kata training for tournament fighters

[hasbeen]

[quote=GJEChamberlain;72655]Osu!

This debate reminds me of the intelligent v clever one.

"The difference between being clever and intelligent is that clever people know what to do with what they know. Do not waste time on all the finer details of knowledge .... find the common denominators and use your intuition" (Adrian Maile - Secret Habits of Successful Bastards)

OK - that book's very amusing and a bit tongue in cheek, but the principle is sound. If you were to ask me seriously if learning dozens of traditional kata helps when fighting for real or competing, I'd have to say a resounding no. That's not to say practising traditional kata is not interesting, challenging and rewarding, but just that in the same way that the World quiz champion may be no better at solving life's problems, simply knowing more stuff may not help in a crisis.

OSU GARY! my knowledge on this subject is miles behind yours but i have to say i agree whole heartedly.....i could never see how kata could be of great benefit to k.d once the basics have been learnt..and the being "clever" side to training is just a breath of fresh air!!!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Hasbeen,

LOL

Not sure whether you mean your kata knowledge is behind mine or your 'How to be a b******d' knowledge .....

It saddens me sometimes to see instructors falling into the variety trap. Things starts off great, but after a while they constantly strive to give new and exciting variations of everything. The result is often students with breadth of knowledge, not depth of knowledge. We see some that can demonstrate 30 different applications of every traditional kata move but still couldn't fight sleep.

The knockdown styles (and I include all derivatives here) have the quality control of getting up there and testing themselves out, but for those that don't it's easy to see how they get carried away with going down the "Look how much we know" path rather than the "Look how well we can apply what we know"

This is nothing new. As a Grammar School boy I was drip-fed a diet of Kipling (as in the author, not the exceedingly good cakes) in my formative years. As the first world war loomed over Europe he wrote;

"Our chances are not so slim as they look for the reason that the enemy knows all about war as it should be waged scientifically, and my experience has been that when a man knows exactly how everything ought to be done under every conceivable contingency he is apt to be tied up by his own knowledge"

Still as true today as ever in my opinion.

Gary

PS Note to mods. Not style bashing I hope, just a comparison of teaching methods.

[tmd]

[quote=GJEChamberlain;72698] As a Grammar School boy I was drip-fed a diet of Kipling (as in the author, not the exceedingly good cakes) in my formative years.

I know which one I'd rather be drip fed.

From the vids here and elsewhere around the net I get a sense that the first defensive move is to evade, i.e. the best defense is don't be there? Is this typical of Enshin Kata/ system?

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! tmd,

Correct - in the first five kata they start with fighting stance then blocking or rather redirecting attacks before countering from the blind spot .....

Black belt kata is more aggressive - i.e. using pre-emptive strikes.

Gary

[seienchin]

I have been watching this thread with some interest, and after reading some of the very informative posts, I have just had a thought that I would be interested in hearing others views on.

I actually don't know a single excellent tournament fighter (and I have known many national and international champions) who was not also excellent at kata. The two just seem to go together.

Now that may reflect the discipline and attitudes of the dojos that they came from, but from the really really good fighters from within traditional kyokushin, I can't think of a single one who either scorned kata training, or who was bad at it.

Now, it is a different question altogether whether kata training helped their kumite. I can certainly see that as open for debate. But here is my question - maybe early aptitude at kata is a predictor that someone has the potential to be a good fighter. Maybe aptitude at kata is a measure of athleticism, co-ordination, weight distribution, focus, breath control and a host of other things that actually are also useful in kumite.

Thoughts?

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Seienchin,

I think there are talented and driven individuals who by nature seek to be the best they can be. These will undoubtedly progress in all aspects of training and become the champions and instructors of the future. There are also those who select their preference and excel in that, so kata champions are not always top fighters etc.

My comments really relate to the type of kata training. I'm not much for martial arts historical debate, but the fighting styles in virtually all arts have moved on in leaps and bounds while the traditional kata have remained fixed. The benefits you describe - athleticism, co-ordination, weight distribution, focus, breath control and a host of other things that actually are also useful in kumite are improved by 'modern' kata too, but perhaps in a way that has a more easy transfer to modern kumite.

Let's not forget that many of the kata seen and practised today as traditional were at one point inducing similar outrage in those that prefered the even older ones. At what point does someone have the clout to say, "OK - enough now. These are the kata and they will now remain the same for ever" and even if they did, wouldn't that limit progress?

Gary

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

most fighters don't practice kata. it was rare to find people who are good at both. most karate fighters who kick box or do mma competitively, stop going to class and focus on competing when getting ready for a fight. serious knockdown fighters focus on conditioning and sparring. traditional kihon and kata does not translate to sparring. they'd rather do drills that resemble what they are going to do in sport. being good in kata and being a competitive combat athlete are in no way related. to be good at fighting you have to fight. kata is not live practice for the fighter. you can't learn timing and reaction and you don't get hit.

[martelo]

Osu!
Dear friends, yes Kata is really important, but ONLY with Bunkai!
Unhappily in Kyokushin, sometimes we do not pay to much attention to Kata or Bunkai…and this is very important!
Please, check that book: Bunkai-Jutsu – Ian Albernethy

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Shidokanatlanta,

We tend to emphasise kata more away from Tournament preparation, and as Enshin kata can and should be practised together thay can be used to train specific skills, particularly for up and coming fighters. I suppose you could describe it almost as periodisation - low risk but sharp partner training (often using kata combinations, remembering Enshin kata use normal kumite stances and techniques) leading into the few weeks before where we use more live and unrehersed drills.

It's hard to argue with results. We do very well. Others may do things a different way and if it works good for them. I tend not to look at things so cut and dried. Everyone's different so different methods may light their fire so to speak.

Gary

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

gary,

the good thing about enshin and ashihara kata is that the stance, movement and application are like those in kumite. the kata's are designed to be practiced with partners and the techniques are applicable to kumite. traditional kata experts put a lot of theories out about the different bunkai but the information is never consistent. they get caught up in the intricacies of kata and what the ancients intended. fighters allow us to see applied karate.

martelo,

on the bunkai jutsu (it is a good book) by arbenethy, he claims that the original okinawan kata were only designed to deal with basic street attacks and not against trained fighters. i have a problem with that line of thought. techniques should be applicable at all times. the double leg take down, the jab, and the muay thai knee are examples of ancient techniques that work today like they did in times of old. man has punched, kicked, elbowed, grappled, etc. since the beginning of time.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu! Seienchin,

I think there are talented and driven individuals who by nature seek to be the best they can be. These will undoubtedly progress in all aspects of training and become the champions and instructors of the future. There are also those who select their preference and excel in that, so kata champions are not always top fighters etc.

My comments really relate to the type of kata training. I'm not much for martial arts historical debate, but the fighting styles in virtually all arts have moved on in leaps and bounds while the traditional kata have remained fixed. The benefits you describe - athleticism, co-ordination, weight distribution, focus, breath control and a host of other things that actually are also useful in kumite are improved by 'modern' kata too, but perhaps in a way that has a more easy transfer to modern kumite.

Let's not forget that many of the kata seen and practised today as traditional were at one point inducing similar outrage in those that prefered the even older ones. At what point does someone have the clout to say, "OK - enough now. These are the kata and they will now remain the same for ever" and even if they did, wouldn't that limit progress?

Gary

A bit like modern music. At the time he was composing, Mozart was controversial!!!

I am just struggling to think of a single gifted fighter who looks like a gumby when they try to do kata. I don't think that the kata champions will be kumite champions, or vice versa, but it can sometimes happen, but I just can't think of someone from Australia who has made top 16 at Worlds who was really bad, or even mediocre at kata. I'm not saying that the necessarily beavered away at it..that is not my point. I'm just noticing an interesting convergence.

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

most fighters don't practice kata. it was rare to find people who are good at both. most karate fighters who kick box or do mma competitively, stop going to class and focus on competing when getting ready for a fight. serious knockdown fighters focus on conditioning and sparring. traditional kihon and kata does not translate to sparring. they'd rather do drills that resemble what they are going to do in sport. being good in kata and being a competitive combat athlete are in no way related. to be good at fighting you have to fight. kata is not live practice for the fighter. you can't learn timing and reaction and you don't get hit.

I don't agree that we have sufficient evidence base to say "most fighters don't practice kata" - for a start, most of which fighters?

Most kyokushin fighters definitely do practice kata as it is part of their training requirements. However, I've been round the ropes enough times to know what you mean about the differences. Can you think of a fighter who was absolutely hopeless at kata - not someone who didn't care, but someone who, in spite of trying, was an absolute disaster at kata, but lethal in the ring? I just can't!!!!! (I think it also depends on what you define as "good at kata" - for example, I don't much care about the snapping sound of the gi -but I do care that the techniques have power, focus and follow-through.)

Here's another question - what about kata training as active recovery for fighters - to get corked thighs moving again, to rebuild quad strength after injury to knees? After my knee reconstructions, my orthopaedic surgeon told me to forget about physio and just do kata - he said it was like physio for fighters.

Thoughts?

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

seienchin,

when i talk about fighters forgoing karate class style workouts, i am referring to the many fighters with martial arts backgrounds that i've met in fight gyms (primarily boxing, kickboxing, and mma). once they start training for a competitive event, that is their focus. kata is practiced if one has to get ready for a test, sure. but the competitive fighter does most of his or her training outside of class style workouts. the training that they do in the fight gyms is geared toward fighting and kata training does not contribute to kumite prowess. even knockdown fighters focus their efforts on getting in shape (cardio, resistance, bag, pad, sparring, etc.). their focus is not kata, it is fighting. shadow boxing is more conducive to fighting than kata for the competitor.

i've torn both acls (one repaired and one not). sure, stance training is helpful, but your quads need more than kata. your quads need resistance (pool, bike, bands, weights, etc.) after they've been injured. i function with one torn acl, because of strengthening the muscles around my knee (squats, lunges, dead lifts, etc.). with a torn acl, it will take about 3 months before you can really pivot, so kata training isn't really happening for awhile after injury.

[blazindave]

I see kata in both views - traditional and modern.
I would not practice kata if i was entering a tournament. Nothing beats the real thing. If i was entering a kata tournament i would rarely fight.

That being said, i like katas. It's great way to work on the basics in a way that you can't in kumite.
For example, many people punch with their shoulders all tight and raised. They also have problems with punching with the right knuckles. When i do kata, i try to get absolute perfect technique. If you can do it easily during kata, then it's second nature during kumite.
So when people say kata is a practiced fight they dont only mean "pretend this guy does this and he does that" but practicing how to attack and block effectively. It's basically shadow boxing.

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by seienchin

I have been watching this thread with some interest, and after reading some of the very informative posts, I have just had a thought that I would be interested in hearing others views on.

I actually don't know a single excellent tournament fighter (and I have known many national and international champions) who was not also excellent at kata. The two just seem to go together.

Now that may reflect the discipline and attitudes of the dojos that they came from, but from the really really good fighters from within traditional kyokushin, I can't think of a single one who either scorned kata training, or who was bad at it.

Now, it is a different question altogether whether kata training helped their kumite. I can certainly see that as open for debate. But here is my question - maybe early aptitude at kata is a predictor that someone has the potential to be a good fighter. Maybe aptitude at kata is a measure of athleticism, co-ordination, weight distribution, focus, breath control and a host of other things that actually are also useful in kumite.

Thoughts?

osu seienchin! how about the "wushu" fighters that almost hi-jacked the british and european opens at one time...?

i think this boils down to opinion, gary is a ex british open champion...and kata champion...and i read it that he thinks kata does not improve your knockdown skills(i might be wrong)

mauy thai fighters when they turn their hand to it are more than usefull at knockdown.

my humble opinion is that kata does not make a knockdown fighter. if you want to progress in kyokushin you can`t shun kata, as i know you are aware..so it has to go hand in hand a little bit. we had a 3rd dan in our dojo who represented g.b all styles at kata..he didn`t do very well in the k.d tournaments...

what i would say is that initially it teaches movement and balance and starts to put the jigsaw puzzle together, however once a certain level has been achieved i just cannot see how it improve the k.d skills.



but there again you are a highly respected karateka and you think it does.....so i think this is something that is down to personal opinion....but i have say a very interesting discussion!

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by hasbeen

but there again you are a highly respected karateka and you think it does.....so i think this is something that is down to personal opinion....but i have say a very interesting discussion!

I am having trouble making myself understood! I am not arguing that kata makes you a better tournament fighter..... I am noting that people who are good at kumite are almost invariably good at kata, provided they want to be. No causality suggested. But it suggests some common demands of the 2 perhaps. A bit like saying that people with blue eyes are more prone to sunburn....the eyes don't cause the sunburn. I just propose that it might be a way to spot good potential talent.

I'm also proposing that kata has different uses in fighters other than making you a better fighter - recovery in particular.

[vapor]

Originally Posted by seienchin

I A bit like saying that people with blue eyes are more prone to sunburn....the eyes don't cause the sunburn. I just propose that it might be a way to spot good potential talent.

OMG!! I have blue eyes and sunburn easily! Am I talented? (Oh wait....I think I mixed up the correlation!)

vapor

[MilkManX]

I have noticed since starting Enshin and learning the first 2 kata's in the system that my sparring is alot better! I think it is a great tool to teach distance,footwork and technique for Kumite.