Kata: Your opinion

jake_kingeri_kiai · 07-31-2008, 09:24 AM

yes very good and all but to be honest i dont like kata.
I know they have a special meaning but what are your (all of you) thoughts on the purpose and meaning of a kata?

Jake

Dent · 07-31-2008, 07:26 PM

Osu!

I moved this to a new thread, as I felt it may be better suited to its own space.

I believe Kata is a combination of a storehouse of knowledge, and mind time. Personally, I'm not much good at Kata, but I do enjoy puzzling with a variety of applications that Kata may represent.

Osu!

**MilkManX** · 07-31-2008, 07:34 PM

I dont love kata but I like how it works.

It teaches you many things you didnt know about your style and yourself.

I find it essential to Martial Arts myself.

**Deaken** · 07-31-2008, 07:51 PM

I like Kata, especially learning and trying to understand the bunkai. Once you know what the movements represent they get much more interesting.

**supergroup7** · 07-31-2008, 08:24 PM

I love kata.. no.. no.. I adore kata.. no.. it's beyond that.. Kata is the reason that I started training in Karate, and it is the center of my path. Kata is stillness, and movement at the same time. Kata is moment by moment breaths with time no longer existing. Kata is moving meditation. Kata is life expression. Kata is wisdom of hidden applications of self preservation hidden to inexperienced eyes. Kata is demanding in body, mind, and spirit. It can benefit any age, and level of student. Kata is where Karate exists.

**SHIDOKANATLANTA** · 07-31-2008, 08:48 PM

kata teaches balance, grace, and coordination. kata is our link to the past. it teaches focus, precision, leads us towards a path to perfection (perfection of our basics). katas provide a mild form of exercise (of course some can require a lot of energy) that one can do at any age. as far as bunkai and hidden meanings, i think that many martial artist are over thinking it. it becomes theoretical. i personally don't think that the masters of old had some hidden techniques that they shared with only a few. it is what it is. i think beyond the mysteries of special techniques, katas are about self perfection.

Dent · 07-31-2008, 09:44 PM

Osu!

And for me, a very important element is that the Kata demonstrate the principles of the system.

Osu!

**jcc** · 07-31-2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

kata teaches balance, grace, and coordination. kata is our link to the past. it teaches focus, precision, leads us towards a path to perfection (perfection of our basics). katas provide a mild form of exercise (of course some can require a lot of energy) that one can do at any age. as far as bunkai and hidden meanings, i think that many martial artist are over thinking it. it becomes theoretical. i personally don't think that the masters of old had some hidden techniques that they shared with only a few. it is what it is. i think beyond the mysteries of special techniques, katas are about self perfection.

Osu!

I don´t think anyone could have put this better, especially the bit about perfecting the self - for me that is what karate is all about. Take away the kata and we loose the essence of the art.

seienchin · 07-31-2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

kata teaches balance, grace, and coordination. kata is our link to the past. it teaches focus, precision, leads us towards a path to perfection (perfection of our basics). katas provide a mild form of exercise (of course some can require a lot of energy) that one can do at any age. as far as bunkai and hidden meanings, i think that many martial artist are over thinking it. it becomes theoretical. i personally don't think that the masters of old had some hidden techniques that they shared with only a few. it is what it is. i think beyond the mysteries of special techniques, katas are about self perfection.

fantastic! After that, I have almost nothing left to say. In particular, I agree that it is important not to "over-think" the kata.

Brazilian Berseker · 07-31-2008, 10:04 PM

I don't think that kata is really usefull for fighting. Maybe is because I'm not in a high level in kyokushin. I've trained TKD, but poonse (kata in TKD) are not as complex as katas are in kyokushin...and honestly poonse are kind of silly. I've trained Muay Thai for like 10 years.....and there are no katas there. Maybe when I'm more experienced in kyokushin I'll understand some hidden tecniques inside the katas.

But despite of the lack of fighting use of kata, I actually like it very much. The coordination, the speed, the power of the tecniques....all of that really atract me. Kata is one of the reasons I quit muay thai and started kyokushin (wich I wanted to practice since I was 10 years old...but did not have the opportunity).
I like katas the way they are in kyokushin....traditional ones....."martial ones"...but those "dance katas" that I see in some "american karate competitions" in ESPN are just bad...It looks like gynastics.....it's just horrible.

ANTSAN · 08-01-2008, 12:35 AM

My opinion is that learning the correct rythm to a series of Kata helps to fuse the mind and body together. This ofcourse flows onto, and improves other aspects of karate.
I do believe Kata can help in kumite, even the very basic Taikyoku's foot work particularly in the turns can be applied in some way in almost every sparring session. Kata simply bings together basic techniques and demonstrates them in a practical application. As Sosai said: Think of karate as a language, the basic techniques can be thought of as letters of an alphabet, the kata will be thought of as words and sentances; the kumite will be thought of as conversations.

Dent · 08-01-2008, 01:43 AM

Osu!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazilian Berseker

I don't think that kata is really usefull for fighting.

I'm no Kata expert, but I have had selected moves from different Kata work for me. Most memorably the Tettsui from Saifa. Textbook.

Osu!

meguro · 08-01-2008, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazilian Berseker

I don't think that kata is really usefull for fighting. Maybe is because I'm not in a high level in kyokushin.

Osu!
I don't mean to single you out BB, but this seems to encapsulate the thinking on kata for most who've studied Japanese karate, particularly anything that's derived from Shotokan karate, which of course includes Kyokushin. No matter how high you climb in Kyokushin you will still be approaching kata as a an enigmatic dance; something practiced for character development, crisp striking, breathing, balance, timing etc. Another approach is to recognize the hidden technique and try to reverse engineer the bunkai.

I believe no reverse engineering is required. It will, however, require going outside of Japanese karate to find out what the dance moves really mean. For example, Okinawan and Chinese training methods, particularly with regard to joint locking, grappling and throwing will give you insight on what's going on in the Pinan series of kata.

A couple resources you might find interesting are Practical Chin Na (Zhao Da Yuan) and Bunkai Jutsu (Iain Abernathy).

**tmd** · 08-01-2008, 10:29 AM

I'm not very good at Kata (or anything else come to that!) but I do enjoy it and like to understand it, when it is just a series of movements I struggle to get it to stick but once the Bunkai is overlaid it seems to flow more, make sense and stick better. Maybe we should have the Bunkai taught as we go rather than only at higher levels or at special classes which seems to be the norm.

Brazilian Berseker · 08-01-2008, 12:57 PM

Meguro,

Don't worry about "single me out" , I'm aware that maybe my impressions of kata came from the fact that I'm not very experienced in kyokushin yet....despite the fact that I fight for more than 15 years now......in kyokushin i'm stil a blue belt. Maybe (probaly) you and the others that believe in katas are right and we can get something from kata for fighting. Anyway, I really like katas, and that is one of the reasosns i joined kyokushin.
And I would like to repeat, that crac that we see in ESPN in kickboxing katas competitions, or mac dojos katas....with tons of kicks, people smiling...or showing of useless moves with unreal weapons.....that kind of stuff gives martial arts a bad repuutation. On the oposite we have, traditional kung fu stiles (some of then..not all)...goku ryu, ueshi ryu, kyokushin and othe karate stiles, with solid and traditional katas that I love.

OSS!!!

**SHIDOKANATLANTA** · 08-01-2008, 01:33 PM

the reason there is no bunkai taught, is because no one has a clear concise method of how it should be taught. as i've stated before, most of the bunkai out there is buried in theory. they say a punch is a block and a block is throw or a strike. when they demonstrate that bunkai, the application deviates from the way the kata is performed and some justification is given. knock down karate (kyokushin and it's derivatives) were created created to break away from the the intricacies of these theories. most importantly, kata is a tool to teach us precision, balance, focus, rhythm, and concentration. it does not teach us to fight or defend ourself. we have to practice fighting and self defense. in all of training (kata, kumite, self defense), it is the warrior mindset that we use. that mindset is what we are training in kata. kihon and kata are exaggerated motions to teach body mechanics in the application of power.

meguro · 08-01-2008, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmd

Maybe we should have the Bunkai taught as we go rather than only at higher levels or at special classes which seems to be the norm.

Osu!tmd, this is the direction kata intruction and practice should take if it is to go beyond individual dance steps. You need practice working with a partner to learn how to apply the techniques. Imagine trying to be proficient in judo or wrestling just by going through stylized motions against an imaginary opponent-which is what kata practice is today. It can't be done.

Brazilian Berserker, I don't want to give the impression that I am a kata expert. I am not. I did have the experience to train a few days with a Goju Ryu kata specialist in Japan who taught me the way he had been taught. It was eye opening! I regret not having spent more time learning from him as I was caught up in knockdown tournament fever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

the reason there is no bunkai taught, is because no one has a clear concise method of how it should be taught.

Osu! SHIDOKANATLANTA, I do believe there already exists a clear and concise method. It lies outside of traditional Japanese Karate practice-in other words any style influenced by Gichin Funakoshi. Wasn't it Funakoshi who, when introducing karate to Japan, modified the dangerous elements in kata (by de-emphasizing vital point targeting, joint locks and throws) to make it a safe medium for developing character in schoolage students?

Consider sanchin dachi. Most interpretations of this stance hold that its purpose is to lower the center of gravity and create a stable platform. From a close-in fighting perspective, the hooking motion of the forward leg of sanchin dachi is a stylized depiction of a takedown technique: uchi mata.

niceguy · 08-01-2008, 03:44 PM

I don't really like kata but I seem to be able to pick them up quite easily, am currently doing the ura katas to improve my spin kicks, it helps with my balance . I must say I do like sanchin, just need to do it like a real pro now

**SHIDOKANATLANTA** · 08-01-2008, 05:01 PM

i've seen and read funakoshi's book. i've seen examples of the techniques. and i still don't see it. not all of his students we're kids. there would have been a lot of adults at that time learning these unique methods bunkai. being a judoka myself, i don't see that sanchin dachi translating to uchimata. most of the joint locks, pressure point attacks presented in the katas don't work in the manner the katas present. for example, some will say that a forward thrusting punch from a front stance is not only a punch, but a throw and an outside block is lock or twisting of the limbs. i say no.

mary222 · 08-01-2008, 05:33 PM

kata (and kihon) are the basics of kyokushin just like the foundation of a house it can seem flat boring and we never really want to discuss it but get rid of it and see what happend. And not going to state all the benefits of katas some people did a really good job already (osu SHIDOKANATLANTA san)

to me saying katas are useless to MA is just like the high school kid saying " What do i learn Math for Im going to be a football player!...

MA is a whole you cannot disregard any part.
Mottos no 9 Martial Arts begin with a point and end in a circle. Straight lines stem from this principle.

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