A good analogy about the benefits of studying kata....

[BigAl]

This came up in another forum, the typical "kata is useful vs. kata is useless" argument and I liked it so much I had to repost it here. I edited it for spelling and to make it easier to understand, but most of it is still the same.

I think that to understand the value of practicing forms/kata we have to step back and look at another art: painting.

A friend of mine is going to art school. Frequently he gets an assignment to make a replica of a 400 year old painting by a master. He is graded on how close to perfect he gets the colors, shades, perspective, and brush-strokes. I thought to myself, "When he's out of school and in the real world, is he ever going to get commisioned and paid to make a replica of an old painting for someone?" The answer is obviously no. Then I realized that by trying to perfectly replicate a master's work, he had to learn some tricks and techniques that he would have otherwise not come across or ever had to think about. These tricks and techniques that he learned from his assignment can now be used to create his own paintings, which may or may not look anything like the master's work, but will certainly be of a higher quality than if he had never learned the master's tricks to begin with. The same holds true for the martial arts. The forms/kata that we practice might not be used exactly the same way in a real fight, but we can re-apply what we previously learned to suit our own needs while performing our art in a real world situation.

[Bloke]

BigAl

Thats an excellent analogy - must remember that the next time someone says Kata has no purpose any more.

[Kyokugen]

I don't really understand about kata because I just learn it without thinking the essence of kata itself but once I read in japanese manga if we practice kata a lot we would have soft but destructive power especially for kata which has a lot of ibuki in its movement, who knows~~..

[Kris]

I do not want to say that kata is all good/bad, but logicaly the analogy is false.

The differene is between kata and fighting. Using the analogy logicaly would be for a boxer to replicate a famous fight by Mohammed Ali for example. Watch a video of a famous match and then copy it in detail. Have a sparring partner be George Forman and himself Ali. This is what the painter is doing.

Doing kata for a painter would be to paint rainbows or poetic abstract color patterns and claim that it is for the benefit of learning to paint portraits or landscapes.

[Spirit]

How about this theory to think about?!?


Kata is the new part of martial arts only sport fighting is newer!
You all put to much theory and ideology into kata. It was formed to help the (what was back then) modern way of learning M/A. Basically the dojo or instructors that started to teach kata back then was what we now would consider Mcdojo’s!!!!

Kata was not always part of the learning and was added in as time and teachers looked at the art. Only Karate has kata of the budo arts (even though karate is not a true budo art).

If you put the same frame of mind or the same thought into all your training as you do for kata perhaps you would see the art as it should be and not as you do. The heavy emphasis on kumite and who is the best fighter is the focus for most of you though when kata is brought up you all act like it is either some holy form or some evil thing you can concur.
Kata training is no different than kihon or sparring the same energy and spirit the same kicks, punches just different outcomes.

Take a lesson from your own words and learn to use your energy correctly and control it since it is your own energy. Don’t let it control you as it does now. Stop looking for what you are going to gain from it, remove the ego from your training just train and let time pass without focus on if you can punch through a brick or beat more opponents than everyone else.
Kata is just one “NEW” tool in Karate and there will be more.
If you trained all your karate like you do kata, think of what you would be or who you would be. Since kata theory came from pre-existing karate or better let empty hand training from china it borrows from what one would do (back then) on basic training...

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by Kris

Doing kata for a painter would be to paint rainbows or poetic abstract color patterns and claim that it is for the benefit of learning to paint portraits or landscapes.

I agree that the anology is wrong, but I do not agree with your alternate description.
As I see it, a better description of kata would befor a master artist of the old school (the kind who did all kind of artistic work) to teach one of his painting students a set of pencil sketch techniques, but with a brush, while calling them brush techniques and never letting the student do pencil sketches.
The student would find the movements very familliar, but utterly useless in his painting with a brush.

translated to karate, the Kata techniques are primarily defences against grabbs/holds and close contact techniques, but called strikesor blocks when they actually are throws, pinn´s or something else entuirely.

Almost nothing in kata are intended to be applied in a one-on-one rule regulated kumite setting, which is what we normally train for.
But we try to FIND applications for the kata in our normal training, and becomes frustrated when our made up applications are less than realistic/useful.



I have never been shown a realistic bunkai in kyokushin. The few times Ive been shown ANYTHING, even by high ranking shihans, it has always been glaringly obvious that it is just a formal application not to be tried in a realistic situation.
However, when I look at some peoples work (like iain abernethy, of http://www.iainabernethy.com/ ), things just goes "click". I may not always agree that all the stuff he describes would work. But suddenly I see a purpose in the movements, and a attempt to be effective, that I sorely missed from kata (and many kihin techniques) before.

(sorry for the rant. pet subject)

[Bruce]

Martin H

Superb link - I've had a quick glance at this website and suddenly kata seems to all make sense - I look forward to exploring further. Many thanks!

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by Martin H

However, when I look at some peoples work (like iain abernethy, of http://www.iainabernethy.com/ ), things just goes "click". I may not always agree that all the stuff he describes would work. But suddenly I see a purpose in the movements, and a attempt to be effective, that I sorely missed from kata (and many kihin techniques) before.

I thought the same way until I started looking into Iain Abernethy's stuff myself. The videos make things 10x clearer than the books even do, you'll see a lot of what he says does have some basis. I may not agree with 100% of it, but I like a lot of it.

Another good one that I picked up a few ideas from:
http://www.amazon.com/Five-Years-Kat...e=UTF8&s=books

[Bloke]

I think the anlaogy is right for beginners to help them understand - but I accept perhap not so for the more world weary and cynical amogst us.

[Spirit]

If you understand the Taikyokyu kata's you understand all kata's....

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by jap man

If you understand the Taikyokyu kata's you understand all kata's....

I could not disagree with you more.

[sonofkanga]

concur,though i agree that Kata is a tool among others for learning karate.
Basicly,all Pinan were invented to help school kids learn two advanced Kata-Kanku and another i forgot its name.
The Taikiyoku were invented to simplify the learning of the Pinan.
So to my way of thinking there realy isn't too much in the Pinan and Taikiyoku Bunkai way beyond the strike/counter thing.
Bunkai gets intresting in the more advanced Kata.
Having said all that kata is still only a training tool.
Great fun,very artistic,but only a tool/

[Shokei Marcsui]

My old shotokan instructor explained martial arts as being that: a martial art.

Martial is the strict rigidness of the art form. Standing at attention, forming lines, acknowledging rank, kihon, kumite, etc etc.

Art is the expression of the martial form. Kata, deep stances, exact measurements of stances, perfect form and technique.

In kumite, kihon is adapted to take on a form that is unlike the form practiced at the beginning of class. The kumite is an expression of the adaptation to different stressors in your current environment. Essentially, the martial part takes form and the art is neglected. How often have you seen a fighter that does not have essentially good "form" so to speak be an excellent fighter and vice versa?

A perfectly executed yoko geri in kata is not essentially the same perfectly executed yoko geri in kumite.

In kata, kihon is adapted to take on a form of precision. Nice deep stances, precise blocks and strikes, and perfect uniformity. Taikyoku 1 is similar across many forms of karate. It may be named differently but still the same. This can be said about many other katas as well (Sanchin for instance). Kata is an imaginary fight but it is up to many interpretations. If there is a universal language that most karateka can speak to each other with, it would be in the form of kata, an expression of art for the martial arts.

Kata and kumite each have their own usefulness in respect. I don't hold presidence over the other because I believe that each exsist hand in hand. Each japanese karate regardless of style or school have kata and kumite in their intruction. Various forms of kumite (point, semi contact, full contact, pads/bare fist) and a universal form of kata. Just a different emphasis on either of the two.

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by sonofkanga

concur,though i agree that Kata is a tool among others for learning karate.
Basicly,all Pinan were invented to help school kids learn two advanced Kata-Kanku and another i forgot its name.
/

Kanku- Sho is the other kata...
You have forgoted that Bassai dai and sho are before Kanku dai and sho (in shotokan and once in kyokushin) and they are to learn the kanku (kwanku) kata's... note both Bassai kata's along with kaunku-sho and hangetsu where dropped from kyokushin and that the pinan and bassai kata's are the tool kata's to learn the kunku katas...

Martin, disagree all you wish, that is your choice, but don't confuse ideologue for knowledge......
Kata is kata each one is for a different stiuation but all sever the same purpose!
Understand of the most basic allows you to understand the most advanced and since one needs to close the circle you always come back to the beginning.
Just like Kihons, you start off with basics then move on to advanced... as you grow in knowledge and time you are back to the basics....

[Martin H]

Kata is kata each one is for a different stiuation but all sever the same purpose!
Understand of the most basic allows you to understand the most advanced and since one needs to close the circle you always come back to the beginning.
Just like Kihons, you start off with basics then move on to advanced... as you grow in knowledge and time you are back to the basics....

That is where I dont agree. The advanced katas hold a incredible ammount of data hidden in them. An incredible variety of bunkai.
The basic taikyoku katas do not, and merely serve to help with the most basics of functions. With only the crudest, most unrealistic bunkai.

You could compare that to kihon and the basic Tsuki. Sure you can never perfect the oy-tsuki so that you cant improve it slightly more. But that does not mean that you can learn everything you need to know in karate by simply doing oy-tsuki. And understand all karate techniques by just understanding the tsuki.

Say rather that you need to understand the basics before you can understand the advanced. and that once you learnt the advanced you can go back to the basics.

Saying that understanding the taikyokus means understanding all kata, is simply too simplistic and to much mystisism to me.

[Spirit]

Funny you use the word mysticism... because that is what thinking that a basic kata is less than an advaced kata. And that one holds much more than the other just because one is basic and the other advanced.

By the way the "advanced " kata as you so eloquently call them.... are the basic kata's!!!!
The katas "we" know as "basic" are just add in kata's.
So how does the true basic kata's hold so much more than the add in basic kata's.
They all imply the same thing.

Can you explain bunki of kumite and kihon as well as you can kata or do you even consider bunki of kihon and kumite?
Think long and hard on this.......

[kyofighter]

I have to agree with Martin on this.
I know the basics are super important but one needs to practice advance moves also. Sosai and other great masters from other karate styles would practice a lot tensho and sanchin no kata...I would give those katas more importance then taikyoku on long term.
To me it is a cycle, you start with the basics and eventualy end up again doing basics.
Osu

[helenosch]

I too agree with Martin and kyofighter.
I believe that only when you have mastered the advanced katas, like kankudai or so, you realise how important the basics are and you end up back doing the basics, and suddenly the basics are a lot better.
I experienced a small cycle, when I had to concentrate on Kata due to an injury and learned the advanced katas and now when we practice the taikyokus again, I experience them differently and even my sempai tells me they look a lot better than before. The perspective is different and I doubt you'll ever gain the insight of a kata (or karate in that matter! kumite isn't everything!) if you just stick to the basics...
just my two cents though...

[BigAl]

Hate to reiterate again, but I'm definitely in agreement with that too. I can't remember who said it, but someone once said martial arts training is something like climbing over a pyramid. You start off at the foundation and work your way to the top, then realize that the rest of your path brings you right back down to the foundation once again. I probably screwed it up big time, but you get the point

[Spirit]

FYI-sanchin and tensho are basic kata's if they where advanced you would learn them at Sandan and above!
Answer this ... why did Sosai put more emphasis on Taikyokyu kata's than all others (if you have been to a B/C camp or meeting you would know this) ??? And why is their a time limit to complete the Taikyokyu kata's, yet no other kata's have a time frame to meet to complete.

Nowing the Taikyokyu's you know all Kata's... it is a basic understanding of walking once you know how to roll on to your knees then you can learn to crawl and then walk & run.....

If you stopped training today for 20 or 30 years the only kata's you would remember how to purform and fully explain is the taikyokyu's. And don't think, because they are simple (and if you think they are then you have missed the point of the kata) you will be able to reme