Bruce Lee vs. Mas Oyama

[Tettsui]

I used to learn kickboxing from a Japanese Champion and he used to get into street fights all the time. What he told me is that on the speed usually wins on the street and power wins in the ring. If you think about it, you only need one eye jab or one kin teki geri to win a street fight.

Anyways, I wasn't much of a fan of Bruce Lee until I watched a few documentaries on him. What I appreciate about him is he didn't limit himself with the unwritten "rules" of fighting. To him, there was no such thing as "fair" but only winning. So he would bite if the need came. Bruce Lee also lived his life that way, for instance when he couldn't gain fame in America. The TV studios though America wasn't ready for an Asian lead role. Instead of staying and doing bit parts and trying to convince the studios he could do it, Bruce Lee went back to Hong Kong to become a superstar. Once he created a blockbuster movie there, the American studios begged him to do a movie. You gotta admire his thinking outside of the box.

My feeling is that Bruce Lee is the type of guy who'd use ippon ken in a kyokushin tournament.

[jcc]

Originally Posted by Spirit

It will cost you $500.00 for the answer

Osu! Spirit,

I reckon you´re selling yourself short - this info must be worth at least $5000!

[yashin]

well its more upto wich martial art is more developped frankly speaking i am not saying that bruce lee is weak actualy he is extremely strong and iam huge fan of him ... i studied his martial art jitkundo actually its good but not as good as kyukushin .
jitkundo focuses mainly on punches but it has some good kicks too and alot of tricks that you wont find in another game but it is not as developped as kyukushin for example in jitkundo you use one hand as guard and you hit with another same with the legs unlike kyukushin where you hit with youre both hands and legs wich is more effecient actually the one hand system is old and not used any more because it is not practicle
its because kyukushin is superior to jitkundo i would like to asume that oyama would win not because bruce lee is bad but because his fighting system is less effecient than kyukushin

[Dent]

Osu!

In a fight between a good, but small, fighter, and a good, but big, fighter, I'd bet on the big guy. In a confrontation between exceptional fighters, it becomes more like a sword fight, with one strike being the potential finishing blow.

Now comes personal bias.

Bruce Lee was an actor. Sosai was committed to the ideal of making something more than himself; a vehicle to strengthen the next generation and the next and the next. To that end, he subjected himself to continuous testing against the most dangerous animal on the planet. Man. Again and again he fought, with the idea of finding the ultimate truth.

Yes, Bruce Lee looks impressive at times, but I don't think he'd stand a chance against Sosai.

Osu!

[Lonewolf]

Osu! I once heard an interesting comment that action star Bruce Lee said about Kyokushin Karate. He was asked "What do you think of Kyokushin Karate"? His answer was "That Kyokushin is a crazy knockdown style". On many ocassions Bruce lee expressed his disdain for Japanese Karate in general. He would say that karate was too stiff, too unnatural, and too slow. But, his comments on Kyokushin seem to have a little respect thrown in there. I know that Sosai thought of Bruce lee as an actor and not a serious martial artist, definitely not a fighter.
I always thought it would have been extremely interesting to see Bruce Lee in the ring against Japanese Kickboxing legend Toshio Fujiwara. They were both about the same height and weight. Fujiwara-san was trained in kickboxing by my old teacher, Shihan Kenji Kurosaki, and he was a very tough and spirited competitor. Sosai Mas Oyama always said that Toshio Fujiwara was a real fighter, one of the world's best. Sosai frequently went to see Fujiwara's kickboxing matches right at ringside. That was a great honor because Sosai would not have just gone to anybody's matches like that if he didn't really like them.
Toshio Fujiwara vs. Bruce Lee? Osu!

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

In a fight between a good, but small, fighter, and a good, but big, fighter, I'd bet on the big guy. In a confrontation between exceptional fighters, it becomes more like a sword fight, with one strike being the potential finishing blow.

Now comes personal bias.

Bruce Lee was an actor. Sosai was committed to the ideal of making something more than himself; a vehicle to strengthen the next generation and the next and the next. To that end, he subjected himself to continuous testing against the most dangerous animal on the planet. Man. Again and again he fought, with the idea of finding the ultimate truth.

Yes, Bruce Lee looks impressive at times, but I don't think he'd stand a chance against Sosai.

Osu!

I agree with the first half of this Dent but can we not let the fact that the guy for part of his life was an actor cloud our judgment as to how remarkable a martial artist me was, was Dolph Lundgren not one of the most formidable knockdown fighters of his time yet 95% of the world that has heard of him would say oh that huge actor who went out with Grace Jones, what ever happened to him?

Before he was an actor Bruce Lee was a martial artist and had written works to prove this, his first book was published in 1963 (when he was about 22?) the year before the Long Beach Karate tournament at which he was discovered and offered the Green Hornet role, he also wrote a (good) 4 book series called fighting method which in order covering self defense, basic training, advanced training, and skills and techniques, he later went on to write the Tao of Jeet Kune Do while recovering from a potentially career ending back injury as a way of recuperating and joining together a series of notes he had written, this led to the formation of the style-less style of Jeet Kwon Do which had Kung fu at it's base but incorporated included Kali and Peantukan styles of combat along with fencing footwork and western boxing strikes a real first for the martial arts, and not dissimilar a leap from Kyokushin to Enshin etc?

I actually think if BL had never made it as an actorhe would still have gone on to become a famous Martial Artist if he'd been with us a little longer? who knows what he could have made of JKD.

Lastly, IMO any comments he made regarding anything Japanese I think we have to remember the time frame and the long standing racial issues between the Japanese and Chinese, it would have been very hard for him to have openly praised a martial art of Japanese origin or Sosai.

Still stand that Sosai would have beaten him though

[homer_simpson]

I think Bruce Lee was a great martial artist. He studied many fighting systems from Chinese Kung-fu, to Western Boxing, to Fencing, etc. I bet he came across Karate as well. He had a wealth of knowledge about various martial arts. He realized the limitation of the traditional Chinese Kung-fu he studied before, and tried to create something better.

Unfortunately, I believe that his work with Jeet Kune Do was far from done, when Bruce died. It was what I think as a work in-progress. I am not saying that JKD is inferior or weak or something else. If you look at JKD, there are many interesting ideas that Bruce tried to introduce there. However, those ideas seem 'raw' and not that well 'developed' yet. Nonetheless, you can get a feeling that those ideas could be the beginning of something great. It was the start of something big. It'd be interesting to see what the 'finished work' would look like.

It's hard to say who would win between Bruce and Sosai. I think Bruce is more of an outboxer type, while Sosai is more of an in-fighter type. But, in a street fight where anything goes, lead-side attacks (which was heavily advocated by Bruce Lee) play an important part. Ask any boxer about the importance of jab. Under kyokushin rules where you can't punch the face, jab (or backfist in JKD) becomes ineffective.

[tmd]

Originally Posted by homer_simpson

I Under kyokushin rules where you can't punch the face, jab (or backfist in JKD) becomes ineffective.

I use this a lot? don't find it ineffective also kick a lot of my front leg which has been known to generate enough force to end a fight.

[sublimo]

It s like you pop the question: who will win Spiderman or batman? Dumb

[Kurisu]

How about Magilla Gorilla vs Grape Ape


vs

[sublimo]

Originally Posted by Kurisu

How about Magilla Gorilla vs Grape Ape


vs

That s even more silly, Magilla is real and the Grape Ape is a cartoon!!!
They can t fight each other!

[shinobijesus]

LMAO! i leave for a couple days and come back to an awesome hypothetical like this? awesome.

i hate to play the rational martial artists line but i have to. i dont know enough about either of them to make this call. they both died before i even started training martial arts. let alone had the chance to meet them in person and know how important that day was while it happened.

i will say this, i can see either of them winning. i can see Bruce making a mistake in some kind of supposition about Sosai and Sosai nailing him squarely with the one punch it would take someone called "God-Hand" to end a fight. conversely i could see Sosai being overconfident about an actor having the audacity to face him and just being baffled by Bruces speed and variety of techniques. i agree with people when they say JKD was a 'work in progress' and wasnt finished but that goes out the window when talking about Bruce Lee. JKD was the embodiment of his own martial arts. a window to his soul practically. finished or not it couldnt be stronger with anyone than it was with him. trying to equate what his JKD was based on what JKD is today would be a grave mistake IMO.

awesome. im so asking this question at the dojo after class....

btw, spiderman would pwn batman. no contest.

[bitterbut]

Originally Posted by tmd

Back on thread....

There is no comparison between these 2 great martial artists, it is as hypothetical as Ali vs Tyson it can't be answered just makes for a great debate..

Your right Oyama was a fighter bruce was and actor turned M/A turned movie star turned druggie.....

[MilkManX]

Originally Posted by bitterbut

Your right Oyama was a fighter bruce was and actor turned M/A turned movie star turned druggie.....

There is no concrete proof of that and I call Libel.

[tmd]

Originally Posted by bitterbut

Your right Oyama was a fighter bruce was and actor turned M/A turned movie star turned druggie.....

Originally Posted by tmd

I agree with the first half of this Dent but can we not let the fact that the guy for part of his life was an actor cloud our judgment as to how remarkable a martial artist me was, was Dolph Lundgren not one of the most formidable knockdown fighters of his time yet 95% of the world that has heard of him would say oh that huge actor who went out with Grace Jones, what ever happened to him?

Before he was an actor Bruce Lee was a martial artist and had written works to prove this, his first book was published in 1963 (when he was about 22?) the year before the Long Beach Karate tournament at which he was discovered and offered the Green Hornet role, he also wrote a (good) 4 book series called fighting method which in order covering self defense, basic training, advanced training, and skills and techniques, he later went on to write the Tao of Jeet Kune Do while recovering from a potentially career ending back injury as a way of recuperating and joining together a series of notes he had written, this led to the formation of the style-less style of Jeet Kwon Do which had Kung fu at it's base but incorporated included Kali and Peantukan styles of combat along with fencing footwork and western boxing strikes a real first for the martial arts, and not dissimilar a leap from Kyokushin to Enshin etc?

I actually think if BL had never made it as an actorhe would still have gone on to become a famous Martial Artist if he'd been with us a little longer? who knows what he could have made of JKD.

Lastly, IMO any comments he made regarding anything Japanese I think we have to remember the time frame and the long standing racial issues between the Japanese and Chinese, it would have been very hard for him to have openly praised a martial art of Japanese origin or Sosai.

Still stand that Sosai would have beaten him though

Please don't quote me unless you're prepared to read the whole thread . BL was an amazing (Published) Martial Artist BEFORE he was an actor - it's how he was discovered, doing a demo which included 2 finger push ups on 1 hand! and demonstrating his 1" punch! As for the druggie thing, that's way off (IMO) I believe he died as reported - after taking an aspirin and NOT taking his prescribed medicines (for a brain swelling condition which was under observation) fell into a comma and died leaving a wife and pair of kids and about a billion fans, respect please.

[walshy]

Originally Posted by bitterbut

Your right Oyama was a fighter bruce was and actor turned M/A turned movie star turned druggie.....

NICE!!!!

[Tettsui]

From the other thread:

One last thing - Mas wasn't undefeated. He lost two fights. One of them, ironically, was to a Wing Chun practitioner named William Cheung. The other was to a little known Brazilian dude named Gracie.


Does anyone have any info about this? Did Sosai really fight a Gracie?

[tmd]

One last thing - Mas wasn't undefeated. He lost two fights. One of them, ironically, was to a Wing Chun practitioner named William Cheung. The other was to a little known Brazilian dude named Gracie.

Never heard of either of these... anyone???

[shinobijesus]

theres so much mythology surrounding all predominant martial artists its basically impossible to know things like that. maybe Sosai fought a gracie but considering what that name is known for dont you think that would be a bigger story for the gracies? wouldnt they be bragging about defeating God-Hand? the gracies are anything but humble about their style. that alone leads me to bel