Notes for confused Westerners

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

1) Using the shower after training.

I trained at the Kyokushin Honbu in April / May 1989. It was regularly very very hot and humid, so we were sweating heavily before training even started. After an exhausting two hour class of endless Ke-Age's and then cleaning the dojo, I was sweating like a racehorse with a two hour journey to come on a densely packed commuter train.

"Right" I thought "Best grab a shower"

I had checked them out before training. Not particularly plush but what the hell. I ran downstairs, stripped off, and jumped in happily with my shower gel, singing in my best karaoke voice.

After a few minutes I was a bit confused. Funny. No-one else bothering? There'd been several training as sweaty as me. I started to wonder if Japanese manners extended into personal hygene.

An anxious face peered round the curtain. One of the junior Uchi-Deshi had been sent to reconnoitre. He assessed the situation and retreated back behind the curtain amidst whispered voices. I carried on happily, laughing as the suds squelched about, and even considered peeing down the drain in the noble British Fire Service tradition, until I heard the sound of raised voices.

The same little face appeared. "Sensei Gary-san. You must come please" he pleaded. I flung back the curtain and was amazed at what I saw. The sempai who had taken the class was not best pleased. He stood, naked except for shower shoes and a delicately positioned towel at the head of a queue of naked karate-ka.

"Sumimasen" was all I could manage as I squelched past dripping everywhere. One of the Uchi-Deshi fell to the floor and started drying my splash marks with his own towel (how bizzare is that) while the sempai slunk into the shower. A few minutes later he re-appeared, perfectly groomed and dry BEFORE he come out, and the next in line walked in. This happened one at a time while I got dressed, with the lowest grade going last until they'd all washed up.

As a man used to communal showers after fires and or Rugby matches at work this seemed very strange, especially as the showers were big enough for about 6 people to shower at a time. No flicking bare arses with a towel or farting into suds here to get everyone laughing, just perfect well mannered order. I suddenly realised how uncouth I was compared to this well ordered group!

Just a small example of the cultural differences to expect if you choose to train in Japan. More to follow if anyone's interested.

Gary

[kakatootoshi]

Dear GJEChamberlain,
Good story. Reputation added.

OSU!

[tmd]

Nice story and Osu! Keep them coming. Out of curiousity what grade were you at the time? I thought you were about 3rd Dan when you went over to Japan, you called the guy a Sempai so even with correct grade protocal you had the right to shower first surely Not the point of the story I know but was it because you were a gaijin that your rank was not considered a factor in the showering rights?

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! tmd,

I haven't a clue to be honest! I was third Dan but regularly training in classes taught by third year Uchi-Deshi. I asked Matsui what I should call him. Sensei? Shihan? His response was "I don't know - it's different in Japan. Maybe just sempai" On that basis I thought if it's good enough for him, I'll just call anyone who looks local and wears a Black belt sempai and I wont go far wrong. (Despite the fact half never troubled a razor) They were more confused about how to treat me, and I'll write about sempai / kohai and the dojo food chain later.

Gary

[tmd]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

I asked Matsui what I should call him. Sensei? Shihan? His response was "I don't know - it's different in Japan."

I think this kinda answers my point - oh no it's not! The whole point of rank in a style is surely that it's universal (within the code at least) If a Canadian, Australian American, Japanese or even Scottish 3rd Dan came to our Dojo they would be treated as one.

[vapor]

I think what was being referenced is the fact that in Japan the titles, especially Shihan are often not attached to someones name everytime that you address them.

You get to drop nouns and pronouns out of sentences quite a bit, so, that is where I see the difference.

In the Asakusa dojo...it was pretty much just Sempai (without the family name) for everyone "above" you---unless it was something official, or a ceremony, etc.

vapor

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! tmd,

This is long before he took over IKO1 and I think he was 4th Dan at the time, so I suppose technically he was my sempai, in the sense of being my senior.

There was no point being sniffy about rank or status, I was just happy to be there as it had been a long term dream to train under Sosai Oyama. I would have happily stuck a white belt on if that was required, but as for mopping up someone else's bubbles, forget it!

Gary

[tmd]

Complete agree and I'm jealous almost to the point envy at you having had such an amazing experience I'm just interested in if you felt your grade was treated less er, seriously just coz it was a non Japanese earned one?

Edited coz of Vapors post which appeared while I was typing - OH I SEEEEE!!!!

[Lucy]

Great story Gary! Very amusing. The British always seem to have a way of 'putting your foot in it' when it comes to different countries/cultures and their ways.

[jcbel]

Great story - so how did you find seniority in terms of age?

I've heard in Japan (as in most asian cultures) there is great respect for elders, regardless of rank.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

2) Sempai / Kohai

(Note: These are my own take on things and not presented as a definitive guide)

As I was 33 when I went to Japan, this presented some unique challenges for the people I trained with. Zama dojo was a happy well run dojo. Sensei Tatsuo Nakamura ran it with superb technical teaching and the place positively buzzed with enthusiasm. Training there remains one of my best Kyokushin karate experiences. Everyone there took me under their wing, and proved to be very helpful. Sadly, the same could not be said for Honbu.

First thing I noticed was a genuine confusion with the Uchi-Deshi, who when they weren't training flitted around doing jobs from laundry to guarding the entrance. Those not gainfully employed seemed forever in the local park hitting pads, and their general existence seemed quite devoid of fun. I rarely saw them smiling - they took themselves very seriously.

Sensei Nakamura had kindly taken me to Honbu the first time to show me which trains to catch, so they knew who I was and my grade. This made life confusing for them. How should they treat me? I was a foreigner, so natural politeness might lead them to be helpful (not much of that) I was a higher grade so one might expect a little deference (none of that) I was older than all of them, so in a heirarchy that respects age and alies it to experience I should have come top (no - no deal there either)

The eventual compromise was spooky. No-one corrected me, they just watched everything I did. If I put my shoes in the wrong place, six pairs of eyes noticed. They waited until I walked away then the lowest ranked moved my shoes to the right position. If I didn't use indoor shoes, they watched me walk all the way down the stairs in my socks until I reached the changing rooms then the lowest rank again quietly put some slippers next to me.

In my dojo, new members or visitors from other styles are shown the changing rooms etc and given cheerful greetings and conversation by the established members. Not there. Everything I did 'wrong' was quietly corrected without explanation after the event. I learnt by default.

On to the dojo. The first class I attended was due to start. The nominated Uchi-Deshi performed the Taiko, which really got my heart racing. I waited for Sosai to appear ....

Nothing.

The Uchi-Deshi whispered among themselves until one stepped up. He called the class to order. I went to line up at the front right hand side, but they were having none of it. As a Sensei - I trained at the front. Still facing forwards but detached from the normal line. They gently put me into position and carried on as if I wasn't there. No problem with that, the class structure was familiar so I got on with things, but at the same time I felt a sense of detachment from the group. No-one was rude, but I was just not let into the inner circle.

When Sosai arrived the whole atmosphere changed. I speak as I find here and can only describe Sosai as very helpful. We spent a lot of time doing Pinan Sono Go in Ura, and I felt like the ugly duckling as everyone else moved very well and I struggled to keep up. No problem. The class was slowed, and each movement explained, but not the best start. If I wanted their respect keeping up would have been better.

I have already described showering after training so I'll move on.

The next time I trained I took a Japanese to English dictionary, and set of early with the express intention of collaring an Uchi-Deshi and going through the procedures. When to say Osu! (about 15 required before training at various places) where to put shoes etc etc. This being happily done I waited for a while in the changing rooms. These were crowded with lockers and benches, with a small space left for bag work and weight training. The floor was concrete. After a while a face came in. I recognised him from magazines but couldn't remember his name. I stood up and said Osu! He just gazed in my direction and totally ignored me.

After a while a few lower grades came in, saw him, bowed deeply and quietly got changed. Their hero had by now changed into Gi bottoms, belt (2nd Dan) and T shirt and was pounding the bag, stopping occasionally to check himself in the mirror. The low grades stood around like rabbits in a hutch with a fox in the middle deciding who gets eaten first. He made his choice - called one over - glanced at me, taking in my belt (sorry mate, more gold bars) as if to say, "watch this" and proceeded to practise his combinations on him, usually ending with a sweep onto the concrete floor.

I was amazed and horrified in equal measure. Hearing the sickening thud as this kid hit the deck was unpleasant enough, but his glancing across made the whole thing more evil. After a few goes I stood up from the bench and took a step closer. He looked, and lined up the kid again. "Yame" I said quietly. He sneered and stepped back. The kid came over to him, bowed deeply and thanked him for the practise. (?)

I was seething inside. Several posts on this board have talked about combat morality, but this wasn't combat. It was worse than public school bullying. Done by a sempai to a kid who had no right of reply. We headed upstairs as training was about to start. This was a general class so I was hoping we would spar at the end of it. I have no doubt this sempai would have torn me a new arse under conventional rules so I decided if it came to it to use doorwork rules instead. What's the difference? Hit first and then be nice afterwards, not be polite first, take a beating, and be grateful as this poor lad downstairs had done. I reasoned he'd probably had too much of the latter recently so thought getting a few in and letting him know I was well 'up fer it' was in fact my best chance of staying upright. The class over-ran, with no sparring. He glanced across as he stalked out. Nice chap.

That was my worst experience in Honbu. Not because I was physically hurt. All my training experiences were positive, but this little demonstration of sempai / kohai attitude made me determined to never treat my juniors that way. Was this an isolated incident? Was it merely for my benefit to show me who's top of the food chain? I would like to think so, but others have told me similar stories. I never saw that particular 'sempai' again, so this never re-occured, at least not with me present. Here lies a huge cultural difference. I finally began to understand the Sempai / Kohai relationship is different in different parts of the world. In England the sempai are there show an example and to assist the lower grades. In Japan it seemed the lower grades are simply there to serve the sempai. Am I right in this? I don't know but can only speak as I saw.

Gary

[tmd]

Osu! Gary - When does the book come out You have too many great stories and insights not to publish.

I have heard this before and not just in Kyokushin, I'm sure in comes up in my favorite book 'Angry White Pajamas' - but feel the the only comments should come from those with first hand experience.

[Nix]

Gary,

As tmd, I enjoy reading your stories and your insight on training in Japan back in the days. I've never personally experienced this random violence in dojo, but I am not unfamiliar to... harsher treatment on students who have stepped out of the line. For example, one student (fairly new at the time) had acted very disrespectful at a party, and the following week a few high-ranking mudansha attended the last 20 minutes of the beginner class - which just happened to be kumite. This incident was of course not openly encouraged by the yudansha, but rather conveniently ignored - noone was punished, and the student has been as gentle as a mouse ever since. Lex talionis still thrives in the dojo, it is just subtle.

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu! Gary,

I wouldn't say that no respect was given to you for your age, rank or position, but rather they were even more out of their depth than you were. Much like anyone when an alien lands in their yard, they know there has to be a protocol, but no one has sent them the flyer.

The Japanese are a very homogeneous nation/ society, and there are serious repercussions for overstepping certain boundaries. The thought of correcting a senior would probably never even enter their minds. Much like I hope my grandchildren treat me one day, they'll let me make my mistakes, and clean up afterwards.

Bullying is another issue altogether. I've seen it, and experienced it to some small extent. I agree with you. Hit hard, and hit first.

Osu!

[smoothsake]

Gary,

I think you touched on many different aspects of the Japanese psyche that are unspecific to Kyokushin and martial arts in general. I hate to generalize, but your slippers incident is more a sense, as Dent put it, out of deep respect to you that it would be impossible for them to correct you as they would another Japanese. They cut gaijin a considerable amount of slack and know that you don't understand their protocols. As far as the class goes, there is a very important sense of in-circle and out-circle in Japan. Being a foreigner, you are usually put in a out-circle and you may feel a bit separated. They do this to each other so by no means is this racism. It is just the way the Japanese (and many East Asians) clique off with those of similar interests, backgrounds, etc. Regarding the senpai / kohai relationship... well that is a difficult nut to crack. It is deeply rooted in the Japanese culture and it begins at a very young age. The senpai are the rulers of the universe and the kohai are the ones that pick up the scraps, but it is a relationship where the senpai does nurture the kohai - with understanding and discipline. No one is at the top of the food chain; meaning everyone answers to someone so it isn't unfair. Very hard to explain and even being Nikkei (of Japanese descent) I don't get it. You really have to be born and raised there to understand it.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! tmd,

I've no plans to publish anything, but I'm putting together a few (about 20) short stories about my training experiences. It'll be free to download for my students, for others a donation to a nominated charity. That's enough advertising!

Nix,

This happens all over. As I've wrote on a different thread, my own original dojo was pretty violent at times. There's often a dark side, and Kyokushin / Ashihara / Enshin are certainly not the worst. A local Aikido dojo where I grew up had a bullying sempai that delighted in applying wrist and elbow pressure until they broke. That is until an ex-boxer started training and broke his nose ........

Dent,

You're right, it's so completely different to Western values, it's hard to take the snapshot we see in the dojo into the broader concept. I'm sure a lot of what westerners do seems bizzare to! (Come to think of it, getting ratted every Saturday and having fights outside kebab shops is no better, in fact far worse. At least people in a dojo are there from choice)

Smoothsake,

I understand your point. This is a very deep cultural thing, which takes a lifetime to understand. Kancho Ninomiya's Honbu dojo in Denver is very traditional, but I never saw anyone abused as described above in the Kyokushin Honbu. The sempai are very helpful to everyone who tries. Maybe that's the right blend. The 'sempai' in the Tokyo changing room might have been expelled the very next day (hence me never bumping into him again) so perhaps should not be taken as a definitive example.

The relationship I noticed seemed similar in many ways to the Knight / Squire arrangement in medieval Europe. Young men sought famous Knights for the privilege of learning from them. They expected no favours, indeed the harsher their life the better it prepared them for the Tourney or being on campaign. Beatings were common, even death, but they kept focused on the prize, in this case being Knighted and receiving recognition for their skill and courage. Maybe we're not so different after all, except that in the west suffering a bit is now replaced in most places by more 'scientific' training methods, and people expect their mentor / aspirant interaction to be a lot safer.

PS - Best put this into context: 99% of the Japanese people I have met and trained with have been great. Warm, friendly and loyal once you get to know them. Come to think of it that's a far higher percentage than the English ones!

Gary

[tmd]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu! tmd,

PS - Best put this into context: 99% of the Japanese people I have met and trained with have been great. Warm, friendly and loyal once you get to know them. Come to think of it that's a far higher percentage than the English ones!

Gary

Was just thinking the same thing