Different styles

[TRK]

I have been training in Japanese MA since 1993. First Aikido (both Ki society and Aikikai though I didn't know there was a difference at the time) now Seibukan Jujutsu (derived from Hakko Ryu). I am a nikkyu in Aikido, and am testing for Shodan in Seibukan jujutsu in a week and a half. When I was younger I saw Aikido as the only way to go. My parents studied it and I was very taken with the nonviolent aspect of it. Studying jujutsu has opened my eyes to a wider range of MA, and has made me wonder a lot about effective self defense. It has also made me realize that I really have no idea how to strike effectively. Aikido, in particular, is not a good place to learn effective striking.

So, in a few months I am moving to a new town (Pullman, WA). I know there is a well-known Kyokushin dojo there. I think there are some former students from that dojo on this board. A friend also recommended the Goju ryu classes taught at the university there. Finally, there is a Kokondo karate dojo there as well. I intend to visit classes for all of these when I get there to get a feel for what they are really like, but I was wondering if I could get some idea from the members of this board about the general differences in these styles. I know that sometimes stylistic differences matter less than the individual sensei, but I also know that different styles focus very differently.

I am drawn to Kyokushin (which is why I am posting here). I am very interested in getting a feel for more realistic sparring and harder training. It looks to me, based entirely on internet research, like Kyokushin focuses on realism and sparring and Goju ryu is more kata-based. I have read unflattering things about Kokondo on e-budo, but will also check out this style with as open a mind as I am able. I would welcome specific thoughts for me, as well as a discussion of the differences in style that people have experienced in their training.

Thank you and

Tim

[Brad]

osu.

Trk. If you want to sparr alot stick to kyokushin as this will get you tuned in to taking more condition to the body. I am not to sure about the other styles that you mentoined, but i do know if you dont mind being kicked or punched, kyokushin is for you. If you want more to do with Kata, traditional Karate. I know for sure that if you tried Mauy thai you might like the conditioning from that also it's all up to what you want. I have tried these thats why i have commented, but for the other styles i have to be careful as what i say, as i dont know there styles.

[schuyler]

Hey Tim,

I trained for 5 years at the Pullman/WSU dojo. Shihan Adams may be a little 'rough' around the edges, but he is one hell of an instructor. I'd reckon that Washington state has one of the (if not THE) largest amount of same-organization Kyokushin dojo's in the United States. While Kyokushin practioners from other countries are used to having a large community around them, its pretty rare in the U.S.. I live in Colorado now and there is my dojo, an independent Kyokushin dojo in Denver (that we train with), and a dojo in Colo Springs that will have nothing to do with us due to the difference in organizations.

Yes, this isn't answering your questions, but you are already on the right track in that you should simply visit all the dojo's and see which one you like the best.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

[ANTSAN]

Osu,

If I read your post correctly is sounds asthough you're looking for an applicable martial art to compliment your existing experience in Aikido and Ju-Jitsu, im sure kyokushin will live up to that expectation.

OSU!
Antsan

[mudanshatron]

Osu,

I think I may have been through a similar situation to yours at the moment.

I began my martial arts training in Ju-Jitsu (Under Shihan Mark Haseman at his Tohkon Ryu - derived from Takeuchi Une Ryu) at the age of 7 and continued there until my family relocated 8yrs later to a rural area where there was only Karate (Zen Do Kai / Goju derived freestyle form) & Taekwondo to choose from. I went down the Karate path and eventually reached Shodan before relocating back to the city as an adult.

After a long break, I re-commenced my Ju-Jitsu training under Shihan Mark and began the search for a Karate style that complimented the Ju-Jitsu training.

After practicing Shukokai (derived from Shitu Ryu) at my cousins dojo for almost a year, I felt it was lacking in power and too sports orientated. Luckily there was a Kyokushin dojo a few blocks away from my work, where I began training and have been hooked ever since.

I find the fighting & training style is a perfect compliment to Ju-Jitsu. Kyokushin having a very strong focus on spirit, fitness and (extremely powerfull & efficient) stand up technique. Whilst the Ju-Jitsu training at Tohkon Ryu consists mainly of self defence scenarios, randori & grappling.

I hope you find what you seek in Kyokushin, as I did.

[tmd]

IMO Kyokushin is to Karate what Jujitsu is to Judo - the same basis but a bit more full on just my opinion but I've looked at scores of different Martial Arts over the last 20 odd years, trained in about 10 gone to about 4th - 1st Kyu level in 5 of them. Whenever we do free fighting what seems to work for me best is a mix of my Jujitsu and Kyokushin. But as ever and as you have already stated it's more about the Sensei and the DOJO than the style - best of luck and please feel free to remaining part of our virtual dojo if you happen not to chose a Kyokushin path at this time you opinions are still just as valid.

[Spirit]

The Sensei is the key NOT the Style

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Spirit

The Sensei is the key NOT the Style

Spirit, this is of course 100% true but what about the Dojo atmosphere; I have trained under some great Sensei's from a technical point of view but that lacked a little man management skills and there were some disruptive influences in the dojo that did stop me training there as, I found it more beneficial to train in a dojo that suited me under a slightly less capable (technically) Sensei.

I already know the answer should be: the Dojo is the Sensei the Sensei is the Dojo, but given that some Sensei can feel constrained by the political point of view of the organization they belong too, for example he may be having to pass people at a lesser level than he feel is appropriate because it is the norm within the org so I ask is this still 100% the case?

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by tmd

I already know the answer should be: the Dojo is the Sensei the Sensei is the Dojo, but given that some Sensei can feel constrained by the political point of view of the organization they belong too, for example he may be having to pass people at a lesser level than he feel is appropriate because it is the norm within the org so I ask is this still 100% the case?

I think you've answered your own question, TMD. It isn't the style in your example, but an outside body that creates an artificial environment.

My opinion on this is clear. Any grade given by that instructor is the instructor's responsibility. No palming it off on anyone else.

Osu!

[shinobijesus]

hey TRK, i had to make pretty much the same choice you did when i was looking for a karate style.

the first place i really expected to start training was a kata focused dojo with an interesting sensei. it was affordable and had respectable lineage. the idea of not sparring didnt bother me at first.

then i found the Kyokushin dojo that i joined as soon as i walked in. it had less students and less money than the other dojo but almost completely opposite principles. still doing kata but without neglecting sparring. coming from a Judo background where we learned by fighting i could tell this place was for me.

ive studied more than a few things but the strongest things from my experience that match up very well stylistically are the grappling techniques of Judo and the striking of Kyokushin. its worked out spectacularly for me so i can only imagine it will work out well for someone with such extensive background in Aikido and jujutsu.

stop back in later and let us know what you decide.

[AE]

Originally Posted by tmd

IMO Kyokushin is to Karate what Jujitsu is to Judo - the same basis but a bit more full on just my opinion but I've looked at scores of different Martial Arts over the last 20 odd years, trained in about 10 gone to about 4th - 1st Kyu level in 5 of them. Whenever we do free fighting what seems to work for me best is a mix of my Jujitsu and Kyokushin. But as ever and as you have already stated it's more about the Sensei and the DOJO than the style - best of luck and please feel free to remaining part of our virtual dojo if you happen not to chose a Kyokushin path at this time you opinions are still just as valid.

In my opinion, the analogy kyokushin/karate = jujitsu/judo is misleading because judo is the sport version of jujitsu while kyokushin is a sport karate style among others. On the other hand, some people still study and practice koryu jujitsu, so the karate equivalent would be some people that still practice some form of old karate (toudi) that still keeps the old ways (hard conditioning, strong sparring, joint locks, throws, etc). Note that by modern karate I include "traditional karate" as well as "hard contact karate". So maybe the ancestor of modern karate may fulfill those requirements:

jujitsu/judo = toudi/karate

So the next question would be: what karate dojo practices hard contact sparring, throws, sweeps, strikes, kicks (specially low kicks), kanzetsu geri, headbutts, hard body conditioning, joint locks (to submission or to break). There are some dojo where you can find it all, but they are not going to teach it to you right away. And they are very few.

So I would check the kyokushin dojo and the goju dojo. Since it is easier to know what to expect from a kyokushin dojo, I would have a long talk with the goju instructor explaining exactly what you want, so you know if that goju dojo is what you are looking for. Some goju ryu dojo practice hard core sparring and you wouldn't regret join them.

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by AE

In my opinion, the analogy kyokushin/karate = jujitsu/judo is misleading because judo is the sport version of jujitsu

not if you manage to find a great sensei that wants to pass on Judo the way Jigoro Kano wanted it rather than the way Olympic judges want it.

[Spirit]

If you have been training for 15 years I do not think you need to ask this question at all.
You understand [or one would think/hope you do] the dynamics of M/A's. Find the Sensei that fits and train under him/her...

[hasbeen]

imo i think you are on the right route already, visit everybody and your experience will guide you to the most relevent dojo for your needs. osu!! i hope you find what you want.

[AE]

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

not if you manage to find a great sensei that wants to pass on Judo the way Jigoro Kano wanted it rather than the way Olympic judges want it.

This is an off topic, but a nice one: It was Kano sensei who transformed the old jujitsu into an sport called "judo". Judo was created in 1882 as a sport. What happened after it was just the evolution of the sport he created.

You can see remnants of the history in the name of BJJ: Brazilian jujitsu is actually an offspring of Kano sensei's judo: it is an style of judo that keeps the old name "jujitsu" because Maeda sensei, judoka and kodokan member, arrived in Brazil in 1914, when the name "judo" was not widely accepted. Instead, many people used to called it "Kano Ju jitsu" or just "jujitsu". That is what happened in Brazil: they called it "jujitsu" and they have kept that name since. So technically speaking, BJJ is not koryu jujitsu.

[TRK]

Thanks everyone for your help and an insteresting discussion. I have been training long enough to have some idea what I want and was looking for reflections on Karate styles (something I have no experience with). I also agree with tmd that the sensei is important, but not everything can be judged by him/her. I was desperate to train Aikido while traveling once and trained with somebody I had doubts about. One of his senior students threw me badly and I separated my shoulder-my worst training injury to date. Another sensei who I really liked, and would have loved to train with individually was too permissive with his senior students and created a dojo atmosphere that was unnecessarily rough. The "arthritic changes" in my wrists are my reminder of that lesson.

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by AE

This is an off topic, but a nice one: It was Kano sensei who transformed the old jujitsu into an sport called "judo". Judo was created in 1882 as a sport. What happened after it was just the evolution of the sport he created.

You can see remnants of the history in the name of BJJ: Brazilian jujitsu is actually an offspring of Kano sensei's judo: it is an style of judo that keeps the old name "jujitsu" because Maeda sensei, judoka and kodokan member, arrived in Brazil in 1914, when the name "judo" was not widely accepted. Instead, many people used to called it "Kano Ju jitsu" or just "jujitsu". That is what happened in Brazil: they called it "jujitsu" and they have kept that name since. So technically speaking, BJJ is not koryu jujitsu.

i respect your viewpoint and im already aware of this information, but like all styles that have lost their founders to time i believe the original intent becomes more open to wider interpretation and i also believe Kano intended for it to be something more than "just a sport".

if you want to discuss this further you could PM me. or maybe we could just keep talking here to keep the thread on the front page so TRK will come back and let us know what he chose.

[TRK]

Well it looks like my plans have changed pretty completely. I am still looking for a karate dojo, but now in Syracuse, NY. If I could choose a style, I think Enshin or Ashihara would fit me best-I like the idea of Sabaki and circular movement, which fits with the Aikido and jujutsu experience I already have, applied to a full-contact striking art. That said, I am limited geographically, so I would love to hear suggestions for places to train in the Syracuse area.

Osu,

Tim

[MilkManX]

I know of only one Enshin dojo in NY and dont think its that close to you.

Enshin New York Home

Setauket, New York

Good training to you!

[Nix]

Sadly, I don't think there are any Ashihara dojo in New York either.