Kanku Dai

[jcc]

With reference to another thread here, kanku dai must be my favourite kata, for various reasons which I won´t go into here, but I just saw this on yt:

YouTube - Kanku Kyokushinkai kata

Anybody knows who this is, or where it comes from? KD here a bit different to way I learned it, mainly kake uke blocks at the end, so just wondered where these differences came from! Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

[Martin H]

That is from the official IKO1 (Matsui) video serie " The Kyokushin karate Encyclopedia" released in the late 90ies.
IKO1 has changed a few details in some of their kata from the way they were done before Sosai´s death and the great split in IKO, so its not surprising if you notice something done a bit differently from how you do it in another group.

[kyofighter]

There are some differences in the way kata is done today in many organizations.
If you want to find the way it used to be practice in the '80s, a good book is Steve Arneil's kata book from 1985.
Here is link about the book :
NEWS, KYOKUSHIN KATA BOOK - www.piotrszeligowski.pl

[Dent]

As Martin H says, these are fairly recent IKO 1 versions of the Kata. Sorry, but I don't recognize the person doing the demonstrating.

Yes, there are several differences from a few years ago. There are often updates or changes in emphasis. It can be a bit tough for those of us who are not natural Kata types.

Note to self: I guess the only solution is to practice more often. ;-)

[Bloke]

That looks almost the same as we do it in the IFK under Hanshi Arneil (the rhythm is different) but the Kake Uke was always there since I started training over 20 years ago.

If there is no kake uke in the version you learnt could you tell us what the movements at the end of the kata are?

[jcc]

Originally Posted by kyofighter

There are some differences in the way kata is done today in many organizations.
If you want to find the way it used to be practice in the '80s, a good book is Steve Arneil's kata book from 1985.
Here is link about the book :
NEWS, KYOKUSHIN KATA BOOK - www.piotrszeligowski.pl

Thanks all for the clarification. Believe it or not I do actually have the Steve Arneil book I actually trained in London until around 1994/5, when I moved on to the continent (work!) and more or less been out of touch since then. I obviously missed quite a lot and am trying to catch up now

I´ve just started training again at an IKO(1) dojo and have noticed some small differences, but wasn´t sure if that wasn´t just down to the club´s sensai (and I´m obviously not going to go around correcting or questioning him!).

Bloke - Sorry, I meant that the kake uke is done with the opposite hand to the one I was taught should do it, as in the SA kata book

[goldberg2310]

osu.

what group you belong to? every group has changed the katas for their own.
but you are right. this way of the four blocks i´ve never seen before. looks like a opposite "half tensho".

for our organisation the new book of shihan brian fitkin is for real.

[Bloke]

Originally Posted by jcc

Bloke - Sorry, I meant that the kake uke is done with the opposite hand to the one I was taught should do it, as in the SA kata book

jcc

I never even noticed the difference in the Video until I read this bit and looked again. I see it now - I was taught same as you - the hand that does the Kake Uke is the opposite hand to the one that does the last Yonhon nukite.

[niceguy]

Originally Posted by Bloke

jcc

I never even noticed the difference in the Video until I read this bit and looked again. I see it now - I was taught same as you - the hand that does the Kake Uke is the opposite hand to the one that does the last Yonhon nukite.

yep ... this kata is very nice but differ slightly in different organizations here's one from WKO done by Shihan Kenji Midori

YouTube - Demonstration Shin kyokushin world champ 2007

[jcc]

Originally Posted by niceguy

yep ... this kata is very nice but differ slightly in different organizations here's one from WKO done by Shihan Kenji Midori

YouTube - Demonstration Shin kyokushin world champ 2007

Thanks and wow - what is that at the end - never seen that before!

I´m not really with any group at the moment. I have 2 IKO(1) dojos around 100km away (in different directions!) and a couple of Shinkyokushin dojos, also around 100km away. Hope to visit all at some time, but so far have only managed to get to the one (time problems - a 200km round trip to train no joke ) . I guess I´ll just have to learn several versions of the kata, depending on where I am

[niceguy]

Originally Posted by jcc

Thanks and wow - what is that at the end - never seen that before!

I´m not really with any group at the moment. I have 2 IKO(1) dojos around 100km away (in different directions!) and a couple of Shinkyokushin dojos, also around 100km away. Hope to visit all at some time, but so far have only managed to get to the one (time problems - a 200km round trip to train no joke ) . I guess I´ll just have to learn several versions of the kata, depending on where I am

My advice is to going in to each dojo watch or take a class(highly recommended) and see how you feel. Give or take a few differences kyokushin is kyokushin. These days most kyokushinka train and compete with other organizations.Good luck
p.s.
the last kata was Tensho

[jcc]

Originally Posted by niceguy

My advice is to going in to each dojo watch or take a class(highly recommended) and see how you feel. Give or take a few differences kyokushin is kyokushin. These days most kyokushinka train and compete with other organizations.Good luck
p.s.
the last kata was Tensho

Yes, that is the idea, just the long distances involved make things complicated Basically, it´s still 90% training myself and dojo when I can get there. As someone no doubt said sometime, these things are sent to test us....

And - Tensho , of course - it just looks strange the way he goes straight from KD into it, which is what confused me!

Thanks again, anyway.

[ShinnyKyokushinny]

I think there is a difference between The Kanku Kata and the Kanku Dai

Kanku is shorter and left some technics

IKO1 and IFK is Kanku Dai (the long version)
IKO2 (WKO) is Kanku (the short version)

Both of them are one of the nicest kata in kyokushin, personely i like Sushiho the most

[jcc]

Originally Posted by ShinnyKyokushinny

I think there is a difference between The Kanku Kata and the Kanku Dai

Kanku is shorter and left some technics

IKO1 and IFK is Kanku Dai (the long version)
IKO2 (WKO) is Kanku (the short version)

Both of them are one of the nicest kata in kyokushin, personely i like Sushiho the most

I´m not too sure about that. All the Kanku videos I´ve seen are more or less the same length. My question was about the hand that does the kake uke towards the end of the kata, although I have also noticed a couple of other small differences, eg the no. of moroashi dachi/shuto gedan berai moves that are done. I learned the kata with 3 steps up, 3 down. I´ve seen 3 up, 4 down and 4 up, 4 down (in the WKO video above )

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by ShinnyKyokushinny

I think there is a difference between The Kanku Kata and the Kanku Dai

Kanku is shorter and left some technics

IKO1 and IFK is Kanku Dai (the long version)
IKO2 (WKO) is Kanku (the short version)

No.
In Shotokan, where the kyokushin Kanku kata originates, there is Kanku Dai and Kanku Sho (Much as we have Gekisai Dai and Gekisai Sho). Actually there are several version of kanku/Kushanku kata around, but we got it from Shotokan and they use 2 versions.
But from the two versions used in Shotokan, only Kanku Dai was included in kyokushin -so many drop the "Dai" from the name and just call it Kanku since there is no need do differ it from the "sho" version. There is no difference between "kanku dai kata" and "kanku kata" in kyokushin (other than recent changes made in the organizations after the split).

[Dizrythmia]

I'm trying to relearn Kanku Dai in the way it is in the "Shin kyokushin world champ 2007" video. It was my specialist 2nd Dan kata, but after 5 years away from Karate I've forgotten it. I had a printout of the moveset, & I believe my Senseii (who is now sadly deceased) obtained it from Mas Oyama's "Advanced Karate", but I don't fancy forking out $200+ to find out I'm wrong.

Does anyone else know where I may be able to obtain a copy of the kata done in this way? Or is Advanced Karate the only book to contain it? Does Steve Arneil's book contain it?

Thanks

[jcc]

Osu!

Try here: Tsu Shin Gen International

Osu!

[ksan]

The way in the video is older, shiguru oyama does his own kanku dai like this (not sure about the hand that does it though, because all the literature i can find says that the video is showing the wrong hand for kake uke)... Its not just a different hand that does the movement also the starting point and the way the movement goes is slightly different from what we do now in IFK (the way the movement goes is influenced by its starting point and on what side of the body you do it). Kyokushin Union sometimes do a shuto mawashi uke instead of the kake uke.

Advanced karate shows the same (or almost the same) movement as Hanshi`s Kata Book. Kake uke with the other hand then in the video (i.i.c. the hand that doesn`t do the nukite)

The organisations are drifting appart in these matters

Osu

[bitterbut]

Originally Posted by Martin H

No.
In Shotokan, where the kyokushin Kanku kata originates, there is Kanku Dai and Kanku Sho (Much as we have Gekisai Dai and Gekisai Sho). Actually there are several version of kanku/Kushanku kata around, but we got it from Shotokan and they use 2 versions.
But from the two versions used in Shotokan, only Kanku Dai was included in kyokushin -so many drop the "Dai" from the name and just call it Kanku since there is no need do differ it from the "sho" version. There is no difference between "kanku dai kata" and "kanku kata" in kyokushin (other than recent changes made in the organizations after the split).

Martin, I have to disagree with you... Shotokan's Kanku Dai and Kyokushin's are so very different and is far more traditional [kyokushin version] in the Okinawan way.

As well Kanku Sho was once part of Kyokushin but dropped many moons ago 50's - 60's ... as was Bassai Dai and Sho were