kata training for tournament fighters

[Bloke]

I cant speak for Hasbeen but as someone who is somewhat older (not sure yet about wiser) my attitude to Kata has changed sine I was younger and I enjoy doing it more now and breaking it down which actually helps me teach it better.

[Olrac]

Originally Posted by Bloke

I cant speak for Hasbeen but as someone who is somewhat older (not sure yet about wiser) my attitude to Kata has changed sine I was younger and I enjoy doing it more now and breaking it down which actually helps me teach it better.

I agree fully with Bloke.
When I was younger I didn't like kata training.
Now that I'm older, I've learned to enjoy it.

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by seienchin

Now that you are older and wiser, do you regret this? Or is there plenty of time to do kata after your tournament days are over?

maybe older, i don`t know about wiser ..the donkey just about sums me up!

unfortunatley long retired due to a serious injury[+my body is falling apart] so kata never played a big part of my training,only for gradings, do i regret...good question, i still can`t make my mind up. i remember watching a world class expert perform kanku di..excuse the spelling, i`m sure you know the one i mean and thinking, WOW !!

i just used to enjoy sparring/fighting not for the vicious side of it,to me it was like a game of chess,what gave me a kick if you pardon the pun was unlocking the other fighter,or trying to, i was addicted+the excitement of knowing if you get it wrong you get hurt!..even moving around the dojo sparring i used to give a lot of thought as to how i would fight an individual, i found this a lot easier than memorising kata..i have the memory span of a goldfish,perhaps being big didn`t help either? i weighed about 110-115 kg when fit.. mixed feelings!?

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Martin H

shidokanatlanta. I got no argument against knockdown preparing you better for real fights thn only training bunkai. But knockdown, while having the hard contact and high adrenaline that bunkai training lack, do not have realistic situations.
In a fight you do not begin at a safe distance, moving in cautiously taking the meassure of your opponent. Possibly in a prearranged all-out duel, but not in a fight in the line to get into your local pub.
Fights start at close distance and is fast and furious.

Knockdown training makes you physically tough, mentally prepared, and hard hitting.
bunkai training (if properly done) gives you training in self defense situations, using techniques banned in competition. Especially in clinch range, where most knockdown frankly have nothing.

Kata should be approached in 4 stages.
1. Learn the kata.
2. Learn the bunkai for the kata moves.
3. Learn the variations of the techniques&principles taught in the basic bunkai.
4. Take the techniques and principles into live training as far as possible.

Sadly today we almost never get beyond step 1, and in step 2 most bunkai we are shown have little to do with realism.

But Kata is just a storage for the bunkai. and if you teach the techniques from bunkai as standalone without associating them to the katas, fine I got no problem with that.. The kata are just a traditional memory aid, and a ineffective one at that (otherwise we would not be having this discussion).

Doing just bunkai, does not prepare you mentally or physically for a real fight.
Doing formal kata without realistic bunkai is not useful for knockdown competition OR self defense.
Doing only knockdown training can let you win a real fight just by being tough, but its better to be tough AND trained for real situations. It is however vastly superior training for knockdown competitions.

Preferably you should do both bunkai and knockdown if you want self defense training. But if you are training for knockdown competitions, you are not training for self defense and should concentrate on that

Agree with 99% with your post Martin H's although I find the close in work I do as part of my knockdown training works ok at clich range. I think your overall point is a well rounded Karateka needs all that Kyokushin has within it's system and that one without the other may work but hey we've got it so why not train with it.

I also find Kata a great aerobic exercise, and a way to get you used to thinking while tired - something that helps when the 30 second buzzer goes

[Lucy]

I have to admit i enjoy kata alot more now since ive been fighting. Also ive got alot better at it! I remember having this discussion before. Those who fight progress stronger in karate on a whole. I agree with this and this is what has happened for me. To be honest i think i like kata more now than i do fighting

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

kata is good for focus and is a mild form of exercise. but for the fighter, the fighter needs to spar and do conditioning and training exercises specifically for competition. kata is not sports specific to combat competition.

[Kareyn]

Our class is warm up, self-defense moves, kihon, katas, kumite. Gradings are on attitude, attendence, and application of techniques. That's just how it is. If we are going to fight in tournaments, sensei spends some extra time with us and we train for kumite.

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

the kata training is not applicable to kumite competiton. 2 different things, so fighters need to fight and do the things that resemble what they are going to do in competition. remember that competition training is not the same as classroom training. i pull the competitors aside and they focus on competiton training when it's time to get ready for an event.

[Kareyn]

Exactly.

[James]

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

kata is good for focus and is a mild form of exercise. but for the fighter, the fighter needs to spar and do conditioning and training exercises specifically for competition. kata is not sports specific to combat competition.

typical fight training is great physical preperation, but dont you think that the mental focus kata develops can also be of benefit to the fighter? helping keep a calm zenlike mind during the heat of combat?

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

i agree that it is good for one's focus. but it won't help one stay calm. shadow boxing is more applicable than kata for the competitor. you don't move the same way or execute techniques the same between the two (kata and competiton). the conditioning, sparring, fight experience, etc. is what helps the fighter mentally. get your body in shape and your mind will shape up with it.

[Dent]

Osu!

Shadowboxing may be one of the best, yet most overlooked, tools in fight prep. It's all about mind and body time, yet most practice in a hesitant, half-bored way when they do it at all.

Osu!

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

Your absolutely right Dent. When I see students go through the motions without putting their minds into it, I put them in front of a mirror. I tell them that what they see in the mirror is what their opponents see.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

Your absolutely right Dent. When I see students go through the motions without putting their minds into it, I put them in front of a mirror. I tell them that what they see in the mirror is what their opponents see.

Good idea there, ShidokanAtlanta! I also move them to where they can see themselves, but forget to tell them something other than, "You're not that pretty! "

Osu!

[BCook]

Take a look at the Kanji on your gi, its Kyokushin...

Kyokushin Karate involves Kumite, AND kata... if you want to do your style proud then you must embrace all aspects of it.. be it kumite, or kata, or sanbon kumite, ido geiko, kihon..

if it is only fighting you are after then go do something in the MMA arena.. something that has no philosophy behind it, no tradition.

when we do kata, we are activating a link that goes way way way way back the traditions of kyokushin, we have a connection to all of those that have come before us and practiced that very same kata...

it is true that some people will excell at kumite more than kata, others thrive on kata but shy away from kumite... but the goal, for us, as kyokushin karateka is to excell at all that our style encompasses, our founder is undoubtedly one of the best fighters to have lived, and his kata was unsurpassed aswell...

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

kata and fighting for competition (whether it be knock down, kickboxing, mma or a street fight) require a different type of training. if one decides to be a competitive combat athlete, he will have to design a program that will gear him for that. kata will not help the karateka who choses to fight in combat sports (knock down, kickboxing, mma, etc.).

training to fight requires cardio (running, rope, sprints, shadow boxing) and fight conditioning (pads, bags, sparring). kata training has no carry over for combat sports because you will never execute a technique or move that way when you fight.

you can be both a martial athlete and a martial artist. you simply take the lessons of competition and bring it back to what you do as a martial artist. it is a way to test oneself physically and mentally, creating a strong spirt. so, there is a philosophy to fighting.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

This debate reminds me of the intelligent v clever one.

"The difference between being clever and intelligent is that clever people know what to do with what they know. Do not waste time on all the finer details of knowledge .... find the common denominators and use your intuition" (Adrian Maile - Secret Habits of Successful Bastards)

OK - that book's very amusing and a bit tongue in cheek, but the principle is sound. If you were to ask me seriously if learning dozens of traditional kata helps when fighting for real or competing, I'd have to say a resounding no. That's not to say practising traditional kata is not interesting, challenging and rewarding, but just that in the same way that the World quiz champion may be no better at solving life's problems, simply knowing more stuff may not help in a crisis.

Practising key techniques and principles and applying them better is the real key to effectiveness - in my considered opinion.

Gary

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

gary,

perhaps you (and stylists like you) can share enshin's philosophy of kata. your style along with some others (ashihara, kudo, etc.) have done away with traditional kata and have opted for movements that resemble those techniques that you will use in tournaments/self defense. the are no chambered fist positions or low stances, but it is still karate.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Shidokanatlanta,

I'm a fairly new boy in Enshin (2000 to date) after 27 years of Kyokushin (1971 - 1998) so I obviously wasn't training in the formative years of the style when Kancho Ninomiya devised his kata. Kancho Ninomiya was of course part of the Ashihara style previously, so had already been training in the 'modern' kata of Kancho Ashihara.

Each belt in Enshin has it's own kata. They become progressively more complex, as one might expect, and focus on the sabaki strategy and combinations. Kata is still viewed as very important and plays a large part in promotion tests, although clearly the emphasis has changed to movements and combinations more relevant to the current fighting style. As you say - Enshin is most definately still karate. A stand-up style that produces skilful and spirited fighters.

Having trained in both systems, I prefer the modern kata hands down. There is no hidden meaning - what you see is what you get. If you practise them with vigour, you get stronger and move better so your fighting style improves.

I mean no disrespect to those who love and no doubt benefit from the practise of traditional kata - this is just a personal opinion.

Gary