Cults

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

Interesting discussion on another forum ref: Are martial arts cults?

Thought I'd ask the same question here, but before inviting answers or observations, some definitions of (cult) requirements may help:

A - Total compliance within the group
B - Total dependence on a leader; who is regarded as infallible
C - Avoidance of all dissent
D - Devaluation of the views of anyone not in the group

Straight away we can think of some borderline issues ......

I know my Dojo is not a cult. They keep coming despite regular proof that I am not infallible.

Gary

[tmd]

err No, not to me anyway as....

A - Total compliance within the group - Would never do something I was personally uncomfortable with.

B - Total dependence on a leader; who is regarded as infallible - I have met some Sensei with this opinion of themselves but very few students

C - Avoidance of all dissent - With one eye on answer (A) which I think undoes most of this, I have never actively answered back to an instructor

D - Devaluation of the views of anyone not in the group - Again maybe some Sensei take themselves a bit seriously or get a bit wrapped up in their own hype but with regards to the MA as a whole - total pants, just look at this forum!

I know some Church's don't let out their halls to MA clubs because of this type of myth, funnily enough it tends to be the ones who's answers to A-D would be a lot closer to yes.

[mary222]

i think that the word cult as you present it is over used and too negative. here is what i found;

according to wikipedia : Cult" typically refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding population considers to be outside the mainstream.

and from merriam-webster dictionarry :
1: formal religious veneration : worship
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

so are martist unusuall compare to most people... do they seems weird to most... to they have devotion to strong belief...

[Dent]

Osu!

I've seen groups that exhibited all of the above, but that was because the people were looking for that environment. Whether it was the MA, or some other activity, they would join because that's their nature.

I recently found out that the reason my brother is avoiding communicating with my family and I is because he has chosen to join a religious group I would characterize as a cult. One of their first tenets is to break all communication with outsiders.

No real MA would separate people from their families.

Osu!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

I agree that modern martial arts training is not set-up as a cult, but for those who advocate returning to the 'old' ways - and I suspect many have selective memory loss - it was sometimes uncomfortably close:

A - I remember being whacked for not looking dead ahead, despite the lad next to me having fallen to the floor

B - No-one dared question the Instructor, or had the authority to start a warm-up if he was late

C - People who argued or showed dissent - well let's just say they took a break from training

D - Other styles were constantly belittled, even in National Advertising

I am much more comfortable with modern ways - where the real reason for training is personal challenge and we can enjoy ourselves while doing so. Does this mean I / my students are weaker spiritually? I would argue that relaxing a little from iron discipline has in fact helped students to find that extra spark from within.

Gary

[ANTSAN]

I'll approach this question from a different angle:

While some cults may be similar to martial art styles. Not all martial art styles are similar to cults.




______________
On the other hand we already have a word for what we are: Martial Artists so there isnt really any need to re-catagorise us as a Cult.

Martial Art
Noun

Singular
martial art


Plural
martial arts

martial art (plural martial arts)

1. Commonly, any of several fighting styles which contain systematised methods of training for combat, both armed and unarmed; often practised as a sport, e.g. boxing, karate, judo, Silat, wrestling, or Muay Thai. Can also include military tactics such as infantry manoeuvres, aerial combat, and so on.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Antsan,

On the other hand we already have a word for what we are: Martial Artists so there isnt really any need to re-catagorise us as a Cult.

I am on your side here. I definately don't categorise what we do as a cult. It must be acknowledged though that some members of the public at large may be unsure. Destroying that notion is the idea of the thread, if only for the casual observer. Hopefully those who wax lyrical about the bad old days will consider what image we seek to put over to potential new members.

Gary

[ANTSAN]

Osu, my apoligies now I see what your trying to do:

some members of the public at large may be unsure. Destroying that notion is the idea of the thread

I started Kyokushin from a very young age, so for me I wasn't really aware that onlookers saw us as anything along the lines of a cult!!

I would also like to add that we attend the dojo primarily to learn, develop, practise etc etc my Idea of a cult is to attend to worship, idealise, pray etc... many many differences.

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu!

I agree that modern martial arts training is not set-up as a cult, but for those who advocate returning to the 'old' ways - and I suspect many have selective memory loss - it was sometimes uncomfortably close:

A - I remember being whacked for not looking dead ahead, despite the lad next to me having fallen to the floor

B - No-one dared question the Instructor, or had the authority to start a warm-up if he was late

C - People who argued or showed dissent - well let's just say they took a break from training

D - Other styles were constantly belittled, even in National Advertising

I am much more comfortable with modern ways - where the real reason for training is personal challenge and we can enjoy ourselves while doing so. Does this mean I / my students are weaker spiritually? I would argue that relaxing a little from iron discipline has in fact helped students to find that extra spark from within.

Gary

osu gary!! i agree about the way it was in the "old".....cult like, especially the belittling of other styles..[the heirachy protecting their income]

no you are not weaker, just more student friendly and not as greedy as some!!.....it would have been nice to have had somebody like yourself about in my area in the "old days"...things might have had a better outcome for me!

[jcc]

Osu! Gary,

I was just thinking that most cults will encourage their followers to cut off their links with friends and family (as mentioned by Dent), whereas we all go home after training, but then of course we have the uchi dechi, which maybe is a bit cult-like.

Also, in the 'old days' there definitely was more of an air of mystique around the whole MA world in general, but I think that the general popularisation of it all has undoubtably changed all that. These days most people seem to be better informed and know what judo, karate, kung fu or mma are and how they differ, rather than just lump all together as was done years ago. This does go towards demystifying it all and maybe making it less cult-like.

Osu!

[seienchin]

There are definitely some shihans who conduct their branches like a cult. I remember going on a camp once, and there were a number of very strange things happened. I will keep these statements general, as I don't wish it to be possible to identify the shihan involved.
Firstly, there was a menial and constant task that everyone had to attend to every minute of every day. There were 2 burly shodans assigned as the equivalent of "hall monitors", and they could pounce on you any time (literally, on the toilet, in the shower, in bed), and demand instant evidence that you had not forgotten to attend to the task. Failure to produce such evidence resulted in a ritual humiliation punishment (such as crawling on belly all way through dining all at mealtime). I was told that he previous year, a student who had refused was hung by the hands from a tree and left there for an hour!!! (This was in the late 1990s, not the "olden days"

Anyone who had an injury sent for the shihan, who would in turn send for his "bag". he would touch the injured site, rub something on it and declare the injury cured.

The most troubling activity was on the last night. All the black and brown belts had to give a talk about what a sourvenir of the camp meant to them. They retained it year after year, and brought the same one back... One after another they stood up and talked about how their "souvenir" was the most important thing in their lives, more important than ANYTHING. It was frankly scary, especially when one guy talked about how he had broken 3 marriages and estranged from 1 of his sons, but he was OK because he had his souvenir!!!!!

I was a brown-belt, and I couldn't bring myself to do it. I stood up and made some statement along the lines of "this is a piece of stone...it has nothing to do with who I am and does not make me a better person".
There was stunned silence.

And afterwards, so many coloured belts came up to me to thank me for breaking the spell.

I have never been back.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by jcc

of course we have the uchi dechi, which maybe is a bit cult-like.

Hmmmm... I worry that those who are looking for something to vilify can find elements in the martial arts, no matter what we do to improve their image.

The concept of training the next generation of instructors in-house is no different than any apprentice-teacher method used over centuries of our development. Dave Lowry uses the term martial artisan, and I think that it applies most in this example.

Not to paint with too broad a brush here, but I agree with TMD. I find that it is religious groups who most often use the word cult, and tend to demonize (Sorry, couldn't resist. ) us.

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by seienchin

There are definitely some shihans who conduct their branches like a cult.

Anyone who had an injury sent for the shihan, who would in turn send for his "bag". he would touch the injured site, rub something on it and declare the injury cured.

The most troubling activity was on the last night. It was frankly scary, especially when one guy talked about how he had broken 3 marriages and estranged from 1 of his sons, but he was OK because he had his souvenir!!!!!

I was a brown-belt, and I couldn't bring myself to do it. I stood up and made some statement along the lines of "this is a piece of stone...it has nothing to do with who I am and does not make me a better person".
There was stunned silence..

Good for you, Seienchin! It does sound like very strange behavior, and not at all healthy. I know that some people are looking for the "all-knowing, all-seeing Master", but that person is a fantasy. We're all fallible.

Osu!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Seienchin,

On the subject of punishments, I remember one girl being stripped down to her underwear on a summer camp and forced to run around the field to nervous laughter from all concerned .....

Looking back I wish I or others had stepped up and said "wait a minute, that's just wrong" but to my regret we never did. Congratulations for keeping your mind on the bigger picture and not following the herd.

Osu! Hasbeen,

Nice of you to say. I had my wild phase - I just copied my mentors - but I'd like to hope I have learnt from all my experiences. How I teach now might not suit everyone, but I make sure no-one ever gets abused in my dojo. If it takes longer to get the spirit coming through, that's OK, I've learnt a bit more patience.

Gary

[kakatootoshi]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu! Seienchin,

On the subject of punishments, I remember one girl being stripped down to her underwear on a summer camp and forced to run around the field to nervous laughter from all concerned .....

Looking back I wish I or others had stepped up and said "wait a minute, that's just wrong" but to my regret we never did. Congratulations for keeping your mind on the bigger picture and not following the herd.

Osu! Hasbeen,

Nice of you to say. I had my wild phase - I just copied my mentors - but I'd like to hope I have learnt from all my experiences. How I teach now might not suit everyone, but I make sure no-one ever gets abused in my dojo. If it takes longer to get the spirit coming through, that's OK, I've learnt a bit more patience.

Gary

Dear GJEChamerlain,
About the girl I think the person who ordered the punishment went too far even if it was a ladies-only summer camp, I cannot imagine that it was related to Kyokushin/knockdown.

OSU!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Kakatootoshi,

I'll not mention names I'm afraid. Not just being gutless, but I'd rather not cause the friction. It's a long long time ago ....

Gary

[kakatootoshi]

Dear GJEChamberlain,
I understand your position and I never intend you to reveal names. Your story has alerted us of things which we think are too distant from us, very educational! Please keep posting!

OSU!

[chen3141]

Strike First! Strike Hard! No Mercy Sir!