pinan yon kamae position

[BCook]

Hi guys,

i have a question about the 1st move in Pinan Yon:

Turning into hidari kokutsu-dachi hand positions are shuto chudan uchi uke and shuto jodan uke....

is there a kamae name for this postion?

eg: _____ kamae?

Thanks in advance

OSU

[shurenkan]

BCook,

The stance itself would be Kokutsu Dachi (back stance). I don't believe that there is another name for that stance inclusive of the blocks.

Osu,
Miguel Rios

[BCook]

Osu,

Thanks Shurenkan,

seems odd, im sure its out there somewhere... there are far more strange kamae positions... one of the bunkai for it is as an on guard position.... so you would assume it had a more formal title other than kokutsu dachi with shuto chudan uchi uke and shuto jodan uke...

[kakatootoshi]

Dear BC Cook,
Sorry but I am afriad your assumption is not correct. There is simply no purpose-made name for each single movement in Kyokushin Kata.

OSU!

[seienchin]

Hi Brad.
As a kamae, it is certainly reminiscent of what I have seen used by some non-karate styles, but I don't think it is a kamae as such in this kata. I have always been taught that this is a double block - I'll be interested to hear divergent views.

As I understand it, where you land after a block is....the place you landed. It is not a kamae, even if it looks like one from other styles. Let me bounce it back to you - kyokushin is supposed to be practical (even in our bunkai). Would you consider using this position as a kamae?

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by BCook

Osu,

Thanks Shurenkan,

seems odd, im sure its out there somewhere... there are far more strange kamae positions... one of the bunkai for it is as an on guard position.... so you would assume it had a more formal title other than kokutsu dachi with shuto chudan uchi uke and shuto jodan uke...

I would not take a bunkai for it to be used as a guard all that seriously.
I prefer to think of it as shuto jodan uke, shuto jodan uchi uchi for basic-level practical application, but it does not have a kamae (guard) name. it just a "after completed technique" position.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by Martin H

it just a "after completed technique" position.

Martin -that is beautifully put. It is exactly that!

[Dent]

Osu!

I see a couple of Nukite variations in this movement, as well as a catch and pull through the transition. Tougher to describe than it is to do...

Osu!

[BCook]

wow, some great replies in there!!

i see the main application of these techniques together as a thrust out of a shoulder grab, but as always one technique (or series of techniques together) has many many bunkai...

thank you all for your comments

i particularly like the 'after completed technique' position

[supergroup7]

Osu.. I would like to offer a suggested bunkai from one of my Internet Martial arts friends, Shihan Colin Wee stated:

"I'll have to say that this could be a possible Sankyo in response to a restraint coming from the back of the practitioner. If you raise your hands, with elbows flared, the attacker's arms go around your shoulders. This allows you to grip the attacker's heel palm. His fingers should be pointing to the ground, and the wrist crank is applied in a corkscrew manner inwards, towards him. " Taken from The Martial Arts Curator Forum

A Sankyo technique looks like

this:

For more information on the Sankyo move defense against a knife you can read this Aikido page. I can see a distinct similar movement in the Sankyo defense against a knife, and the opening moves of Pinan Sono Yon. Shihan Wee is suggesting that the attacker is coming from the back, and attempting to put you into a controlled " bear hug".

You can see a video depicting something similar at this url, you will have to go directly there because it will not allow embeding, nor will it play on the forum. You need only to search zglWdTtgxtI to see Aikido Basics: Wrist Lock Twist: Aikido Sankyo Rear Bear Hug Defense.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by supergroup7

Osu.. I would like to offer a suggested bunkai from one of my Internet Martial arts friends, Shihan Colin Wee stated:

[i]"I'll have to say that this could be a possible Sankyo in response to a restraint coming from the back of the practitioner. If you raise your hands, with elbows flared, the attacker's arms go around your shoulders. This allows you to grip the attacker's heel palm. His fingers should be pointing to the ground, and the wrist crank is applied in a corkscrew manner inwards, towards him.

My opinion is that any defense against a gripping attack from the rear, that does not take into account the potential for an arm looping around the throat is probably flawed.

My most natural reaction to the move suggested would be to go for the throat/ neck. The position of the hips for the Kamae would add to this. IMO, the lack of an obvious follow-up technique suggests that the defense/ offense are one.

Osu!

[supergroup7]

Osu Dent,

I did my friend a disservice by not adding a statement that he made farther into the discussion, which echoes your concept of "... the lack of an obvious follow-up technique suggests that the defense/ offense are one.".

Shihan Wee added "If you perform it like a sankyo, it will result in a good throw of the opponent who is trying to restrain your hands from behind. Otherwise it becomes a wrist break! "

Osu Dent.. one of the concerns I had about the Bear hug defense from the back is how the defender would pop the arms up into the neck/throat area ( if successful in lowering their center of balance, and raising their arms quickly enough..) My guess is that at this point, the defender would already have the attacker's wrist in hand, have them unbalanced, and be spinning them into the wrist lock. I did notice that the Aikido Sankyo defense from a bear hug has the defender shifting over to the right/left when popping up the attacker's arms, perhaps this is what defends against a choke?

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by supergroup7

Osu Dent,

I did my friend a disservice by not adding a statement that he made farther into the discussion, which echoes your concept of "... the lack of an obvious follow-up technique suggests that the defense/ offense are one.".

Shihan Wee added "If you perform it like a sankyo, it will result in a good throw of the opponent who is trying to restrain your hands from behind. Otherwise it becomes a wrist break! "

I'm sorry, but I'm still unable to grasp your opening sequence to make it work. The defense against the double hand grip to the wrist/ palm as in Sankyo, is to use the opponent's body as a base, thus negating the turn, and relieving the pressure. The other arm would by now be in an ideal position to continue an attack in either a forward or backward direction.

How is the defender supposed to lock onto the arm without risking his, literal, neck?

Osu!

[supergroup7]

Osu Dent

I will ask my friend how it all works, and get back to you. :-)

Osu

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by supergroup7

Osu Dent

I will ask my friend how it all works, and get back to you. :-)

Osu

Thanks, Supergroup7. I should message Colin myself too. I haven't seen him in years.

Osu!