kata training for tournament fighters

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu! Hasbeen,

It's only right to point out I was never a kata champion, although I trained quite a few.

Osu! Some further comments to the discussion,

My comments really relate to the 'traditional' kata (which some would have you believe are as old as time but in reality were invented by men rather than gods and most fairly recently)

It cannot be denied that there are some useful movements in them - some for self defence - that can be devastating if done correctly. However, I honestly believe in many dojo the message is lost. The movements are simply rehersed as a ticket to the next belt, rather than studied, adapted and trained until instinctive.

I need hardly remind everyone that learning hundreds of seperate moves and applications takes valuable and scarce training time, and makes no more sense than taking 100 shirts on holiday when you only need half a dozen.

That's the kind of traditional kata (training) I feel is useless for fighters, but if a student takes the time to select key movements that work for them and drill them until they are formidable weapons - it can only help. As a karate student and instructor for a long time, I know of perhaps a handful that have taken traditional kata that far, myself NOT included ...

Hence my preference for moves that are often present in a fight being rehersed and made smoother and more powerful in a flowing kata. This just makes more sense to me and is instantly applicable in kumite.

There are always people who spend the time on traditional kata and make it effective. Iain Abernethy has already been mentioned here and having trained with him on one of Peter Consterdines training days I can vouch for his ability. Such individuals are rare indeed and I salute his effort and dedication while acknowledging that realistically most students will never be that dedicated.

Gary

osu gary!! thank you for putting me right, i should have re-checked your "c.v" in the enshin thread.

and for explaining your views further, the point i was trying to make was...
a friend of mine was an above average boxer and we trained together in some converted garages..he helped with my punching, i taught him to kick/knee etc;etc..............after about six months i asked an old mate of mine who ran a dojo if he would look my friend over and see what he thought about his potential ability....

he did a full session with them and fought their "star fighter" a 2nd dan. my friend knocked the guy over very quickly. he had never seen or heard of "kata" but had natural knockdown ability.

i understand kata makes a more "rounded" karateka and without it, it would be just a form of kickboxing and i admit i do not have your knowledge or indeed seienchins knowledge...just an opinion. i could not agree more about kata being rehersed just to obtain the next grade..this was always the way it was portrayed when i trained, maybe i lost out?

i would be very interested to see what pheezy thinks about all this running a successful muay thai/knockdown dojo.

and also osu to seienchin, i do now understand where you are "coming from"

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

i think that one of the reasons knock down styles of karate came about was to help us get past the theories of bunkai. as a fighter, i don't accept the idea of secret meanings to traditional kata. people have to fight in some form or another or the instructors need to have fighting experience to make their karate real for their students. i equate the theorist with the PHD in business who only lectures and the dropout who hustled his way to a fortune. learning theory is cool, but you have to have the practical.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

I often liken it to the bloke who polishes and sharpens his tools and hangs them up on a shadow board each night in his tidy shed with everything in the right place ....

Others just make things with them. I know what I'd rather do.

Hasbeen - you're so right. Ricky Hatton v Kata champion, body punches only. Mmmm, that's a no-brainer.

Gary

[Dent]

Osu!

IMO, the Kata of Ashihara and Enshin are very good for sparring training, particularly the practice with a partner that is done.

Some of the other Kata applications from traditional Kata have pulled my fat out of the fire on the street though, so I value them for that.

So, I wouldn't practice traditional Kata for a ring fight, but I do like it in case of other less friendly situations.

Osu!

[Gheorgei]

i hope kata isnt too intersected with kumite, cos my katas really suck, lol

[FutureProdigy]

Is there any official kyokushin bunkai? Ive heard many different opinions for why we do this movement in kata x. If bunkai was the original prupose of the katas would we not then have some sort of record for them? I like ian abernethy's stuff but is it not just his opinion, is there no authorative body on this? Does IKO1 have a an official stance, etc?

[Dent]

Osu!

Future Prodigy, you like a well ordered universe, don't you?

Any, and possibly all, Kihon Bunkai are only going to work for a portion of the folk who practice them. The applications of the movements may vary significantly depending on everything from your body type/ shape/ size/ length etc, to your character.

Best way to find which Kata works best for you is by exploring one (that you like) in some depth.

For the record, I don't think that IKO1 has an official full Bunkai syllabus, including all of the Kata.

Osu!

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

there is no authoritative body on kata bunkai. there are many who have researched it in great lengths. you will have to do a lot of self exploration for bunkai in your kata practice in order for it to make sense to you. i think that katas are reflections of fighting techniques used by their creators. these movements were stylized and put into patterns over the years. i view kata as theory and sparring and partner drills as applied theory. a good fighter can take almost any move out of a kata and make it work. it is very rare the other way around.

[mcuz]

Just another reply to shidokanatlanta - people are the product of there training. I was told a story about one of our kyokushin knockdown karateka from where I come from, who got into a real fight and guess what? he was throwing techniques OTHER THAN punches to the head. Yes he was a product of his training

I have also participated in tournament fighting etc and it is an excellent way to test yourself under pressure etc and this does help mold you as a fighter. But I am also very aware that this training is tournament (or fight) specific. In this training you don't necessarily train all of your weapons/and you don't train for street situations

I believe a true karateka MUST be good across the board - kata, fitness, self defense, fight or tournament experience, dojo ettiquette, etc.

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

with the thread being "kata for tournament fighters", i will say that kata doesn't create good tournament fighters. the best fighters don't focus on kata training to train for competition or self defense. if that was the case, all the fighters would be doing pinans instead of hitting bags, pads, and people. most fighters i know will agree with me.