Fighter or Martial Artist?

[Kudoist]

Originally Posted by shodan88

And quite frankly,anybody can be a fighter,but NOT ALL can be martial artist.

Actually I see this the other way around.
Most of the guys in my dojo are martial artists, striving to better themselves through physical and mental discipline.
But only a few have what it takes to compete as fighters.

To be a fighter requires total discipline, self sacrifice and intense hard work, beyond what the average person is willing to endure.
Its a hard painfull road, but the lessons learned are valuable.

I have found competition to be a very spiritual path, in the sense that you cannot hold on to any self dellusions as a fighter.
Any weakness that you dont address will be exposed when you get in that ring for all to see. You have to look hard at yourself and face up to things that you may not have otherwise ever realised.
Its like self introspection on steroids.

A wise man once said that achieving a state of enlightenment while hidden away in the mountains, secluded from the world, is relatively easy.
But to achieve that same state right here in society, dealing with the pressures of day to day living, is a much more challenging endeavour.

I have found martial arts also follow this principle.
A certain level of awareness and ability can be achieved through kata, kihon, and regular dojo practice.
But to display that same self control and inner harmony while being attacked by someone who truely means to hurt, you is a whole new level of
ability.
Thats what I am striving to acheive. I'm nowhere near that level yet, but I know guys who are, and when you see them in action it really is something awesome. Real Budo!

So for me being a fighter and a martial artist is intertwined.

By the way, great thread!

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

i totally agree with kudoist. if one's goal is to become the best fighter possible, he or she automatically becomes a better martial artist. the discipline, focus, and determination that it takes to become a champion is without a doubt a path to becoming a better martial artist.

[sandman]

That's a very interesting point of view Kudoist - it makes a lot of sense. I guess when I hear the term "fighter" I automatically think of the guys you see on UFC and professional boxing and so on - most of whom are always talking crap and looking very shallow. Its hard to give those guys credit for being introspective or spiritual. I guess I have to open up my definition of "fighter" a little bit... And I totally agree that fighting is an essential part of the "true" martial arts experience. I can still totally respect folks who study martial arts who don't do knock-down fighting - its not for everybody. But I think not incorporating some degree of good hard contact in your martial arts training, you don't get the full on experience. You can still grow as a person and as a martial artists without it, but not to the same degree. That's just my opinion....

[tmd]

I do not agree that anyone can be a great fighter it takes an immense amount of dedication and hard, very hard work but I also don't see how it's an automatic transition to martial artist from fighter, you can be a great fighter and an ass, ergo not a martial artist, although that said I have heard many many stories of people that you would think of as great martial artist who on a personal level were bullies, vindictive sobs or just consumed with the dash for cash as well as all other such human frailties so what do I know.

I know how I feel about it and I feel to be a great martial artist you need: fighting ability, personal integrity, to be humble, respectful, knowledgeable about your art (and others), to be forever improving and never still.

Does a great fighter have all these? Some of them yes, all? Rarely. Does someone who studies martial arts? ; same answer.

[Ziyaad]

I choosed 'Im a fighter'. I wanted to know what sosai oyama would say.

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by tmd

although that said I have heard many many stories of people that you would think of as great martial artist who on a personal level were bullies, vindictive sobs or just consumed with the dash for cash as well as all other such human frailties so what do I know.

people can masquerade as anything they want. they can even trick a great number of people into believing them in spite of how false they really are.

Originally Posted by Ziyaad

I choosed 'Im a fighter'. I wanted to know what sosai oyama would say.

he would probably come up with some really philosophical answer off the top of his head that doesnt specifically fit into 1 of 4 poll choices.

[shodan88]

Great fighter can be trained or trained themselves for 365days,but "great" martial artist can not.It takes longer than anybody could imagine.Why?Again,it's because the philosophy.For example,which I referred to some comments about "ranks",that to reach black belt will take at least 4 years and up.While great fighter does not even have to belong to any organization.As long as they trained themselves very hard,they can joined any open tournament aroud the world.

[powerof0ne]

I really don't know how to answer this and it is a damn good question. Has really got me thinking, and I can't come up with a decisive answer. I suppose, I try to be both, but I generally focus on martial arts and techniques that I feel would work in a fight. I'm not so sure if one automatically makes you the other. I suppose that depends on the person and their journey.

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

by being a great fighter, one has to make sacrifices. one has to be self motivated and develop a higher degree of self confidence (and some may see it as ego, which it is because to be the best, one has to believe that he or she is). one has to train more, eat right, rest, and perfect his/her skills more than the average student. sure the student who wants to be a better martial artist will be committed too. i like to swim, so i could say i'm a good swimmer. but to compare my dedication to swimming to michael phelp's, there's no comparison. the dedication to training and to perfecting and mastering one's craft is on another level.

[seienchin]

Was Mike Tyson a great fighter? Absolutely. Great martial artist? I think not. depends on how you define "martial artist" doesn't it?

My response to this question stems from individuals I know of and that I have had the misfortune to know personally - who are great fighters but really nasty pieces of work in all other regards of their humanity. Violent, bullying thugs who happen to do well in the fight ring.

I know that they are the exception, and I am absolutely not bad-mouthing one type of fighting over another. I have known individuals like those from with and outside Kyokushin.

so for my money, just being the guy who wins the tournament does not make you a great martial artists. The latter is much more about inner qualities, which co-incidentially make you a better fighter, but perhaps not the tournament winner.

And before people dismiss my words as a person who is just sour about having never won a tournament - I've won loads. The result in a tournament is about who turns up to fight, and about who has the best draw, and the best luck. It is, of course also about preparation, determination, and heaven forbid, refereeing!!! I would NEVER presume to claim I am a better "martial artist" than a person I beat in a tournament. In fact, I don't believe that term should ever be used in a comparison with another individual. It sort of goes against the whole ethos. The only time "better martial artist" should be used (IMHO) is in describing ones own personal journey.

[BiiggDDD]

Wazz Uppp,

The way I see it is like this. In Karate itself there are different aspects an individual can master. So its between Kata, Kihon or Kumite. Some go for katas, others kihon, and then majority ( I believe) do kumite. While a few just love all of them.

A person who just participates in Kumite and doesn't care about the other 2 aspects really is just a fighter. To describe this a fighter is a fighter we like challenges, we like getting "owned" and returning the favor, we love the whole full contact aspect and the punches/kicks that we throw and get hit back with, above all we love to have that rush of adrenaline and animal instinct that kicks in. We learn from our mistakes and try to better our selves.

Does this make a true "Martial Artists"? I would have to say No. Why? Because we are in for it just for the combat, yes learning the way to properly execute the moves is important but that's the only thing we pay attention to and really try to master and perfect so we can use it. So does being a BadAss in fighting make you a martial artists? No, it just proves to others you have a hell of alot of fight in you.

To me True "Martial Artists" are people who have dedicated their whole lives and dreams, goals, and determinations to understanding the whole aspect and picture of the martial art(s) they are doing. To me its someone who goes over the limit of the tournament practitioner over the normal student. It's that one student that stays quiet and follows everything thats told, doesn't start any problems and work on everything he was taught that day to better improve himself in that aspect and to understand why this and not that. Its the person who shows respect towards everyone even though if hes not shown respect back by others. A real martial artists doesn't need pretty metals or trophy's to prove himself all he needs is his knowledge of the art and be always alert and ready for the unexpected, he's always there to constantly learn and help others out in their troubles and just basically one nice guy everyone wants to hang out with and know.

I know this might sound "cheesy" or not make any sense. Either its because Its 12am at night for me right now and im really sleepy or I need to start reading some English books and get hooked on phonics so I can fix my writing and grammer....grrr -.-

But that's just the way I see, I may have missed a few key points but I can't seem to think of any, sense im more then 3/4 alseep. Oh and if I refer to male point of view, sorry everyone you can just use the himself, him, he-> to they or their or herself, she.


Peace Out

[MUX]

OSU! I am MUX i hv recently joined this amazing site. I started kyokushin and i fell in love with it. I practice it religiously. Currently i am a blue belt. Hope u guys wud also help me in this game. cz i m also having a lot of confusions relating to different topics. COMING TO TOPIC i wud say it wud be better to be a MARTIAL ARTISTS cz a fighter can only FIGHT AND FIGHT AND FIGHT, However in kyokushin we have alot more than just beating the hell outa each other... DONT WE?

[seienchin]

Welcome Mux! Don't forget to go to the introductions forum, and start a thread introducing yourself. That way we can all welcome you properly.

And yes, I am with you. there is more to it than the biff.

[Aunty Ichigeki]

Originally Posted by Kudoist

I have found competition to be a very spiritual path, in the sense that you cannot hold on to any self dellusions as a fighter.
Any weakness that you dont address will be exposed when you get in that ring for all to see. You have to look hard at yourself and face up to things that you may not have otherwise ever realised.
Its like self introspection on steroids.
...
But to display that same self control and inner harmony while being attacked by someone who truely means to hurt, you is a whole new level of
ability.
Thats what I am striving to acheive. I'm nowhere near that level yet, but I know guys who are, and when you see them in action it really is something awesome. Real Budo!

So for me being a fighter and a martial artist is intertwined.

I so agree Kudoist. I gave you some rep for that one! Phew! You guys are lucky. I got to 4 paragraphs on this & decided to spare you & copy/paste it for my nidan essay instead - ha ha!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

The more I think about this the more I think there's three levels;

Martial Artist, Combat Athlete and Fighter.

Martial Artists seek the challenge of self-mastery rather than public displays of ability. This is an almost spiritual undertaking and the concept is sadly often lost on the play station generation!

Combat Athlete's prefer to challenge themselves against others, and may gear their training towards specific events. Nothing wrong with that, but I find these more likely to pay lip service to basic training and not always be dedicated to polishing techniques outside their immediate needs.

Fighters just want to be ready to smash anyone who threatens them or their loved ones, and train to the point they can 'go' at any time. These types tend to train more regularly despite injuries and all other distractions, and to have a more resolute approach to hardship.

These three objectives are not mutually exclusive, but support each other depending on factors like age, past experiences and general upbringing. All three types can train quite happily alongside each other, as their needs and aspirations vary by degree not by design, but as an Instructor I freely admit I gear my training more towards the fighters as they carry the session with their spirit and committment.

Gary

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

well said G.

[sonofkanga]

Well GJEChamberlain put it so well that for me he has summed up the whole thread.
Fighter as a perspective on life.
For me if you fight hard enough for a long time you become a martial artist.
Fighting is not about the tournament, it is all about attitude.

More rep points for big G.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Fighters just want to be ready to smash anyone who threatens them or their loved ones, and train to the point they can 'go' at any time.

Gary

Garry - how would you categorise those who just want to be ready to smash anyone....any time....any reason? forget about threats. People who gravitate to training because of some type of fairly nasty personality disorder, and unfortunately find schools who don't weed them out. Sometimes, these people really can fight very, very well....it is scary.