whats the point of katas?

[bitterbut]

outside of the other answers what about this...

Kata as we know now it is much different than they where onced used back in the day before say 1890's or 1790's......

Kata was a tool of learning each move and application of the actual break [now known as block today] strike etc....

Yes we may see them as the same but the application was far more different do to the acuale moves learned where the techns one would really use in a true fight [not to confuse with a match in any form used today knockdown or not].
As times changed for good or bad so did kata as well the knowledge those teaching the kata also change [mostly for the worse not better] This example is highjly noted in Shotokan as the katas they use even today where made up not taught directly or came from memory of watching them done....
This also effected every other style from that time [some to mention Goju, Wado, etc] As well this is true to every style of Karate no matter who or what they are or came from.

I'd like to use the example of teaching, we show the students how to do each punch and kick, block the exacte way we wish them to do it. Yet many if not everyone do not do it exactly the way you show and ask them even after months or years for some people. Kata would have been no different even to the students back then EVEN if they became well know or great Sensei's years latter they where not always great nor where they always knowledgable students.

Now of course this is one man's think based or 40 years of Kaerate, though 40 years does not make me a man that knows more than those training less just a understanding of how it may or could have been

But Kata has its purpose even in todays times, I've always disliked it, but never not did them to my personal 100% each and everytime. Because that is how I was taught... if you are going to do it like it or not do it to your best ability one never knows who is watching or what you may gain from it.

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

as with all things, it's the effort one puts into it. and, it's how it is presented to you from your instructors. overtime people will perform movements differently, just like walking, running. we all learn kicks and punches and we modify them to fit our bodies. same with kata. there is no one interpretation that students are going to get. when i application of techniques, i give several examples. i tell people to keep an open mind and experiment on their own. we're like musicians. they all learn the notes, but play different songs.

[harukaze]

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

Thai style muay thai "Kiai" can actually sound silly...different noises for almost every different kind of strike from every seasoned Thai Thaiboxer I trained with (talking lumpini/rajadamner champs). Yes, it rubbed off on me a bit where I make a "oshh" sound for my "bombs" and other different types of sounds for punches, knees, kicks, etc. This can also be a tool for setting a 'rythm', too.

Yeah, I still scream "dee!" when I clinch knee and I still make that funky "ngan" or "aasshh" sound on power roundhouses.
Feels good to have somebody understand where I'm coming from instead of looking at me funny

[senshido]

It took me many years to realize the benefit of kata, all I wanted to do for many years was fight.
But eventually I came to realize that good kata is an essential part of training.

In my Opinion:
Doing kata "parrot fashion" (by this I mean just copying moves) does not give you the feeling required to make you want to do more. You have to 'feel' the kata working for you
Kata has to be performed hundreds (maybe thousands) of times for this to happen, just being told what you are doing in a particular part of the kata is not enough, as I said earlier you have to feel this working for yourself. without this feeling you will never enjoy the kata.

[Kansetsu]

There are several lines of thought on the purpose of Katas...

My thoughts and beliefs comes from one of these lines of opinions...Katas in my opinion are what most of people above me has said. It teaches one the basics, form and function. However, beyond that, Katas were meant to be trained constantly. So much so that it becomes second nature. You see, when a martial artist gets to a certain understanding level of the art, one starts to break down techniques...this includes Katas. As you have trained the Kata so much, the movements become instinct and second nature. At this point, you already know the movements, you start to break it down...and you take apart the kata. When you get into a fight situation with one or more opponents, you take pieces of kata and you put it into use. You said you have trained MMA...that means you have done ground fighting and grappling. you have done drills with certain movements on the ground to either escape or set people up in combinations. Those combinations always don't work 1 2 3...but instead you take 1 and 2 from one combination, then add 4 and 5 from another combination then add the 3 from the first etc etc. This is what i believe Kata is designed for. Drills of combinations that you can take apart, and choose and pick which parts to use in a particular situtation.

Now as for the Kiai...I have been training in breathing for about 10 years now...and i will share with you what i know. Many people think Kiai is silly, stupid, or not necessary. The Kiai that you hear in the dojo or in some other places...are the very first step of what is the true science behind the Kiai. As you train higher and higher in breathing and movement, the Kiai...becomes quieter and quieter until it is internalized. You have said that when you Kiai your abs relax, and you become open...then i will tell you without being ashamed...that you are doing your Kiai Wrong (i rarely say this word...but yes). Kiai comes from your center...using your belly breathing...also known as Tanden Breathing. When you Kiai, you don't kiai with the air in your lungs, instead you compress your lower organs towards the lower stomach. (although, i can tell you, this becomes more and more difficult as you grow tired...) I can get further into this, but it is difficult to describe or relay without me actually showing you and you feeling it. But without boasting, when i get my Kiai correctly set, i can have Dent kick me in the stomach and it will not effect me as much as it would have with me doing the 'shhh shhh' breathing when i get gassed and tired.

OSU! this was a bit winded...sorry everyone for rambling on...

[kankudai]

kata is good for balance, techniques, flexing the muscles, can be used to do cardio(just do the kankudai 10 times without rest).
KATA is what kyokushin karateka's united.

[bobh]

Originally Posted by kyofighter

Sounds that you would do better at kickboxing - muay thai.
Honestly, why botter with karate ?
Do what feels better for you.

I heard Hanshi Steve Arneil once say just about the same thing.

Originally Posted by blazindave

This is a very ignorant comment.

um.... yeah.

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

as a karateka and former pro fighter, i see the study of kata as a science. initially one learns the moves or pattern. the focus of kihon and kata are to learn the transfer of body weight into techniques. exaggerations to teach one how to generate power. the basic blocks and strikes are exactly that at early stages. once the student gets an understanding of the basics, then then he/she can learn how to apply the blocks as strikes, locks, take downs, etc.

katas are aesthetic interpretations of combat principles. for example, in kendo, the head strike (men) is taught by having the kendoka swing the shinai back until it touches the back and with the step the strike stops at the top of the head. but, when the kendoka free spars the swing of the shinai is shorter. as one advances in the study of kata, he/she will see that the hikite or chambering hand represents the pulling hand of a technique. when both hands chamber to one's side, something is being pulled (i.e. joint lock). i think that this training along with free sparring (because sparring is where one learns timing, distancing, and reaction time) develops a well rounded martial artist.

kata and shadow boxing are not the same. katas are blue prints to combat created by karate fighters of the past. this is another reason why they are practiced. look at caporeira and wushu. they are artistic interpretations of ancient fighting arts. people always want to look at forms and judge whether this or that will work in a fight. an artist looks beyond fighting when perfecting kata. the focus needed for such takes years and dedication.

Good post! There is so much more to kata than we used to be told. Google Ian Abernathy (for just one great resource).

Speaking of Hanshi Steve Arneil, he was once asked a question about how he trained for 100-man kumite. He told us "Kata. Kata uphill, kata downhill, kata, kata , kata," while shaking his head and looking down (as if remembering ) I found that answer fascinating.

[Dent]

Osu!

I think that single-minded Kata training (The nearly obsessive kind. Where both form and function are expressed by the practitioner.) will carry over well to fighting. I find Kata far more difficult and demanding.

Kumite can always end when you go bowl over tea-kettle, but Kata only finishes when we choose to. The test is one-sided, and easier to fail.

Osu!