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10-26-2007, 03:21 PM
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#21
By reading your posts I believe that you disagree with the disire for money being greater than the desire to better your self. You are not destroying it with allowing people to fight as pros. Professionalsare not there for the money in most cases.
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10-26-2007, 03:33 PM
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#22
 Koji - not quite. I actually don't mind at all if people want money - heck, I decreased my training so I could go off an earn a decent living.... If I had to sum up why I don't like the commercial pathway it is that commercial interests control what happens...the promoters (generally) are not practitioners, and it is their motivation to earn money (sometimes at any cost), and the fact that they are accountable ultimately only to the market, that creates a vulnerabilty to an unpleasant, undignified environment. However, this is a risk, not an inevitability. I'd have absolutely no problem with prizemoney in traditional tournaments, because you are right, it wouldn't be about the money. And neither are those tournaments designed to be primarily a spectator sport. That would be incidental.
__________________
Wisdom prevents mistakes. But you have to make mistakes to get the wisdom. 
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10-26-2007, 04:47 PM
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#23
i don't think fighters go into kickboxing or mma just for money. they are just seeking other avenues to test themselves. if a fighter reaches a high level of success in one discipline they may decide to cross over to another fighting sport. they first of all have to have a strong desire to do it. it is not just for money, because very few fighters make a lot of money. all fighters are interested in fighting in other disciplines. unfortunately, many styles (or instructors) aren't supportive of the fighters doing other things.
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10-26-2007, 06:16 PM
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#24
Now you made some points more clear. Of course i agree when you say the fighters must be the priority. But it's a business as well and it has risks involved. A fight being canceled or the all event is one. The fighters as professionals must be aware of that. There's money at stake.
Anyways you didn't tell what is your opinion regarding Ishigeki. It's a Kyokushin promotion and there's money involved. If the fighters can make a living out of it what's the problem? Besides it's also a way of geting more fighting experience and become more well rounded. A fighter who only trains standup fighting will only learn the importance of groundfighting if he fights in a MMA match. Of course i'm not expecting to find much philosophy in the average MT gym in western societies since most guys there only learn to fight and not much else, but hard training makes the students become more humble and less violent so there's a positive aspect in it. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone. And i know a lotta guys in MT/Kickboxing gym are tough kids who come from the ghettos and bring in some bad habits (and i don't implie that all ghetto kids are like that but usually that's the case, at least where i live). But you also need to take into account that a vast majority of these people who join MT gym don't last much long in there. Sometimes because they get in trouble with the police, do drugs, find a job, realize they don't have the skills or just show no respect in the gym. Most people i find in Kyokushin Karate don't come from those backgrounds. What i mean is that you'll find more often in MT kids (and adults of course) who come from ruff backgrounds than in Kyokushin Karate or any other traditional japanese martial arts. At least that's what the empyrical evidences point to. I'm saying this based in my experience in this country, Holland, Belgium and France. And if you go to Thailand things are even more extreme as you have kids fighting in the ring for money with no protection gear. Of course i'm against this since i find these kids should be in school and not fighting for their lives at that age. Osu!
__________________
\"The proud dragon nurses regret. When something reaches fullness it cannot last.\" (The Book Of Changes)
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10-27-2007, 01:42 PM
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10-27-2007, 02:07 PM
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#26
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__________________
Wisdom prevents mistakes. But you have to make mistakes to get the wisdom.
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10-27-2007, 02:23 PM
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#27
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So what if they push you out of the org; the org; does not make you, you make the org; as a member. Though I don't totally agree with Pro fighting and such, I still can understand that those who wish to do so should and not follow those who say not to. But I also understand Sosai's thinking about the change of the person once money comes into play as well. Big quandary is it not?!? But it all boils down to making ones own choices.
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10-27-2007, 02:39 PM
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#28
Of course it's okay to fight when money is involved as long as it doesn't the spirit of fighting and the fighter's mentality.
Of course if someone who has no spriritual training get in the ring for money, it possible that this person will break the rules (by using steroids, illegal moves etc...) if necessary just to win a match.
__________________
\"The proud dragon nurses regret. When something reaches fullness it cannot last.\" (The Book Of Changes)
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10-27-2007, 02:39 PM
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#29
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in some ways, we make fighters more vulnerable if we cut them loose and abandon them "to the wolves". Sad really, and I agree, it is a big quandary!
__________________
Wisdom prevents mistakes. But you have to make mistakes to get the wisdom.
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10-27-2007, 02:40 PM
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#30
I meant as long as it doesnt change the fighting spirit. Sorry
__________________
\"The proud dragon nurses regret. When something reaches fullness it cannot last.\" (The Book Of Changes)
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10-28-2007, 01:52 PM
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#31
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10-31-2007, 11:43 PM
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#32
I believe I am changing my mind.
I have just read parts of this link. Couture saga brings owner out of shadows - MMA - Yahoo! Sports Completely rediculos. I guess money does change some people. I have little respect for people like that. Countor is fighting just for the money. Fighters are making millions of dollars in their careers. It seems that if they weren't then they would not do it. Sosai is right. I'm sorry I douted him. Osu!
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10-31-2007, 11:56 PM
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#33
Anyway, Hug, Greco, theese powerful men had however spread the Kyokushin name around the world, also on the ring or K1 ecc. That name who have followed their fighter way, their budo way, taking to a part all the politics or personal or professional reasons concerned.
A fighter must go on, so that his carreer, and until he can show his powerful to the eyes of the world and he fight in the way like Andy Hug's one, it's ok.
__________________
Strive on! Be the greatest you can be.
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10-31-2007, 11:59 PM
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#34
Os Koji - thanks for posting this. Obviously, this is an exceptional case - I don't think that all the fighters are in this league of earnings.
I don't mind them making millions - I'm a bit jealous, but heck - they can have it. No skin off my nose. The things in that link that struck me were that the promoters are casino owners, not karateka, and that even they "own" their fighters - more rigidly than Kyokushin does - contracts worth $$$$, enforceable in courts. also - think on this. If the fighters are being paid that much money, how much are the promoters making? And what lengths will they go to, to preserve that income stream? When this kind of haggling over $ becomes public, I am pleased that Kyokushin is at arms length. The amounts changing hands are truly staggering, and in that environment, it is pretty much the same as pro boxing. I feel sorry for fighters who enter this world unprepared, and encounter the harsh reality only after they have signed away their rights. The exclusivity clause in most of the contracts means that a fighter can only walk away to obscurity if they fall out with promoters. They cannot transfer to another organisation. And they probably could not compete in a traditional tournament, even if the tournament rules would allow them to compete.
__________________
Wisdom prevents mistakes. But you have to make mistakes to get the wisdom.
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11-01-2007, 01:45 AM
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#35
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UFC is for professionals. There's money involved. If you want to make a living by fighting you need to make good money. There's no problem with that. Being a fighter doesn't mean you can't be business man at the same time. You're being too radical here. And nobody gets in the ring just for money. MMA requires a lot of dedication and love for the sport. You need to enjoy fighting. There's a challenge involved. And even if they did do it just for the money, as long as they respect themselves and the opponent, i see no problem. You also have to consider that many of these guys have families. There's no point training all day long if you can't support your family. That's what the Thais do (even though they're totally explored). And by the way Couture left the UFC because is 44 and he's looking for Fedor and now signed with M-1 which will make that fight happen. He wants to retire but first he whishes to beat the one man who's considered to be the best MMA fighter ever. So don't start saying bad stuff about him without knowing exactly what you're talking about.
__________________
\"The proud dragon nurses regret. When something reaches fullness it cannot last.\" (The Book Of Changes)
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11-01-2007, 02:03 AM
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#36
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That's the reason why Fedor didn't sigh with UFC. He wishes to continue competing in Sambo tournaments while keeping the possibility of fighting for different organisations. M-1 gives provided Fedor those conditions plus a good salary.
__________________
\"The proud dragon nurses regret. When something reaches fullness it cannot last.\" (The Book Of Changes)
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11-01-2007, 04:40 AM
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#37
Quite possibly I have overlooked somethings. Yes Randy is an amazing fighter ,and at 44 and a heavy wight champion, he inspires most fighters.
There are a lot of reasons for retiring. Age is one he would most likely use. However, in this article ( if I read it right) it seems to be that the reason why he quit is because he did not get paid for his victory. If so then this means that he wanted money more then the fight. This of course is just what I'm thinking right now. I'm mostly waiting to be corrected. OSU!
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11-01-2007, 01:20 PM
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#38
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Ahh, Yes people do get in the ring just for the money!!! I bet %50 to %60 of the time, possible much higher. And a Pro is someone who gets paid for their play, that does not make them the best at it or the smartest, just someone who is willing to play the sport full time for money $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$! Pro sports is a job, no different than yours or mine except, we watch it and foolishly pay to watch it. The difference between Kyokushin K/D (as Sosai tried to make it) and Pro fighting, is that the poor guy has much more spirit and vigor when he stands on the mat. The struggles of paying for his training, and everything to get him to the tourney. That is why all the fighters who made it to the tourney did not pay for their flight, hotel, or meals... This is a huge difference between pro and amateur, and unless you have ever been faced with it you have no idea how it is or what goes through your head!!!!!! You know the old saying "walk a mile in my shoes" It is no different than Football, Soccer, Boxing, Baseball, Basketball, Hockey...and MMA! Hundreds if not thousands do it just for the money, it is something we humans do, it is part of our greed make-up and it is also linked to our war like manarisume... We as humans have a driven at a young age (15-28) to take over the tribe, when we are not in that type of environment it is often transfered into sports, work, politics, or family life and sadly war. Hence the popularity of Pro sports and politicians. Parents push their children to play sports from a very young age 4-6 in hopes that someday they make the big leagues and the MONEY and fame that comes with it. This is basic psychology and if you learned Karate as a balanced art you would have learned this, when you where learning how to kick or punch. Since understand man is equal to understanding Kihon, Kata or Kumite in the M/A's. This is often the problem with todays Karate, people do not learn a complete, balanced foundation of Karate. A few kicks and blocks and your a fighter an a yudansha, who knows all about everything past, present and future and everyones else's mind set to boot.
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11-01-2007, 10:45 PM
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#39
A very interesting post. I don't mind people gaining from there arts( If they were not paid then they could not do it.) But that is different then the people who say they wish to breck necks and cash checks.
I have only one question. How is the financial life of a karateka who fights in world tournaments different then the people in MMA events. How much would they get paid as compared to the millions for MMA.
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11-01-2007, 10:52 PM
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