Fighter or Martial Artist?

[Gheorgei]

i would dearly love to be a Martial artist, but i fear i am just a fighter!!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Seienchin,

I'm not talking about taking people with psychopathic tendancies and making them more efficient bullies. In most cases such people lack the discipline required to learn the skills, as picking up weapons to assault people comes easier. In general I would expect anyone who uses training for the wrong reasons to expose themselves before they damage others. I'm using the term 'fighters' here to describe those with a practical approach and serious mindset in training.

By this I mean some people want to train solely for fighting and self-protection efficiency, not belts, not trophies, not even for the satisfaction that comes from competency in technical skills. Such people, in my experience are more serious about making it work and pressure testing themselves so they can handle combat, should it ever come their way. This doesn't mean they seek it or cause trouble, just that for personal reasons they want to be able to flick the switch if required. That's what I mean by 'go' at any time, not a ticking bomb who shouldn't be allowed out unsupervised.

Students in the past with this objective have included nurses and taxi drivers that work unsociable hours and deal with idiots on a daily basis. Police officers, emergency workers and even doormen may have to react quickly to protect themselves or others in dangerous situations, so for some the classic ritual associated with martial arts or the rules of tournaments are just not what they seek. My comment refers to these, who simply want to learn to fight when confrontation is unavoidable. Of course they will first try to avoid it with conflict resolution, bluff, or a 100 yard sprint! Their reasons for only wanting realistic training are their own. I trained a rape victim once who simply wanted to give herself better odds if ever attacked again, and her discipline and devotion to training was second to none.

Maybe such students train well because rather than having a vague expectation of what Martial Arts will add to their lives, they have a clear objective of what they need and are highly motivated to achieve it. I consider such people 'real' fighters, as they seek that which works, and take themselves out of their comfort zone to forge the courage and determination to handle high pressure situations. I am more than happy to train them alongside the Martial Artists and the Combat Athletes, especially those who never step outside their comfort zone, as their more serious approach often helps to inspire the rest.

This debate between the relative merits of Budo and Bugei is over a hundered years old. Purists were horrified when Martial Arts were taught for health, to foreigners, for competition etc. In fact it's hard to think of any innovations that haven't met resistance. Do or Gei is a question of emphasis and personal goals, although I can't help thinking the Combat Athletes somehow get less of either.

Gary

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Gheorgei

i would dearly love to be a Martial artist, but i fear i am just a fighter!!

It does not stop you from being or aspiring to be a martial artist one does not limit the other it was never a black or white question more yin yang than that.

[shinobijesus]

GJE, when you describe the term fighter it seems like a lot of your points hit home or describe me in some way. however i disagree wholeheartedly with the term fighter. i feel that those incredibly dedicated people you talk about are actually the martial artists.

it seems like your description makes the martial artist seem like a yoga practicioner and the fighter seems like a martial artist. the only point i concur on is the combat athlete.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Shinobijesus,

Well it's up to the individual to emphasise whatever part of training they wish - not for me to label anyone.

Loosely, I regard martial artists as being more interested in technical competency. Some get very high grades but fail to find tournament success, but this is not their main focus anyway so it matters not.
Combat athletes are more focused on competition, some being superb sportmen(women) and incredibly gifted. Their choice of fighting style though may have limited practical use outside the well regulated arena.
Fighters I see as those more interested in making it work for real.

This doesn't mean I'm pouring scorn on any of the three or holding any up as a perfect example to the others. All categories have uses and very blurred edges. Peoples values and needs overlap and change over the years. Some are happy with just one of the three. (i.e. they may just want SP but show no interest in rank or tournaments) Many achieve two out of the three, but few are really strong in all three areas simultaneously - they're special.

I do feel it's the instructors job to find out what the students really want though and help them to achieve it, rather than just dishing up the same session to all and trying to chase all things at the same time.

Gary

[sandman]

So it seems to me that there are really many different possible definitions of the terms "fighter" and "martial artist", and my own answer to the original question really depends a lot on how I define the terms in the first place. I think none of the definitions are wrong - its all a matter of interpretation. GJEChamberlain's definition of a fighter is one who trains for self defense and who is totally dedicated to learning how to protect themselves and their families. Others have defined a fighter as a combat athlete who trains diligently and makes great sacrifice to become a top contender in their chosen sport. Both of these definitions have a noble, positive connotation and are highly worthy aspirations. But others have defined a fighter as someone who just likes to go out and pick fights. Its easy to see how you'd get a completely different answer depending on how one defines that term.... I have to admit that my original definition of the term "fighter" was somewhat negative - after reading all these posts, I've changed my view. However I still see myself as more of a martial artist, with knock-down fighting and self defense training being very large and important parts of the art as a whole.

[tmd]

The question is one of personal view I personally have stated what I see as the differential others see it differently others just have to go on adding new catagoriies...(joke)

I am not telling you what to think by my answers I am just providing my opinion - anyone who says a fighter is this and a martial artist is that is wrong (even if it's me) all we can say for certain is I think a fighter is X and a martial artist is Y but some as Gary rightly stats are XY and this creates an additional strength to this individual.

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

All categories have uses and very blurred edges. Peoples values and needs overlap and change over the years.

very true.

[Kriegmaschine]

I'd say I'm definately a fighter.
I'm only really happy when learning techniques doing padwork, sparring, fitness and fighting in tournaments.
I don't really care that much for kata, ida geiko and most of the other stuff required to advance in belt rank to be honest it bores me silly and I just do it because it beats standing around doing nothing by a small margin , I'm seriously considering not bothering to go to anymore gradings.

[walshy]

Originally Posted by Kriegmaschine

I'd say I'm definately a fighter.
I'm only really happy when learning techniques doing padwork, sparring, fitness and fighting in tournaments.
I don't really care that much for kata, ida geiko and most of the other stuff required to advance in belt rank to be honest it bores me silly and I just do it because it beats standing around doing nothing by a small margin , I'm seriously considering not bothering to go to anymore gradings.

I think thats a shame. In my opinion it is good to learn all aspects of your style, otherwise you may as well just go to a kickboxing gym. I feel that there is far more to karate than just fighting and personally i will endevour to learn and experience as much as is possible within it.
As I have only been training a short amount of time I don't think I can classify myself as a fighter or martial artist, at the moment i aspire just to be a martial artist(dont think i'll ever be a great martial artist though)

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Kriegmaschine

I'd say I'm definately a fighter.
I'm only really happy when learning techniques doing padwork, sparring, fitness and fighting in tournaments.
I don't really care that much for kata, ida geiko and most of the other stuff required to advance in belt rank to be honest it bores me silly and I just do it because it beats standing around doing nothing by a small margin , I'm seriously considering not bothering to go to anymore gradings.

I know how you feel, KriegMaschine. Many times over the years I questioned the purpose of anything not directly related to Kumite. I have found use, purpose and validity to most of the Kihon, Kata etc. Just depends on how you train them.

Osu!

[Kriegmaschine]

Originally Posted by walshy

I think thats a shame. In my opinion it is good to learn all aspects of your style

I'm learning all the aspects thats why I'm doing it, I just find the areas I mentioned of very little interest to me.