDojo, and they are all identified as Karate, no matter the national origin. (Or lucky packet it was pulled from...)

With all the McDojo, the Real Dojo will be squeezed out, not least due to the cost of running a Dojo. Rent costs money. Electricity costs money. Transport to and from training costs money. Affiliation and other organization fees cost money.

Real Dojo may move to training in the park, or at a private residence. How does this enable the potential student with the right attitude to find it? Who will carry the torch for the next generation?

I know we're getting off topic a bit here, but I think that this is the big underlying question. Why not give out the grades for a song? Why should we have standards? If we answer those questions, we may also have answered their opposites.

Osu!

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

I know we're getting off topic a bit here, but I think that this is the big underlying question. Why not give out the grades for a song? Why should we have standards? If we answer those questions, we may also have answered their opposites.

Osu!

Why are you off topic my question from the start was --- Just found this interesting...Discuss... ---The very reason for posting was the can of worms such a grade in such a young guy opens.

I know I dissed you Dent for saying this would not have happened 10 years ago but 20 years ago...

I know not all of you will know or be able to comprehend living legend to me that is Jeff Wybrow - the guy was running his own dojo at 16 under the direct guidance of Hanshi Arneil - as a 1st Kyu because it was the highest grade he could reach under Kyokushin rules of the time - did it stop him from continuing his Kyokushin journey, No; did he run a great dojo - ask Hasbeen - I think his answer is a resounding yes; does he have a world wide reputation as a true Martial Artists, yes; was he a Clicker champion, yes, a knockdown champion, yes, a Kata champion, yes! Did he eventually get to third Dan, yes and then some - I am not looking to throw stones as I still think that 10 years of commitment from a 16 year old is fantastic but could this kid, as good as he is hold a candle to the likes of Jeff Wybrow IMO - NO.

Another slant - from 3rd Dan up the grades are honorary in all arts right? So what is his motivation to continue training if for his whole life it's been about the next belt? I just hope this great but early high doesn't end his journey too soon.

[Dent]

Osu!

Shihan Jeff Whybrow is known to many of us here, I am sure, and I'm equally sure he is an exception to almost any Karate rule. Held to his standard, not many would make the same grades, but your argument is totally valid.

I think many groups still require a physical test above Sandan. Not so easy for the older members, but I like the idea of an actual test.

Osu!

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by Dent

I almost wish I had your sense of fatalism, ShinobiJesus, but I see it differently. The vast majority of people wouldn't know the difference between one school and another, but when they're tripping over miniature BB left and right, they think that this is the accepted standard.

isnt it though? the standard. not for our styles or organizations but for others it is. the differences in styles and organizations are so vast we cant hold one to the same standards as another.

btw, i actually dont think its the standard of anything. youre kind of using a hyperbole there but its cool.

Originally Posted by Dent

With all the McDojo, the Real Dojo will be squeezed out, not least due to the cost of running a Dojo. Rent costs money. Electricity costs money. Transport to and from training costs money. Affiliation and other organization fees cost money.

this is always a risk a Real Dojo takes. its harsh but its what happens when you want to open a dojo. a lot of business elements come into play. then Real Dojo can either give up and close shop or walk a fine line and "play the game" just a little. i admit ive seen very few places make this work.

Originally Posted by Dent

Real Dojo may move to training in the park, or at a private residence. How does this enable the potential student with the right attitude to find it? Who will carry the torch for the next generation?
.

the ones who are truly dedicated will find the right place and carry the torch. in TRKs thread about different styles i mention a dojo i thought i was going to be at. it was in a refurbished barn in the woods on the property of the guy that owned it behind his house. i drove around for an hour and a half just to find it.

Originally Posted by Dent

I know we're getting off topic a bit here, but I think that this is the big underlying question. Why not give out the grades for a song? Why should we have standards? If we answer those questions, we may also have answered their opposites.

we have to have standards, they are a starting point and let you know whats ahead. like a syllabus. however that doesnt mean we need to justify a zero tolerance policy to uphold them. zero tolerance doesnt work because its not applicable to the real world.

heres a flawed example just cause its running through my mind at the moment - the speed limit. the speed limit means everyone cant go faster than that right? but its just a sign. it doesnt actually affect the vehicle you are travelling in. take cops out of the equation and people would use it as a guideline and travelling speeds would vary. some people are better at driving fast and can go faster while some people realize the wisdom in not rushing and abide by it or go slower. true there would be, and are today, people who suck at driving and go faster than they should. thats their own mistake.

i realize youre worried about how the martial arts community is represented but theres just not much you can do about stories like this kids. the only thing we can do is keep doing our best for ourselves and hope we serve as examples to those in our dojos to keep the dojo reputation strong. notice how theres usually die-hards that show up religiously while over time everyone else is transient? core students are meant to be.

[tmd]

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

The only thing we can do is keep doing our best for ourselves and hope we serve as examples to those in our dojos to keep the dojo reputation strong. notice how theres usually die-hards that show up religiously while over time everyone else is transient? core students are meant to be.

Core strength is the root of all good Martial Artists and it seems the Dojo is no exception - a great point SJ.

With regards to the speed limit analogy this works for me - but we have to add in the majority of drivers now admit to speeding, here I think are the main reasons we can draw on for this debate: 1) The speed limits were set along time ago when cars brakes etc were not so go so there is an expectation that the modern vehicle can cope with the greater speed, what they forget is the test is still the same so why do they feel they are better drivers than those in the past? - add to that the 10 fold increase in cars on the road and the speed limits should be coming down especially in town! 2) The risk of getting caught is slim and the fine etc minimal so the reward of being early for everything is great so speeding becomes the norm, as an excepted practice it then becomes redefines the Status Quo and you get groups lobying for the raising of the speed limit - the point is if we lower standards it's the devils work to try and raise them again, what we have to look at is is it necessary to accept a lowering of the standards to keep the numbers right to keep the doors open? I will leave that to the individual Sensei's conscience.

[yann]

Hi tmd, sorry, i meant he looked like a kk shodan 9imho) while doing his techniques-and yes, I know it's not kk, I spotted the slight differences; hehehhe

osu! yann

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

i realize youre worried about how the martial arts community is represented but theres just not much you can do about stories like this kids. the only thing we can do is keep doing our best for ourselves and hope we serve as examples to those in our dojos to keep the dojo reputation strong. notice how theres usually die-hards that show up religiously while over time everyone else is transient? core students are meant to be.

I think that sums it up fairly nicely, ShinobiJesus. Work harder at improving our own standard; make the public more aware of an alternative option to the McDojo; and try to find like-minded people to grow the concept of Karate as more than a paycheck.

Osu!

[meguro]

I've been following this thread with some interest and was wondering what, besides the perception that a 16 year old sandan is a joke, is the big difference between McDojo and Real Dojo if there are no objective tests? I will not go into techical skills and demonstrations of strength and agility, because such measures are often style/school dependent. What I'm asking is, what if fake "krotty" produced the same positive effects on character, discipline, health, self-esteem, etc. that real karate is supposed to engender?

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by tmd

1) The speed limits were set along time ago when cars brakes etc were not so go so there is an expectation that the modern vehicle can cope with the greater speed, what they forget is the test is still the same so why do they feel they are better drivers than those in the past? - add to that the 10 fold increase in cars on the road and the speed limits should be coming down especially in town! 2) The risk of getting caught is slim and the fine etc minimal so the reward of being early for everything is great so speeding becomes the norm, as an excepted practice it then becomes redefines the Status Quo and you get groups lobying for the raising of the speed limit - the point is if we lower standards it's the devils work to try and raise them again, what we have to look at is is it necessary to accept a lowering of the standards to keep the numbers right to keep the doors open? I will leave that to the individual Sensei's conscience.

interesting point.

Originally Posted by Dent

I think that sums it up fairly nicely, ShinobiJesus. Work harder at improving our own standard; make the public more aware of an alternative option to the McDojo; and try to find like-minded people to grow the concept of Karate as more than a paycheck.

some karateka might be more worried than myself, but i think that old styles are still around for a reason. i believe that reason is the reputation of strength that goes along with the surviving old styles, a reputation that is the culmination of the reputation of all the dojos from the style.

i also have faith that in another century or two that Kyokushin will be one of the old styles thats still around due to its reputation that we are building for it now. and lets not forget the contribution to its reputation by passionate karateka who are fiercly outspoken about keeping strict standards for rank which in turn helps keep the Kyokushin reputation strong.

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by meguro

I've been following this thread with some interest and was wondering what, besides the perception that a 16 year old sandan is a joke, is the big difference between McDojo and Real Dojo if there are no objective tests? I will not go into techical skills and demonstrations of strength and agility, because such measures are often style/school dependent. What I'm asking is, what if fake "krotty" produced the same positive effects on character, discipline, health, self-esteem, etc. that real karate is supposed to engender?

the biggest and most dangerous difference IMO is misinformation. it affects the dojo on all levels.

take for instance the promise of a black belt within months to a brand new student with no experience. it cheapens everything the concept stands for. if people continually hear things like that or see a bunch of black belts that havent hit puberty then it could become ill informed common knowledge that black belts arent really that special. people will stop associating the black belts with years of diligent training and service to their style. just read any of Dents posts in this thread to get a better idea of this concept.

or how about what the dojo tells people? first example being the MMA "statistic" that is something along the lines of - 90% of fights go to the ground - which is a false statement intended to lend credence to brazillian jiujitsu being the "strongest" martial art. such definitive statements are foolish to make in regards to fighting but because the MMA community espouses this belief so frequently that the general public accepts it as true. even my Japanese sensei has heard this before and is baffled by it because all his real fights have ended with him in a standing position.

or touching on MMA again, people believe that muay thai is the strongest striking art or that it "has the strongest kicks". again, that doesnt make sense but people accept it as true.

not to mention when an average teacher opens his own school and teaches students on the basis of having "invented his own style". i remember when i wanted to create my own martial art..... i was 9.... when i finally started Judo in high school it only took me a couple weeks of real training to realize that was a foolish concept.

have you ever read a martial arts magazine? they are practically tabloids that obliterate everything we attempt to bestow on people. i was reading one at some point and an ad caught my eye. it was a story about martial artist A, his friend martial artist B, and a mysterious guy, which the story stresses is lanky and not a particularly well endowed specimen, that friend B brought to sparr with the guy A. the story entails a first hand account of a confused martial artist A who cant seem to land a hit on this mysterious guy his friend brought and who is getting pummeled by the mysterious guy, much to the friend Bs delight who is laughing at how many times the mysterious guy is hitting martial artist A. come to find out after the sparring session is over that the mysterious guy landed 4 times as many hits as martial artist A thought he recieved because the mysterious guy IS ACTUALLY A SPEED MASTER!!! AND FOR ONLY THREE EASY PAYMENTS OF 29.95 YOU CAN GET A DVD WITH A DETAILED TRAINING REGIMENT TO INCREASE YOUR SPEED TO NEAR SUPERHUMAN PROPORTIONS!!!! ACT NOW AND YOU CAN GET THE SPEED MASTERS BOOK WITH FACTS ABOUT TRAINING ONLY KNOWN TO HIM!!!!!!!

i could go on and on but i have to go now so ill let you mull over these points for a while.

[blazindave]

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

or touching on MMA again, people believe that muay thai is the strongest striking art or that it "has the strongest kicks". again, that doesnt make sense but people accept it as true.
.

I can somewhat attest to this. A guy who supposedly said he was sandan and did karate thought that knock down was lame. A trainer who works at the gym i go to. He saw my shirt (kyokushin tournament shirt) and mentioned he did that too.
However he does the Tae kwon do variety. Helmet and everything...pads, etc and punches to the face. It was point system.
I told him he should try knock down (said he had never done it, which i found odd) and thought it very lame when i told him you couldn't punch to the face...even though there was no protection for anything else. He said he was thinking to switch to Tae Kwon Do since he found it more fun. To each his own.
It's the no punch to the face thing. I've heard kyokushin bashed many times because of this one little fact.
Muay thai is so great because you can punch to the face.
Oh well.