kyokushin conversion. No return?

[koji112091]

That's what I wanted to hear. They risk brain damage and other injuries just for the love of the art. If kyokushin can do this then so can MMA. I believe that this stengthens the philosophy of the "Ultimate Truth."
Great Post. Osu!

[Spirit]

On TV you only see the top fights or close to the top fights. Yet their is a backyard fighting grounds at state fairs and other types of venues where the grunts get started, as everyone needs to work through.
Some (MMA) get lucky and get picked up quickly while others get to banged up to make it to the top etc.

While Sosai (not kyokushin) did see the WT as bringing in fighters from all respected countries to fight and show him what they had, (as well seeing what was out thier at the AJT), is key to what the differences was back then. Only Kick-boxing was around back then and that was not to lucrative and in the USA it was really poor in the 70's.

Rember people like Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace and others where top (ahh lack of a better word) fighters then (in some circles).
Thought their was other fighters like Benny "The Jet" etc who really changed the fight game and brought quality to it.


K/D is a different animal than other types of tourney's it controls the rules, and the sponsorship (back then) was focused on the Honbu and bringing in the fighters.
Though it was marred with much controversy and only the fighters got the poor end of the seeding structure it was still a great tourney.

Today as they try to keep that focus on the amateur fighter (as well marketing for each IKO that runs a big tourney) it still has a flair for the competitive side and anyone (unknown) can win with good spirit and determination on their side.

MMA, and MMA Pro fighting is so different that I would consider it a completely different sport than Karate. Like comparing a car to motorcycle both have engines, wheels and seats but that is where it ends.

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by Spirit

sonik, I'm not directing this post at you, you just brought up something that I could make a comment off of.....

Ahh, Yes people do get in the ring just for the money!!! I bet %50 to %60 of the time, possible much higher.
And a Pro is someone who gets paid for their play, that does not make them the best at it or the smartest, just someone who is willing to play the sport full time for money $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!
Pro sports is a job, no different than yours or mine except, we watch it and foolishly pay to watch it.

The difference between Kyokushin K/D (as Sosai tried to make it) and Pro fighting, is that the poor guy has much more spirit and vigor when he stands on the mat. The struggles of paying for his training, and everything to get him to the tourney. That is why all the fighters who made it to the tourney did not pay for their flight, hotel, or meals...

This is a huge difference between pro and amateur, and unless you have ever been faced with it you have no idea how it is or what goes through your head!!!!!!
You know the old saying "walk a mile in my shoes"

It is no different than Football, Soccer, Boxing, Baseball, Basketball, Hockey...and MMA!
Hundreds if not thousands do it just for the money, it is something we humans do, it is part of our greed make-up and it is also linked to our war like manarisume...

We as humans have a driven at a young age (15-28) to take over the tribe, when we are not in that type of environment it is often transfered into sports, work, politics, or family life and sadly war.

Hence the popularity of Pro sports and politicians.
Parents push their children to play sports from a very young age 4-6 in hopes that someday they make the big leagues and the MONEY and fame that comes with it.
This is basic psychology and if you learned Karate as a balanced art you would have learned this, when you where learning how to kick or punch. Since understand man is equal to understanding Kihon, Kata or Kumite in the M/A's. This is often the problem with todays Karate, people do not learn a complete, balanced foundation of Karate. A few kicks and blocks and your a fighter an a yudansha, who knows all about everything past, present and future and everyones else's mind set to boot.

I think you're wrong. A lotta people go for the challenge and the adrenaline. I've been into professional Kikcboxing (only here in Portugal) and man i didn't make any good money. The only chance here to make money is to join K-1 or some of the big promotions. You must notice that the K-1 fever is something recent. But if you look at Muay Thai legends of the 80's and early 90's such as Rob Kaman or Ramon Dekkers, man those guys fought in Thailand and you bet they didn't make any good money there. Maybe enough to pay the trip and the hotel but not more than that. Those guys went there just for the challenge. To face the Thais. This is pure fighting spirit. Even bigger than winning is the fact that they showed the Thais that Boxing can make a difference there. They influenced Muay Thai by adding Boxing skills to their game.


And by the way Filho and Feitosa also fight in K-1. Of course they like the money. It's like i said, you can be a fighter and business man as well. No harm there (really)!. But they're not there just for the money. They want to make a point above all. To show the spirit of Kyokushin Karate and to improve their fighting skills (and become champions of course). This lead them to learn and adapt Kickboxing and Boxing to their Kyokushin Karate skills. Just like Kenji Kurosaki and his followers did in the 60's and 70's. These guys to me symbolise the essence of Kyokushin Karate. They learn everything they can and incorporte in into Kyokushin Karate. Afterall it Sosai himself who said that one of the main ideas of Kyokushin Karate was to gather the most efficient fighting technqiues from all fighting styles into one style only.

[hasbeen]

seienchin i don`t disagree with your moral stand on this however......how about this way of thinking. "you think you guys are hard-the strongest karate but you wouldn`t live with a pro-kickboxer"....i heard this a lot in years gone by..."you only do it for fun,these guys are serious"

i think the likes of filho,feitosa and hug have enhanced the reputation of people that practice kyokushin and may of added to it`s increased popularity with their undoubted skill and the way they have conducted themselves which indirectly benefits everybody within kyokushin.

if i had their ability i would want to see if i was good enough to take these guys on and beat them at their own game[the dreams are in another thread!]

i do agree we should respect our past and everything that goes with it but can you see my point?

[seienchin]

hasbeen - I can see your point. And the reputation of the style is its future. however, I actually don't care a rat's *?#@* what people think of me as an individual, in terms of whether I am tough (or not) because I do kyokushin and not kickboxing. I didn't choose kyokushin because it is the "strongest karate", and I didn't stay because of that. And I don't think I am alone.

I think the kyokushin recipe is a winner. It has much broader participant appeal than kickboxing, because it can offer something to everyone. And well marketed, I actually think that even our tournaments make better spectator fare - but that is a matter of personal taste.

But I do see your point.

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by seienchin

hasbeen - I can see your point. And the reputation of the style is its future. however, I actually don't care a rat's *?#@* what people think of me as an individual, in terms of whether I am tough (or not) because I do kyokushin and not kickboxing. I didn't choose kyokushin because it is the "strongest karate", and I didn't stay because of that. And I don't think I am alone.

I think the kyokushin recipe is a winner. It has much broader participant appeal than kickboxing, because it can offer something to everyone. And well marketed, I actually think that even our tournaments make better spectator fare - but that is a matter of personal taste.

But I do see your point.

and i see yours

[koji112091]

Sorry to make this seem like a merygoround but I was wondering something probably stated many times.
When One goes into professional fighting does that mean he or she can not even train with his or her old kyokushin dojo.
I know that this differs between organizations but what do you think the majority of organizations will allow.

I was also thinking of something else. If one stayed in kyokushin and never switched to something else, can he or she make a decent career off of it.

Even for the martial artist the place of money can not be ignored but one should not become attached to it. Mas Oyama
I realize that most charge for the lessons they give but do you need a second job.
In a book I read, Mas Oyama talks about professional karate-ka not needing a second job. He also says some other stuff which has been changed over time like head punching.

To summarize my second question, I should say something like...
In most of the world tournaments, do fighters get paid to support their lives as kyokushinkai karatekas?

If not, I admire the devotion and time taken off to fight. If they were paid , however, it will increase the skill of the karate ka. Mostly because they do not have to support themselves by working at burger king or something like that.

What do you think.

[Spirit]

Well if everyone is going to quote Sosai, I guess I'll through this one out

We have plenty of fighters in Kyokushin, more than we need. What we don't have is plenty of good teachers in Kyokushin.

To many look at the sport side of Kyokushin as Kyokushin, it is just the most visual.

[koji112091]

I agree. We need more teachers(deffenately down here). But mabey a good fighter will become a teacher.
My main reason for asking these questions is not for the sake of money or more fighters. I was just wondering how it can be possible for me to do nothing but kyokushin.

[koji112091]

Ok I heard something which strongly contridicts the "no pro" rule.

IKO1 has a deal with K-1 that only fighters from IKO1 can have the name of kyokushin when they fight.

So let me get this straight, there are people in the K-1 which have kyokushin listed as their style, This can only happen if they belong to IKO1. But if they join a professional fight then they have left kyokushin.
So how can they have kyokushin listed as thier style if they are not a part of the IKO1 because they have left to fight in the K-1.

Of course there must be something I'm missing. A paradox this big could not function in this world as well as the K-1 currently does. So could you clue me in if you have not already.
OSU!

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by koji112091

Ok I heard something which strongly contridicts the "no pro" rule.

IKO1 has a deal with K-1 that only fighters from IKO1 can have the name of kyokushin when they fight.

So let me get this straight, there are people in the K-1 which have kyokushin listed as their style, This can only happen if they belong to IKO1. But if they join a professional fight then they have left kyokushin.
So how can they have kyokushin listed as thier style if they are not a part of the IKO1 because they have left to fight in the K-1.

Of course there must be something I'm missing. A paradox this big could not function in this world as well as the K-1 currently does. So could you clue me in if you have not already.
OSU!

Simple.
Not all groups stick to the traditional "no-Pro-fighting" rule that was firmly enforced when Oyama Sosai was alive..
Some give special dispensation from the rule to selected fighters sent out to "carry the banner high" (IKO1), other groups have abandoned it altogether (kyokushin budo kai).
Others apparently chose not notice that their fighters do pro fights (I know of a few cases in IKO2 and 3).
Others have quit the kyokushin organizations, to be independent (not having to answer to any of the organization rules), but still does the kyokushin style.

But in k-1, only those who have special dispensation from IKO1 are allowed to use the kyokushin name. Anyone else are labeled as generic "karate" without a style listed.

[Davidkyokushinstudent]

Very well explained Seienchin, I agree with you 100%
Pro & Kyokushin should stay seperate. I thought Seidokan offered a stepping stone from Kyokushin to the ring. Maybee there should be a poll on this subject to see where the majority lies?

[jcbel]

I guess Sosai felt that money is too great a temptation.

Not to downplay Shihan Ishii's accomplishments (Seidokaikan) but he is currently serving a jail term for tax evasion. And I know for a fact that even in regular dojos it is very tempting for people to dip their hands into the pot...

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by seienchin

I like the rule. I am with Sosai 100% on this.

I know it sounds rigid and purist, but westernised kickboxing (including K1 etc) is commercial entertainment. That's all. It is run so that the promoters can make money out of the the spectators and the fighters. And in much of the kickboxing world, (especially the westernised versions) nobody much cares if you are a bully or a thug, as long as you win fights. Even in Thailand, from the spectator perspective, it is about the betting and the money- there is no respect in the general public for the spiritual side of Muay Thai, even though the fighters themselves observe many of the traditions.

Can you imagine a reputable Samurai selling his skills solely for entertainment? It would dishonour him and his art.

I have fought in one such commercially promoted tournament (albeit not pure kickboxing), and I felt really slimed by the whole experience, even though I won. Never repeated it. It was sleazy and undignified, and I regret allowing my training to be exploited by an unethical promoter. It is utterly inconsistent with the tenets of the dojo-kun.

I don't think that a traditional art like Kyokushin, which endeavours to have a spiritual side to it's philosophy, has anything in common with kickboxing other than the physical techniques we use. And for a traditional martial artist, the physical domain is merely a tool, not an end in itself.

"Although it is important to study and train for skill in techniques, for the man who wishes to truly accomplish the way of Budo, it is more important to make his whole life in training, and therefore not aiming for skill and strength alone, but also for spiritual attainment" - Mas Oyama.

So I agree with Sosai - people must be free to choose, but they can't go both ways.

I think you can say that for some people in K-1, but to say most Kickboxers make a living out of a sport is a bit out of reality (you're making a generalization). Here where i live you make in a regular event about 1000 euros at most and rarely more than that unless you're in a K-1 level competition.

Fact is, most Kickboxers here don't make a living out of Kickboxing. They have to teach classes or have a full time job. So what you're saying is very unfair. A lot of people do it just because they love the sport and the challenge it represents. Some months ago (November) we had one of our athletes (Arnaldo Silva) fighting Gago Drago and even though he lost by decision he showed all his spirit there giving Drago a hard time. And do you think he has the same sponsorship as Drago or made the same money? Some Kickboxers make a lot a money yes but those are an elite. The rest have to do everything by themselves and commit a lot of sacrifices. A lot of guys i know do this for the challenge. Kickboxing or MMA is not for everyone. You gotta have a great fighting spirit to endure in such realm. And if you make money doing the things you like, what's the problem there?

If Kyokushin fighters such as Andy Hug, Sam Greco, Hiroki Kurosawa, Francisco Filho, Glaube Feitosa, Alexander Pitchkounov, Igor Peplov, Tetsuo Seto, Yoshinori Ikeda, Ryuji Nota, Nicholas Pettas, Peter Graham and others are into K-1 and MMA what's the problem with others joining these kind of competitions? Or is it just ok for these but not for the rest? Please explain.

[koji112091]

I have a quote which wil be great here.

"the group of professional karateka are the men who make their living through karate. Thay have accumulated much in the way of experience through years of hard training and continual practice. Because they perform in public competitions, they contribute beneficial and important services to the sport of karate in two ways. First since they do not have to worry about getting into a second profession with which to support themselves, they can devote all of their time and energy to perfecting their karate techniques and methods. Second, they expand public interest in the sport by demonstrating karate to interested spectators."

Mas Oyama. Karate School copy right 1975 by Kodansha Ltd. Tokyo.

I find this a very interesting quote. In this idea, Sosai expresses the importants of public competions.
It mentions the benefits of karate displays and how it can effect the propagation of karate.

My main point to this is at one time, Sosai feels that it is good to have fighters earn money from being a "pro" so that they don't need a job to support their training.
Not saying that they should be come Mayweathers but I strongly agree with this. The few people which will not be as vain will use money to support karate so karate will become stronger.

So I think that fighting in the k-1 will be a great satisfaction to Sosais idea.

[Sonik]

Nice post there Koji!


Of course you cannot cannot achieve the same level a professional fighters does these days without being a professional yourself. You can't expect to achieve a pro level if you don't train like a pro and instead have to watch out for your job. That is obvious. Being a pro these days is the only way (unles you're already rich) of fully dedicating yourself to martial arts training. Otherwise how will you support yourself and your family?

[koji112091]

Originally Posted by Sonik

Nice post there Koji!


Of course you cannot cannot achieve the same level a professional fighters does these days without being a professional yourself. You can't expect to achieve a pro level if you don't train like a pro and instead have to watch out for your job. That is obvious. Being a pro these days is the only way (unles you're already rich) of fully dedicating yourself to martial arts training. Otherwise how will you support yourself and your family?

OSU! exacly what I believe and one of my reasons to put this topic up, is to see how many people think this way. I would guess the majority does.

[JohnMc]

Originally Posted by hasbeen

i think the likes of filho,feitosa and hug have enhanced the reputation of people that practice kyokushin and may of added to it`s increased popularity with their undoubted skill and the way they have conducted themselves which indirectly benefits everybody within kyokushin.

They have enhanced Kyokushin's reputation. I'm not sure if any of you visit MMA pages but the majority of the posters look favorably on Kyokushin compared to the other karate styles. Alot of them go out of their way to reccomend Kyokushin for would be fighters or casual people that want to get inshape develop spiritual and physical toughness [They tend to reccomend MT first but they do reccommend Kyokushin if MT is not available or they want a physical style with spiritual aspects]