Bring back open hands to head?

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Shidokanatlanta,

No-one is trying to persuade you otherwise. In any fight you are best sticking to what you train in day by day, as motor skills revert to instinct in stress situations.

I do smile at you describing these strikes as 'slapping' though. Slapping is what your girlfriend does. Having been taught (and hit) by experts I can vouch for the percussive effect and blinding speed of these strikes. The variety of angles possible also adds to the difficulty of effective defense. I have trained all over the World but so far met few combat sportsmen who'd cope with a well trained SAS trooper who wants to bury them, not put on a show. The fact they advocate the use of open-hand strikes probably means something ....

I am not knocking any combat style or rule system here. I train and teach Enshin karate and believe strongly in its benefits for mind body and spirit. I ALSO train personally in these strikes. They can be used explosively and effectively without warm-up in a confined space the instant they are required, so on that basis alone are well worth adding to your armoury. Finally, the increasing numbers of CCTV camera's today mean punching people out may well be on tape and hard to justify in court, even in self-defence. By contrast, open hand strikes look less aggressive - especially to a doddering old judge. A pretty good case all around for practising them. Just don't teach your girlfriend.

Gary

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened"
Sir Winston Churchill
British politician (1874 - 1965)

[jcc]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu! Shidokanatlanta,

I have trained all over the World but so far met few combat sportsmen who'd cope with a well trained SAS trooper who wants to bury you not put on a show. The fact they advocate the use of open-hand strikes probably means something ....

Gary

Osu! Gary,

I think the suprise factor counts a lot as well. If you see someone bunching their fist, you know somethings coming, an open hand is rarely viewed as a threat, in fact quite the opposite .

[kyofighter]

Kyokushin only is not enough to be able to punch and defend the head . In theory yes, but not in reality. Now some of you might say that we do head punches in the dojo and stuff like that, the truth is that it is not enough.
I did ten years of pretty high level kyokushin competition and when I started kickboxing I was in deep trouble. Just look at all the kyokushin fighters who entered K1, they all had to adjust to head defense and punches, but is is very visible that they are not comfortable. You need to remember that those guys are professional , trained by awesome coaches.
Now after I trained in kickboxing also for over six years I can say that they go well hand in hand - it is a different story - there are many things that need to be changed in kickboxing fighting - timing, distance control, head movement, combinations , are all a bit different then in kyokushin only. Of course you can use your experience from kyokushin , but you need to complete it with some serious kickboxing or boxing coaching.
That is what I think about this.
About open hand strikes to the face - without gloves the risk of eye injuries is to high. Even if you are supose to strike only from the side it is dangerous.

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

GFEChamberlin,


The SAS guy burying the sportsman or the other way around depends on the individuals. i'm sure that a sportsman like morris would do just fine against most. and i'm sure that he'd use the same techniques to drop people in the street just like he does in sport (probably easier). for hand to hand combat, i'm gonna lean towards the sportsman (like morris) cause i've seen him fight live and witnessed his power (i've fought on some of the same shows). having been hit by guys who know how to throw a punch, i don't have faith in slap boxing.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Shidokanatlanta,

Your choice my friend. Your choice. I know who I'd like backing me up, but then the terms 'SAS' and 'superbly trained killing machine' mean more than 'sportsman' over here.

Let's agree to differ.

Gary

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by ronro

Osu! Dent. I think you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about changing kyokushin, just bringing back something which was done more in the past. The reason I think open hands might be a good idea over closed fists is that their inclusion would allow the skills trained in knockdown to be used, unmodified, in a real fight. If you have done much head punching sparring with gloves you will know that the range, timing, pace and applicable techniques are much different to those used in knockdown. I don't feel this is such an issue when a focus is kept on body punching with open hands to the head. My experience of kyokushin has been mostly knockdown sparring (which I really enjoy).

I have a boxing background and switched to kyokushin later as I got older. I wouldn't punch like a boxer to the head without gloves having made that mistake before. I agree that conditioning the hands can make a difference, but it is still a roll of the dice every time you collide a fist with a hard object like a head. Fist bones are very small and fragile. This problem goes away with empty hands.

My apologies if I misunderstood you.

I have done a fair bit with gloves, also starting out in boxing.

The biggest danger with open hands to the face is fingers in the eyes. (Nasty cut on the bulb.) Cuts to the soft tissue are also fairly serious. (I've had both eyelids stitched.)

I've worked with the open hand in sparring, and see it's uses, but wouldn't sanction it for competition fighting. It's too easy for something to go wrong.

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by alkimachos

if u want to learn how to swim get in the water and learn...if u want to learn how to protect your head against punches and hit someones head have a sparring with rules including punches to head or have a training with hits to the head!!!sparring-kumite-mma fights nowdays just try to approach the real fights but they can't approach a real fight 100%. martial artists want to learn how to swim(fight) but they are training in a pools(dojos,tournaments) with lifeguards(trainers,referees) and they are preparing them selves so one day they swim in the real sea without lifeguards and maybe with tempest(real fight with no rules),without ignoring the mental part...my conclusion is that open handed strikes have a difference with punches,mayde the head reflexes will improve but u'll learn how to protect against open handed strikes and not to punches!! your fighting ability depends to u and not to the system-style!!

Then should we all just abandon the Dojo, and pick fights in the street? Or are we supposed to be Budoka?

There is more to Karate than fighting. Much more. I hope you find what you are looking for.

Osu!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Dent,

I don't think anyone's suggesting giving up the dojo. I'm with you that there is much more on offer there than simply learning to maim people.

I am a bit taken aback by how feverishly people defend their own way of doing things. Kyokushin (Enshin Shidokan Seido Ashihara etc) all have massive positive points, but all systems have some drawbacks.

I lost my blinkers years ago (I think they got knocked off in either a pub or a boxing gym) so I can see Ronro's point here. It appeals to common sense, which means plugging the gaps in whichever system you practise if you want to rely on your dojo or tournament skills for self-protection.

Anything less is wishful thinking - a 'sportsman' may get away with it for real if they're either very lucky or very talented, but the rest of us need to learn to reliably cover the head - the first target in the street.

Gary

[hasbeen]

OSU GARY!!

i am interested in what type of slaps you mean, i have only ever been taught the cupped hand over the ear.....i am trying to invisage what other slaps you mean and what technique is used.......i am after being taught sensei !!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Hasbeen

This guy is awesome:

http://www.johnskillenmaf.com/movies...powerslap2.mpg

This bloke is f in awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTwg_YXYy0

I suppose it's a matter of experience. I love karate training for all sorts of reasons, but where pre-emptive striking is concerned, when I need it to work first time every time, I use these. Obviously they need to be drilled until they flow naturally!

Gary

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

YouTube - MMA Alvaro vs. Stone Hands Cage Fight

look at the rio heroes fights, which are fought with original vale tudo rules (bare knuckle punching, kicks, elbows to the back of the head, knees, stomps, etc.). these demonstrate effective techniques with trained fighters.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Shidokanatlanta,

I'm lost! Very tough fighting of course, but far removed from the original discussion about bringing back open hands to the head (in Kyokushin)

I doubt it will ever happen, as the rules do what was intended, i.e. challenge the participants without many of the cuts etc seen in other systems (as above)

Maybe I've missed something here, so please explain further.

Thanks!

Gary

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vkdI...eature=related

this along with the previous clip is to support my previous statements for closed fist striking as more effective than open hand slaps. i have always held the belief that karate should incorporate head strikes (both open and closed hand). i would like to see live footage of the open hand techniques doing the type of damage shown here.


osu

[GJEChamberlain]

You know what?

I'm going to leave you to this. I suggested a while back we agree to differ.

The idea is not to do damage (as in cuts), the idea is to get the 'brain shake' required to knock someone down and get away. A massive strike to the jaw line with the open hand can do that. (As can a fist but typically more accuracy and training is required. Punching also carries more risk of breaking bones in the hand and / or infections from cuts etc etc)

I'm not interested in cutting people up, or watching sicko video's of it for that matter.

I wish you well.

Gary

[Dent]

Osu! Gary,

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu! Dent,

I don't think anyone's suggesting giving up the dojo. I'm with you that there is much more on offer there than simply learning to maim people.

I am a bit taken aback by how feverishly people defend their own way of doing things. Kyokushin (Enshin Shidokan Seido Ashihara etc) all have massive positive points, but all systems have some drawbacks.

I lost my blinkers years ago (I think they got knocked off in either a pub or a boxing gym) so I can see Ronro's point here. It appeals to common sense, which means plugging the gaps in whichever system you practise if you want to rely on your dojo or tournament skills for self-protection.

Anything less is wishful thinking - a 'sportsman' may get away with it for real if they're either very lucky or very talented, but the rest of us need to learn to reliably cover the head - the first target in the street.

Gary

The suggestion that training with referees and rules was pointless because real fights don't happen that way was more than a little irritating. I see this type of suggestion from time to time, yet those who make that type of suggestion seem to be busy every time that type of training is offered.

I agree with the use of as many options as possible in training, but object to a free-for-all approach to competition. Testing yourself within the rules is part of the strength of any competitive endeavor.

I have participated in (amateur) Boxing, Judo, Karate, Submission grappling and Kickboxing matches, and value them all. They are ALL just games though. Sometimes there are injuries, but still games. There would have to be something wrong with me if I went to a comp with the sole purpose of permanently disabling someone.

Dojo training is one thing, competition fighting is another, and real fighting is different again. Each needs to be recognized for what it is, and IMO trying to stew them all together will result in a poor dish.

Osu!

[ronro]

Shidokanatlanta, sure some people do get away with hitting bare fisted to the head. Some people have very large hands or particularly strong bone structure- these people are lucky and can probably get away with more than average. But hand break statistics for original style vale tudo like you showed are very high. Lots of people also resort to slapping or cuffing with the forearm, or elbows, particularly against a downed opponent. Grappling finishes play a much larger part than conventional mma rules. I just wouldn't be prepared to risk breaking a hand in a real situation- I have already broken my right hand more than once. If you break a hand you can't fight very well.

I agree that palm strikes are more difficult to use and probably pack less of a knockout blow, but they are much safer for the hands. Difficulties I have with palms are stringing them together and not telegraphing them. I try to set them up with body punches mostly. A good palm is perfectly good for knocking people out though. I have reposted the clip of Bas Rutten using palms in pancrasse in case you missed it. This is a good live demo of their potential:

YouTube - UFC Pride Best of Bas Rutten

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

if you know how to punch properly your hands will be fine. palms and slaps just won't do it for me. pancrase no longer uses palm only strikes. fingerless gloves are now used because the punch causes more damage. and having fought with fingerless gloves, i can tell you that their main purpose is to reduce cutting. they really don't reduce the impact and provide all that much protection to your hand. you can still injure your hand. punching (or any hand technique) of any kind is a skill. i think the closed fist is most effective in reality. i think karateka should focus on learning to punch to the head with a fist more so than with an open hand. just my opinion.

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by jcc

Osu! ronro,

I wonder if you´re talking about something like this:

YouTube - Taikiken vs Kyokushin 1

If so, I don´t think it would be a bad idea in dojo training, but not too sure about tournaments. Bare-handed strikes/fists to the face will simply not be allowed in too many countries to make tournaments a possibility.

Osu!

I was hoping someone would post this.

[Shiroryuu]

I kind of think that it would be a good idea to put on some gloves and headgear and spar with punches to the face, but I keep reading that the idea of Kyokushin is to fight without gloves or protection for realism since you won't have gloves in the streets. Gloves were meant to protect hands, not heads since the worst part of getting punched to the face are not cuts and bruises, but the blunt head trauma (which I think is the worst kind of injury in martial arts as it can be fatal). Punching without gloves would mean that a person would be more careful with throwing their punches.