Sensei Sempai

**tmd** · 08-13-2008, 11:51 PM

How come Kyokushin is out of step with other Karate styles even the ones it is derived from?

In other styles you are a Sempai from 3rd or 2nd Kyu and a Sensei from 1st Dan yet in Kyokushin it's Sempai from 1st Dan (although some it's 1st Kyu) but not a Sensei until for most 3rd Dan - (although for some it's 2nd if you're already running a dojo)?

Just interested really...

**ksan** · 08-14-2008, 02:56 AM

We used to do sensei at shodan to yondan until our national organisation alligned itself with the IFK

shinobijesus · 08-14-2008, 08:21 AM

dont know but it makes sense to me. what never made sense was the fact that someone went from senior student to teacher just cause their belt changed color.

however like im arguing in the young sandan thread, it probably should just be used as a guideline to give some buffer zone between getting a shodan and being regarded as a sensei. theres plenty of shodans and nidans who are so experienced it would be somewhat insulting to call them sempai.... *shrug*

Nix · 08-14-2008, 09:37 AM

It varies from dojo/organization, also between knock-down dojo. Some dojo uses sempai for anyone senior to themselves, even if it is a blue belt. Most traditional dojo in Denmark don't even use titles at all.

Spirit · 08-14-2008, 11:57 AM

The title senpai is for all who are a senior over you [a person who started training before you] be you godan and the other person Rokudan OR
like myself many of my Senpai's [those who started before me] stopped training do to kids and job. I'm now higher dan then them yet they are still all my senpai...

As for rank and title it really is just a measuring point not written in stone as to when etc...
In a small/new dojo a gokyu being the highest kyu under the sensei [be they shodan or any other dan] would be senpai in title.

As well the title sensei, it is the correct title for all dan ranks no matter how high, usually in Kyokushin and other newer styles the title Shihan comes into play.
Though if one looks back at all other earlier style and founders, they all used the title sensei only and very few used Shihan outside a formal setting.
So I would say focus on the wisdom not the title...

shinobijesus · 08-14-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit

As well the title sensei, it is the correct title for all dan ranks no matter how high, usually in Kyokushin and other newer styles the title Shihan comes into play.
Though if one looks back at all other earlier style and founders, they all used the title sensei only and very few used Shihan outside a formal setting.
So I would say focus on the wisdom not the title...

sensei says you get in trouble for calling a Shihan a Sensei in Japan.

Dent · 08-14-2008, 08:51 PM

Osu!

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

sensei says you get in trouble for calling a Shihan a Sensei in Japan.

Try running around and carrying bags etc. for various dignitaries, and keeping all the correct titles straight. With a stutter...

Osu!

**smoothsake** · 08-14-2008, 10:13 PM

Spirit has it right. That is how it was explained to me and we run a pretty traditional Japanese dojo. However outside Japan, in most dojos even within IKO1 the title seems more closely tied to the belt: 2kyu-2dan = senpai, 3-4dan = sensei, 5dan+ = shihan.

TakatomiMonsta · 08-15-2008, 04:25 AM

In our dojo everyone above you in rank is senpai and only seems to become sensei if they actively seek to become sensei. I'm not sure what this involves, some kind of teaching certificate maybe? At 5th dan you become shihan. When I was in Japan it seemed to be the same system. Maybe this is an IKO 1 thing?
OSU

StarKodama · 08-15-2008, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

sensei says you get in trouble for calling a Shihan a Sensei in Japan.

Not true-- especially if your shihan actually teaches class! Of course it's probably better to refer to them by their more distinguished title of "shihan", but "sensei" is ok too. (And I double-checked this with my bf before I typed it.

)

And yeah, anybody above you is your senpai, and anyone who actually teaches the class is your sensei. After 3 years of training, I was finally referred to as -senpai for the first time by a new white belt. I gotta admit, it felt pretty good!

shinobijesus · 08-15-2008, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarKodama

Not true-- especially if your shihan actually teaches class! Of course it's probably better to refer to them by their more distinguished title of "shihan", but "sensei" is ok too. (And I double-checked this with my bf before I typed it.

)

well, he was talking about a particular shihan so ill just take his word for it.

**tmd** · 08-15-2008, 08:34 AM

When I started this post I thought I was looking for a definitive ' oh when Sosai formed Kyokushin formed Kyokushin he decided this is Sempai this Sensei - now I'm more confused than ever! God I can't wait till I'm a 3rd Dan at least I know what I'm to be called according to this, so far I'm everything from Kohai to Sensei!

Just to clarify... Most of the dojos I visit are either IKK or IKF - I know in our (IKK) I am nothing till Black then Sempai then Sensei from either 2nd or 3rd Dan dependent on if you teach (I already teach so in class I am a Sempai)

In IKF from 2nd Kyu to 2nd Dan are Sempai and the 3rd and above are Sensei?

If this is right at least I'll not be offending anyone too soon

Nix · 08-15-2008, 10:23 AM

I don't think there is a right way to do it. Just stick to what you are used to, I say.

GJEChamberlain · 08-15-2008, 10:34 AM

Osu!

It's easy for us. In Enshin a Branch Chief is 'Sensei'
Black belts and indeed anyone who joined before you is your 'sempai'
'Kancho' is the boss. Job done.

I must admit I find it hard to get excited about people who insist on their rank or title being revered and defered too. I've been on multi style courses before where it took about 15 minutes before people agreed who should stand where or above who. I remember thinking that if you're not confident enough to stand anywhere and just get on with it - without your ego being massaged - having a grander title really won't help ....

Gary

Spirit · 08-15-2008, 10:48 AM

Look I call everyone Sensei be they higher rank than I or lower in the setting of the dojo or tourney.

If in a formal setting I will go by Shihan as an introduction, but Sensei from that point forward.

If someone is 5 dan or so, yes the title of shihan comes into play, but as I understand it [old way pre wwII] shihan was just that a title only used during formal intro's and in your signature i.e.
"sensei tom jones nanadan shihan"
It is like calling someone CEO rather than Mr. Bossman

The title shihan over the years became something everyone used do to many outside Okinawa started to use it more as a name than a title... same goes for hanshi..

As well the titles Renshi and Kyoshi...
One should not be call them, they are a title give do to one is a very good 5th, 6th dan [renshi] better than most, yet do not have the years as a 5th or 6th dan to be promoted up.
As the same goes for Kyoshi. And in most cases these titles are used in kendo, kyudo, etc not in Karate yet you see them so much now...

Look Sensei means "come before" basically or loosely translated one who is born before you.
This usually means someone with wisdom and knowledge of their years = "Teacher"
That is what I do, that is what I'm called..

Shihan-Master teacher and Hanshi Master teacher of an organization, I'm not since I'm always learning and passing on that knowledge be I rokudan or judan sensei it will be.

Please, stop focusing on titles and focus on knowledge

shinobijesus · 08-16-2008, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmd

When I started this post I thought I was looking for a definitive ' oh when Sosai formed Kyokushin formed Kyokushin he decided this is Sempai this Sensei - now I'm more confused than ever!

In IKF from 2nd Kyu to 2nd Dan are Sempai and the 3rd and above are Sensei?

If this is right at least I'll not be offending anyone too soon

tell you what, heres an easy way to figure it out. you have a main sensei who owns the dojo right? ask him what you should call the other black belts.

you could also ask him how serious the use of the terms 'senpai' and 'kohai' are if you want. or just remember everyones name.

i dont get why so many people are exasperated by this thread. i think its a good question. or it would be if you could glean any clarification from the responses. some dojos are just more formal than others. nothing wrong with that.

**ksan** · 08-16-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

I've been on multi style courses before where it took about 15 minutes before people agreed who should stand where or above who.

Gary

Dent · 08-16-2008, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

I must admit I find it hard to get excited about people who insist on their rank or title being revered and defered too. I've been on multi style courses before where it took about 15 minutes before people agreed who should stand where or above who. I remember thinking that if you're not confident enough to stand anywhere and just get on with it - without your ego being massaged - having a grander title really won't help ....

I've seen that problem. The seminar Instructor fixed it very quickly, by repeatedly calling each of the guys in the front row up to demonstrate on them. Roughly.

Unfortunately, for the second session the problem was that no-one wanted to stand in the front.

Osu!

Surfer_Sam · 08-18-2008, 10:18 AM

IT really depends on what Kyokushin organisation you belong I think. In the old days, 15 years ago, it used to be sempau, unless you ran a dojo and then you were sensei. Which of course meant that a sempai could be a sempai to a sensei.

And re the Shihan thing, I always call Shihan "Shihan". Although once a long time ago when leading the formal bow out, with visiting Shihan in attendance, did sempai ni rei. got given a very stern look, mentally cursed my self, tried sensai ni rei. another stern look. Maybe its my pronounciation of Japanese, tried Sensei NI rei again. Another stern look, and a slight tap on the belt. Being a smart person, counted the stripes. Light comes on!!!! Shihan ni rei. Stern look disappears!!

kakatootoshi · 08-18-2008, 11:00 AM

Dear Surfer,
May I ask you a question? Was the Shihan (or the person who gave you a stern look, same person?) a Japanese?

OSU!

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