A good analogy about the benefits of studying kata....

[Martin H]

learning the basics, and making sure continue to practice the basics so that we dont forget it, is one thing. Good basics is essential for learning the advanced.
Thinking that the basics is everything there is, is another thing entirely.

Yes. Sosai insisted that we should continue to train the taikyoku, even if it is the first kata we learn. But he did include more advanced katas at higher level, and he did it for a reason. Both include them in the Syllabus and placing them at a more advanced grade.
If all that was needed was the taikyoku serie, he would not have needed to do that.

[Spirit]

That said, then why did he drop advaced kata???
Kata is really not advanced, it is merely continuation of your training. One cannot learn all things at the same time or in a short time frame so they deem them advaced because they are in a later cycle of the learning process.

I'm glad we could have this discussion. but it is time to close it.
It is eveident that we have two different outlooks and ideaologies, theories about kata and kyokushin, possible do to the way we learned or when we learned, since Kyokushin has made so many changes over the past 50 years.

Though I feel that I'm on the right path, I would not say that you are not also on the correct path as well.
Train well...

[Hton]

For fear of stirring the waters that have settled i heard a story once that Sosai took 2 groups of beginners and trained one in just kumite and one in just kata. being Sosai they trained really hard. After some time he brought them together and made them fight, the kata group won more often.This would then show that a deep understanding of kata and bunkai give you more skills to bring to the kumite. More and more i think that the harder stuff was put at the beginning of the syllabus so that you get more time to practice it (but syllabus' arent carved in stone).
Evidently Brian Fitkin once gave a demo at the British Open which consisted of Taikyoku sono ichi sub 10 seconds,no overbalancing ,no pauses-a very polished mirror!

[Hton]

just heard about an Ian Abernathy course in Nottingham (UK) on April29 '07 aimed at Kyokushin kata evidently,to find out more send me a mesage and i will give contact details(cant post links yet)

[sokaiya]

Isn't Kata essentially useless for a Kyokushin practitioner? We can't even use the most essential parts of Kata in competition.

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by sokaiya

Isn't Kata essentially useless for a Kyokushin practitioner? We can't even use the most essential parts of Kata in competition.

Kata is not, and never was, intended to teach competition fighting (or any type of pre-agreed one to one "dueling" situation with a trained martialartist). It is intended for self defense situatons. To deal with the bully in the pub que who think you made a pass at his girlfriend and try to press us up against the wall and teach us a lesson. That is the purpose that Ian shows us in the kata bunkai he teches. Not the pretty pre-agreed formal bunkai that clearly would never work in real life, that we are used to seeing. Ians Bunkai are quick, dirty and unpleasant for the receipient.
But since we are not taught how to use kata movements on even the most basic realistic level bunkai, you are right -kata is useless. But that is not the fault of kata itself.
If I lived in UK I would be at the seminar without hesitation.

Please try to have someone film it.

[Martin H]

Actually. Keep an eye on the media section. I may just post a few clips of Ians work as a teaser when I get home from work (in all too many hours).
To show how bunkai should look.

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums...ead.php?t=2465

[Spirit]

Kata is not to teach us self defense !!!!

[Zanshin]

It was my understanding (correct me if Im wrong) that kata were created as mnenomic devices to help students remember techniques. Also from what I have read, there werent that many kata originally. Kata is helpful in training because it forces ina set form to execute predetermined techniques. The purpose of this(in my opinion) is to give us a muscle memory that if we ever need a technique it would be hard wired into us.

I find kata to be very useful especially the bunkai that can be learned even from one kata. I agree what what most are saying also, kata like taikyoku and pinan form the "foundation" of your kata training. Once your foundation is strong the other advanced kata are sturdy on your foundation.

[vietchau]

I probably don't have enough experience ( 6years of shotokan ) to contribute to this topic. But for me, kata is always what represents karate the best i.e. striving for perfection. taikyoku is the best kata forever. It is the most simple in term of techniques, yet you can never reach perfection. It reminds me that there is no end goal in karate. When I reached shodan, I began to refuse to learn any more advanced katas. Because everytime I do taikyoku I find there is something wrong with my basics, and being a blackbelt that really bugs me.

[Aunty Ichigeki]

I think kata add elements of physical training to the system that you wouldn't otherwise get. When we perform deep stances & turns & coordinate our arms & legs in ways we might find counter-intuitive (ie. we'd never do them otherwise) we're training our small muscles that often get forgotten and we're getting comfortable striking from less obvious positions and in directions that we wouldn't do otherwise. I observe the big difference between an advanced student and a beginner is the level of comfort and physical strength/balance they have reacting in all physical situations. They react with speed and efficiency regardless what direction they're attacked from & intuitively assume stances that will give them balance and a good base for defence/attack. I believe this comes from kata training, not from hitting a bag or sparring (because we revert to what we feel comfortable with when we fight).

I noticed when I studied some Gracie self defence (which is generally accepted as removed from 'traditional' training) that a lot of it draws on elements of kata I've learned at Kyokushin (in fact it FINALLY made the kata make sense!!!). Uncle did some training with a Malaysian chap who teaches knife fighting to the NZ Police (for defence) & he observed the same thing... the stuff this guy 'picked up off the street in Malaysia' was intuitive to Uncle & he was surprised to find links to kata moves... for both of us the moves included small weird hand movements that would be the first moves a non-traditionalist would ditch! I can't help noticing too that the best BJJ fighters I know have often done decades of standup. It makes me laugh they keep saying they wasted all those years until they found BJJ because I doubt they'd find BJJ so intuitive without the decades they spent doing traditional training.

[seienchin]

Aunty - great post.
I agree completely about the hidden benefits. Kata and Kihon benefits kind of sneak up on you.
When I trained at kyu grade, weapons were not a part of our syllabus at all. Not even at yudansha levels. If we were at all interested, we had to go to other styles to learn.

I did a few seminars, before deciding that I wasn't missing a great deal, but what I found was that after years and years of training without weapons, the only choice available to me was to make the weapon an extension of my body, and to use all the moves I already had. And it seemed to work. (With obvious modifications to avoid slicing off one's own ears..).

I also really liked your comment about learning to strike effectively from novel positions and angles.

I haven't known a great number of world-class tournament fighters - only 5 or six. Yet every single one of these had brilliant kata, and worked on them. It could just be that athletic ability makes you good at both, but I do wonder if kata helps in the ways you mentioned.

[blackshield]

spirit: firstly I must say that you are wrong when you claimed that no other style but karate has kata. almost all chinese styles have forms, as do many other asian systems, as well as classical 'budo' systems such as jujitsu - which were even contained (and still are in some schools) in judo.

secondly - kata is meant to teach you principles of fighting, from which certain bunkai can be drawn. if you train the kata in this way, then they have a very direct influence on your fighting ability, and on self-defence application.

thirdly - the order, and significance that is placed upon particular kata in kyokushin is not the order and importance that was placed upon them in the styles from which they came. e.g. in goju ryu - the order starting order is geki sai dai - saifa - seiunchin - the kata are ordered in this way because it presents a natural progression from one set of fighting principles to the next - in a progressive closing of range from the kyokushin style 'attack and smash' of geki sai dai - to the jujitsu style grappling methods in seiunchin. Kyokushin is based upon the fighting principles of one man - as such he will place emphasis on kata which he deems more influential on his style.... once you move beyond this (as i believe all people have to do eventually) and find your own way, you have to be able to explore the fighting principles contained within other kata - this is why they are still contained within the system and not disregarded completely - and it is also why they are placed later on in the path - so that once you get to them, you are ready to explore them

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by blackshield

spirit: firstly I must say that you are wrong when you claimed that no other style but karate has kata. almost all Chinese styles have forms, as do many other asian systems, as well as classical 'budo' systems such as jujitsu - which were even contained (and still are in some schools) in judo.
Being general in a statement... Karate M/A etc all the same different cultures!?!

secondly - kata is meant to teach you principles of fighting, from which certain bunkai can be drawn. if you train the kata in this way, then they have a very direct influence on your fighting ability, and on self-defence application.

Yes that is true, but show me a Kata that uses the actual moves of the bunkai, and I'll show you something you don't know yet...


thirdly - the order, and significance that is placed upon particular kata in kyokushin is not the order and importance that was placed upon them in the styles from which they came. e.g. in goju ryu - the order starting order is geki sai dai - saifa - seiunchin - the kata are ordered in this way because it presents a natural progression from one set of fighting principles to the next - in a progressive closing of range from the kyokushin style 'attack and smash' of geki sai dai - to the jujitsu style grappling methods in seiunchin. Kyokushin is based upon the fighting principles of one man - as such he will place emphasis on kata which he deems more influential on his style.... once you move beyond this (as i believe all people have to do eventually) and find your own way, you have to be able to explore the fighting principles contained within other kata - this is why they are still contained within the system and not disregarded completely - and it is also why they are placed later on in the path - so that once you get to them, you are ready to explore them

Maybe a good point, but in Kyokushin their is 2 theories of Kata. Northern and Southern style or Sabaki and Linear style. each style is completely different and are of 2 complete opposite ideologies as well.
The other flaw is that Kata was introduced after formalized hand combat was formed. So it was secondary training that over the years became primary learning...
When Kata was being introduced as part of the regiment of learning hand combat, one or 2 where taught over a 5 - 10 years time frame and they did not have bunkai since they used the actual moves not implied moves. They also did not use kick higher than the groin and most of the time kicks where to the joints. As for stances their was not perfect stance, punch's, blocks etc 1 or 2 and you worked them daily for years (worked them in your food gathering, etc or at your job if you had one, and preparing food, gathering wood, building house...

So if you wish to discuss kata as it was and is first go back and learn before it even was and then work forward, it may help you to understand the assumed of todays kata and the beginning katas of 150 or so years ago.
Which in fact many are reenactments (plays or dances) of tails of great battles, so kata is more trible dance interpretive communication than self defense, or fighting!!!

[blackshield]

i think the problem we have come to is that you seem to be referencing kyokushin style fighting as 'fighting' and the kata and bunkai as something seperate - personally i view it that kyokushin style fighting (whilst useful in a violent confrontation) is very far removed from 'fighting' as i know it. the kata and bunkai - when trained correctly - give a far more realistic interpretation of fighting methods than sparring does.

[Spirit]

My statements may not always come across as valued ones, but I believe that everyone has a point to make and sees things in their own ways.
If not for that fact, I doubt that Karate would even be with us today or in such a small way like the other forgotten arts that was learned with Karate, like knot ting, horse riding, bow and arrow making, cart building, mud brick making, etc to name a few...
If one takes a long (and broad) look at history and all the fallen arts that did not develop from a needed skill to live, to personal development skill as karate did, you would see the start of an art and its development over the years of tme. Karate has done this add and taken away items, if it did not do this then (maybe) we would not have Karate today, like we do not have the many fallen past skills of our ancestors.

I look at Karate as just this, and hope that others may take the time to dwell on it and possible also look at karate in a different light than they do now, not to say that one would agree with me but look at their thoughts of Karate in a new and broader manner.


blackshield, with respect...

I'm not looking at it that way, since I have had the honor and time to trained in many other styles and learn many ways to interpret Karate kata under their believes (ideologies of said style or instructor, etc).
Kata is an add-on in M/A's the only thing that is not a add-on is the fighting, no matter how you look at it, practice it or teach it... In-fact everything else outside of the actual fighting (to kill) is an add-on, and have taken on certain believes, theories or (hate to say it) religious perceptions about them.

Today many see M/A as more, or other than its foundational start of hand to hand kill or be killed. Yes it has evolved into something other than multi strike, sabaki (Chinese's style) or 1 lock/break strike, linear (Okinawan style) and we could go back further in time and add several other cultures fighting ways, but the same foundation will still come about.
The fighting and the drills to practice the fighting skills (not the dance that communicates a fight or battle(s) that had taken place and to be remembered aka Kata). And yes some kata do not have this focus, but since the very first ons did and others used this foundation to "make" otehrs up no matter the resone behind their think, kata is just that.
Yes one can make an augment that Kata falls under this, but since it came so late in the evolution (late 1700 & 1800's) than why try.

As for looking at it as Kyokushin kata verses other style kata, that makes no sense, since most (other styles) look at Kyokushin Kata (when done correctly by someone who understands the synergy of the kata) see them as one of the most correct interpretations of the kata's i.e. the energy, power, focus, spirit and breathing combinations etc.

Now (an educated guess based on my 30 plus years in Karate) about 97% of the Kyokushin karateka that I have seen teach and perform the kata's do them poorly at best, they focus so much on kumite and kihons and never bring all 3 into focus as ONE.
This maybe where we can agree, I see kata as part of and equal to all 3, they each have their strong points as well weak ones. The only thing I can say is that most miss the impotents of knowing what the kata is mimicking or trying to imply as well miss the value it adds to your bodies training. Yes kata does do the body good! Can you be a true yudansha if you never learn kata, yes, would I wish to be that yudansha, No. Does kata have special spiritual values, no, can I gain levels of skills that no other does if i but great value on kata, yes. Will it make me a better person inside and out , yes, no.

Kata is just that kata, it is part of Karate and we signed in on learning Karate and all that come with it. Kata is part of that. It touches different people in different ways. it adds value to those who need it to add value to it.

If you need Kata to train your mind you have failed before you got to that point. Kata does not add mind balance, or add self defense or make you a better fighter.
It does add balance!

Though it does make you a more balanced Karateka in the eyes of the values and tradition of Karate, style and community of karate...

If Kata was the all knowing everything in Karate, then why is it placed in different levels in different styles and why do some only have 18 while other have 50 and if it takes 7 years to learn just one why would we need so many that mimic each other (Taik; 1 & 2) and why have more than 10 (10 X 7 = 70 years)

It is what we are taught as tradition and has been handed down to use, like other folk tails (I would use them as examples, but they are not permitted on the forum). We have come to believe them and in the age of forums and blogs, we can now discuss them with other all around the world at one time and make them more in words than they are in your dojo or in your personal live.

To take the next step as a Karateka, not as a fighter of K/D or MMA etc, but as a Karateka, you have to understand that all is not what it seems and all is not what it perceives to be, but in the end all are equal and become balanced.
We teach many things in Karate that have value as well many things that bring you to believes that the value of this is great and strong and is there. They are tools to help the unbalanced, unopened minded to open up to and take in what normally they would not and discard, except and to look beyond what we perceive is our limit and understand that "our limit" is open to new interpretation.

[blackshield]

whislt i do agree with some of your points - i feel that the main sticking point probably comes down to different backgrounds and training methodolgies - it is hard to express exactly these kind of issues in writing, especially on the internet, and i feel there has probably been some misunderstanding of each others stand point on the subject because of this... hopefully one day i will have a chance to train with you

[Spirit]

It is also that you need time to understand the effects of decades of training has on ones outlook. As you continue your training and train with many different instructors and then teach others yourself (dojo ownership not at your Sensei's dojo) you take on different mind sets you'll look at this a bit differently perhaps.

Age to changes a person, I can tell you when I was your age I was stubborn and hard nosed, but I did take in everything past on to me. Knowing that someday maybe just maybe the "piss ant" that is telling me I'm wrong or need to work this and that, etc just may be turns out to be a really great teacher and I am the "piss ant"...

[blackshield]

only time will tell...
not sure i have been called a "piss ant" before - but i guess there is plenty more time for that too