Kids Full Contact Or Semi?

[Deaken]

I honestly don't know a lot about specific fighting rules other than Kyokushin, but from what I do understand from them is that in full contact (Karate, Tae Kwon Do etc.) they are scored on a point system based on techniques demonstrated. Often full contact fights wear protective gear. In knockdown we score exactly as it sounds by knockdown and we do not wear protection. You can only get points from knocking the other person down, not by technique that could have done something, by technique that actually did something.

In full contact type fighting, you can still have the point style of fighting where smeone can jump in and out and touch the opponent with his fist once and get a score. In knockdown, you can punch as hard and as much as you like but it only scores on knockdown.

I myself often make the mistake of using the wrong term and Spirit is correct, we need to be careful in order that people understand the difference. Knockdown is much harder and more rigorous that full contact.

[walshy]

At what age would you consider junior students able to fight novice knockdown tournaments? Our club allows juniors over eight to enter, but they must wear gloves and head protection. My son is nine and has no interest at all in entering, and I would never push him to get on the matt. He enjoys classes and clicker fighting though, and I feel that it will be a long time before he will feel comfortable with knockdown(he is quite small for his age and boney so he tends to get hurt easily). Do you feel that Eight is too young, or does it depend on the individual? Is there an ideal age to begin knockdown?
I only ask as I want to gently encourage him when he is seeming to be ready, as he can be quite shy and nervous of new things. For example he was petrified of his first clicker tourney, but now he can't wait to enter each one!

[Olrac]

My son started his training at age 6.
At 7 he fought his first knock-down tournament.
I know some people have problems with kids fighting knock-down but we protect our kids very well. The kids have to wear gloves, chin protection, head gear, etc.
And the ref is extremely carefull with them.
The ideal age for knock-down? I think that will be different for each individual.

[tmd]

I'm not keen on Kids knockdown but it seems to be a reality so all I would say is let them do it when they are ready both physically and mentally - the best way to test this is to up the level in the dojo gradually.

what I don't like to see is kids (or adults) just swinging wild punches and kicks because with the ability to make contact so reduces the necessity to be as technically proficient - once you have a fighter who has gone down this path it is difficult to get them to see that there is more to knockdown than just punch punch kick - very difficult and then they get disheartened when a more junior fighter with greater technical skill pulls them apart, it is very difficult to undo years of bad habits especially if you've done it since you were a kid.

[Nix]

I have taken the liberty of merging the three previous posts into this thread, as they were addressing the same topic. I would like to use this occassion to promote our fantastic search function!

~ Nix

[walshy]

Originally Posted by Nix

I have taken the liberty of merging the three previous posts into this thread, as they were addressing the same topic. I would like to use this occassion to use our fantastic search function!

~ Nix

Thanks Nix, some good posts in there

[tmd]

Not visited any of the kids full or not threads recently but on Friday my 13 year old went training with his mum and sister and the Sensei decided that as he & his sister has to do 25 fights for their 1st Kyu in December they should do a quick 10 man kumite at the end.

Now I know for Kyokushin they don't look bad, I probably have at least this amount of bruising on me fairly constantly but the question is, is this acceptable on a 13 year old? He is cool about it but his thighs hurt so much he's not up to doing a semi contact tournament this afternoon (am still am bargaining with him but at present he won't budge).

I am also not so bothered (wife was fuming) but.... if he went into school on Monday and said I'd bruised him this much I'd have two Coppers on my door step before night fall and social services to explain my actions to so can it be acceptable that he gets injuries like this in a normal class, this was not in a tournament or even a knockdown class where as far as I'm concerned you get no the mat and take whatever, this was in normal class and most of the damage was done by adults.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! tmd

Terrible. No excuses for this at all. I doesn't help kids in any way to get knocked about like that.

If you're about to sort it out and need some back up - I'm in! And I'm sure lots of other dads will feel the same.

Gary

[tmd]

My initial reaction was , right next week I'll go and do a 20 man kumite and take out the lot of them but there's a caveat I left out (on purpose) most of them are low grades and because they don't do a lot of semi contact work they don't know their own strength or how to spar with juniors so my main gripe is with the Sensei, but I'm trying not to over react.

My other issue is we have been working toward this Clicker tournament so he's not even been doing knockdown sparing recently - he is not the best built kid and we have discussed the fact that Kyokushin and knockdown are intertwined but he and his mum are set on no knockdown till 16 and I respect the ideal that it his him and him alone that can decide to step on that mat I will never push him only ever support him, it is not for a Sensei that hardly knows him to decide to test him so randomly.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! tmd

I'm speaking as a loving father here, not as a karate instructor. If one of my children attended any sport or activity where they got hurt, I'd want to know that it was purely an accident and safety measures where immediately put in place to ensure no re-occurence.

If I found the coach or instructor was negligent, or worse had caused or allowed the injury, he would have a lot to answer for - either to me or to the courts depending on how apologetic he was about the whole sad event.

I would never take my child there again - although in this case I doubt he'd now be looking forward to his 25 man kumite (who the hell dreamed that up for a child?) so he's probably made his own decision.

Gary

[seienchin]

One of the bits of wisdom I have picked up over the years is the truth of the saying "incompetence is more common than conspiracy". I can see that this might be the case here.

I would suggest that you document the bruising with photographs (like the one you have shown us), and take them along to the Sensei. I suspect (hope) that he/she will be every bit as appalled as the rest of us.

If your lad is a tough little cookie (and I suspect he is) then he won't have made much of a fuss while this was going on, and the Sensei may have absolutely no idea of how much contact was really being delivered. Incompetent - absolutely. Deliberate - I doubt it, but I accept I could be wrong.

Above all, don't just do nothing. Otherwise, nothing will change.

[ksan]

did your daughter sufferer the same injuries? If not why is that ?

[jcc]

Osu! tmd,

I agree with seienchin that this must have been caused more by incompetence than anything, but also shows the danger of letting kids train/fight with adults, especially of a lower grade, who most probably do not have the necessary control over their techniques. I think a serious talk with the Sensei involved must be the answer. If he didn´t see what was happening, then he was not doing his job!

Osu!

[tmd]

Originally Posted by ksan

did your daughter sufferer the same injuries? If not why is that ?

She did get a nasty bang on her knee which also caused her to miss todays comp. but at nearly 17 she is much more of a fighter than my 13 year old, she moves better and has much more in the way of defensive moves - he has less stamina and just didn't block or move enough - I am working with him and he will, one day be a decent fighter.

I agree with you Seienchin; there's more incompetency here than malicious intent and I put this up as much for others as myself - I think a picture speaks a 1000 words and knew it would get more of a reaction than me saying my boy got a bruised arm; I think there's a line and I was just wondering if it were crossed in a dojo what should happen and too who; as I said if this were inflicted by a parent at home they would have the social services breathing down their neck but knocks and bangs in sports are ok so long as they are accidental - how do we gauge this in a dojo?

I have spoken to the kids and my wife again today and the funny thing is I have more of a problem with it than them so maybe I have misread it, who knows, anyway the agreed actions are:

Firstly; When asked why they didn't do the comp. today we explain that they were too battered from Fridays session so not up to it, let be fair if you were having a knockdown tournament on the Sunday you'd not do a contact session on the Friday so why would it be any different for a Clicker tournament!

Secondly; We have told the kids that knockdown is always optional even in the dojo - if they don't want to do it sit it out.

Thirdly; if the are sparing with someone who is going too heavy simply step back and say stop - easier said than done IMO in a kyokushin dojo.

I still ask though who if anyone is at fault not necessarily here but if the line is crossed - the kids for not speaking up sooner, the Sensei for not controlling the level of contact or the adults who hit kids too hard though a lack of self control or is it just that you combine all three and this is always going to happen, just an excepted risk of doing kyokushin?

[Nix]

You say that the older sister and mother was present, and they were okay with it? Were you present yourself? I'm not nescesarilly saying you are wrong here, but keep in mind some people are very easilly bruised. I was once sparring with a friend of mine. She always took initiative, and kept going at me. One day I saw her without the gi-top, and was quite shocked to see how beaten up she looked. Both of her arms were enitrelly dark purple with red in it. Apparently her teachers had also noticed, and were worried someone might have hurt her. She herself merely shrugged it off as no big deal. In contrast, I only get faint bruises, and rarely even that, despite that I'm more often than not on the receiving end of punches and kicks.

May I ask how the 25-men kumite are administered, and for what rank? It's probably a good idea with kumite-practice to prepare for a grading, but I'd personally say 25-men kumite is a lot for such a young student. I also think the opponents should be based on the individual student, to match skill and size. I also find it very odd to schedule it right before a tournament.

Osu!

[tmd]

Wife and daughter were around but also training - he wasn't complaining at the time and took it well enough but that's not the point I'm raising. I bruise easy so maybe he does too Nix, wait a minute let me just push him down the stairs as a control - as I said I'm not necessarily using this as an example of excessive, more asking: is it? if so why - what is acceptable etc, part of the reason for this is as I do Kyokushin and know what it's about am I letting too much go here?

The 25 man kumite is for 1st Kyu and this is always spit - seniors and juniors so I have no real issue there and as I said - he'll be trained and prepared for that.

[tmd]

Spoke to my Sensei who in turn spoke to the Sensei concerned - He sought out my daughter at the tournament (which we both got 2nd her legs were a little slow due to the Friday night session, I think on her day she'd have gone 1 better.) and asked her to pass on to my boy how sorry he was and how he would look to be more aware in the future of having kids in an adult class. The guy is a nice guy and I know this was not done to upset anyone - I have actually removed the picture as in hindsight I was a bit quick of the mark - let that be a warning to anyone who ever looks at my kids the wrong way , they are my world and sometimes I get a bit red misted. I apologies if my post caused any upset, just glad I didn't know where the guy lived on Saturday morning, could have really screwed things up .

I think like Dent has reported about his boy, I think some people see my son and a brown belt at that - not a 13 year old child, they can't all be like Olracs lad.

[jcc]

Osu! tmd,

Glad to hear that this has been sorted out. It´s obviously an important lesson for everyone, especially those teaching classes with kids. It could also easily happen with a ´bigger´ kid fighting a slighter built or younger one. Also, we often don´t realise how hard we are actually hitting our partners during kumite - something which has happened to me.

Osu!