Bring back open hands to head?

[EnterTheirMinds]

I don't do kyokushin, I do Goju-Ryu karate and others. I've seen done minimal kyokushin practice, and it would change the game if head strikes were allowed. An open-hand hit can still be pretty powerful and produce a decent amount of damage. Introducing head hits would change it quite a bit, so much so that it would change strategies of combat, so it'd be like learning a new marital art. In Goju-Ryu, we do use hits to the head, and with my extremely minimal training in kyokushin, it'd be hard for me to say exactly how it'd be like without using head strikes.

However, from my view, I'd say no. Kyokushin is unique and allowing head strikes would defeat some of this uniqueness. If you want to use head strikes, then expect a lot of new training as the hits can come far faster and at numerous angles. I like kyokushin for a few reasons, one of them is its uniqueness.

Unless you're planning to go into competitions where head strikes are allowed, then by all means, start training but otherwise, I'd say no. These are my opinions from an outsider, so if you disagree, that's perfectly fine.

[Shiroryuu]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



I think that in monitored training, this can be a good exercise, but I still dislike the idea of Kyokushin tournaments going in this direction. I believe there are already alternative avenues for this style of competition.

Osu!

You're right. If we simply added gloves and head punches to Kyokushin, it would change the game a lot and it wouldn't really be Kyokushin anymore.

[Paedde]

As more as I think about this subject and as more I get into the MMA scene, my mind is changing. The only thing that could be changed is the Gi grabbing, but beside that Kyokushin is the true way for kicking and bodypunches. There is also boxing for headpunches, BJJ for groundwork and wrestling/judo for takedowns.

In my opinion it's perfect that way, you see alot MMA and kickboxing guys crosstraing in boxing because there hands are not good enough, so why not ignore them and perfect what we are good at?

Osu

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

i agree with dent. knock down should remain as is. if you want to compete with head strikes, go to a sport that does so.

[jcc]

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

i agree with dent. knock down should remain as is. if you want to compete with head strikes, go to a sport that does so.

Osu!

I think that we need to differentiate between knockdown, which as realistic and tough as it may be, is geared for a tournament system, with it´s rules and weaknesses and what should be taught in the dojo as part of a budo karate. If not, then where are we really going?

The system I´ve seen at a couple of the dojo here is pretty good. Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday mornings are mainly kihon & kata training, with a bit of kumite. Tuesday and Thursday, pure knockdown training. This seems to me to be a good way of splitting the classes for those that want to concentrate on tournament training.

[theblueeyedninja]

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

if you know how to punch properly your hands will be fine.

boxers have their hands heavily taped by people whose job is taping/protecting hands and they still break them. The skull is harder than the small bones that make up the hand. Palm strikes, not slaps, can rock someone as pose low risk to the user...

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

i don't punch skulls even with a glove. you punch people in the face or side of the head (ear area). i've cut a knuckle on a took once. as a shidokan fighter we weren't allowed to tape the knuckles (2-3 rounds of knockdown, 2-3 rounds boxing gloves, 2-3 rounds of fingerless mma gloves). i am used to fist fights, and i stand by the fist over the open hand in real fights. while writing this i asked jaral bowman, (a boxer, mma, shidokan, and thai fighter) who has had a fair share of street fights too, if a palm or open hand technique would bother him. now he's had punches, elbows, knees, kicks, come at his head. he said no, he's never seen someone get knocked out with a slap, but he has with those just mentioned. growing we would get outside and slap box (if we didn't have any gloves) hard for fun. but if we fought, is was a fist fight.

[seienchin]

Here is me breaking a few boards with a "slap" I have a strong suspicion it would break a jaw too, if I wanted it to.

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=299&si=tameshiwari&perpage=12

Shotei is not a slap, but I can make a shotei look like a slap if I want to trick some knucklehead into proving that he can take a slap from a woman.

I have actually used shotei to break down a door once, when I arrived at a house and discovered that a person was on the floor inside.

However, having defended the shotei, I don't want to see tournaments incorporate these, because they are nasty and destructive. Go play with someone else if you don't like kyokushin knockdown rules, or start your own flavour tournament. I salute shidokan and other styles who have done this.

[Dent]

Osu!

Shotei...

It's just not a slap, although it is an open hand technique. I've only used it once, and that was while working the door. The result was one of the ugliest hits I've given. It was as classic a situation as can be with a guy charging forward, and the technique was spot on, thrusting up under the jaw.

As his head snapped back, and his lights went out, he looked like he'd been deboned, and he crashed heavily into a car. And he stayed out. For a long time. Until well after the paramedics can come and taken him away. Possibly the longest KO I've been a witness to, and certainly the longest I've ever put someone out for.

Since then I haven't used it. It's going to have to be a very dangerous situation before I'll risk what seems to be a different style of heavy artillery.

Maybe it was sheer luck, and maybe that guy had some other issue that I don't know about, but Shotei isn't something I'd trot out for free. There is a serious potential cost attached.

Osu!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

It's no coincidence that the chin jab (aka shotei) was fundamental to the 'gutter fighting' taught to Commando's etc in WW2 by WE Fairbairn and others.

It's not pretty but devastatingly effective, truly 'low tech - high effect', and taught to be used aggressively in deadly situations where winning is the only option. With all due respect to combat athletes, that is a different league mentally and physically - I'm surprised that's not obvious.

Gary

[im.aho]

Originally Posted by seienchin

Here is me breaking a few boards with a "slap" I have a strong suspicion it would break a jaw too, if I wanted it to.

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=299&si=tameshiwari&perpage=12

Shotei is not a slap, but I can make a shotei look like a slap if I want to trick some knucklehead into proving that he can take a slap from a woman.

I have actually used shotei to break down a door once, when I arrived at a house and discovered that a person was on the floor inside.

However, having defended the shotei, I don't want to see tournaments incorporate these, because they are nasty and destructive. Go play with someone else if you don't like kyokushin knockdown rules, or start your own flavour tournament. I salute shidokan and other styles who have done this.

With all due respect, based on your argument and picture, we shall ban jodan mawashi geri as well in ALL tournaments then...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGzFmlcdh6Y
at the 3:05 mark

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

Why?

Jodan mawashi geri travels about eight feet (i.e. about 5' upwards and around 3' forwards) It's undoubted power is therefore counterbalanced by the time taken. A shotei to the jaw can create awesome force from about 9" away. As most fighters hang their head forwards like a panting dog after about 60 seconds .....

Well, you work out why this technique is banned.

Gary

[im.aho]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

A shotei to the jaw can create awesome force from about 9" away. As most fighters hang their head forwards like a panting dog after about 60 seconds .....
Gary

Which is exactly why the technique should be re-introduced! So that most fighters won't "hang their head forwards like a panting dog after about 60 seconds".

It's absolutely amazing that people would actually promote bad techniques and bad habits, just because they don't want to face up to the reality. In fights, there are going to be shots to the face, so accept that fact and learn to defend against them, not hide your head in the sand and pretend that it doesn't exist. Or in better terms, hide your head/face in tournament rules, and pretend that no fight in real life or anywhere will not attack to the face.

Face up to the reality!!!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

I'm sure you'll be the first to sign up when eye-gouging, groin kicks and headbutts are re-introduced! Why stop there? Why not allow blades, as that's often 'reality' around here ....

Or maybe you'll just buy a spectator ticket.

Combat sport is just that: Combat SPORT. Sport requires rules to ensure that participants can be challenged but not maimed. When Mas Oyama devised his knockdown rule system, he took out the techniques that were unacceptably dangerous for good reason.

If you want to try 'reality' rather than sport, it has already been suggested that you play elsewhere. What is even more disturbing is that you are confusing the two.

Gary

[vapor]

breath...we are not going to argue...debate the topic, not each other!

vapor

[Ronin84]

I dont post on here much but I saw this thread and decided to throw in my 2 cents.

One thing I think that is being missed here is the fact that , at least in the states, if you want to be "full contact" there tends to be some serious regulation. It would probably make holding events much more dificult. A pretty fair amount of state athletic commissions might have a problem with full on palm strikes to the face. I would amagin current knockdown rules already push the limit.

My opinion on the open hand strikes... A striaght on palm strike has its advantages and uses but anything looping is garbage.

Gary, SAS, SF, SEALS, etc are all formidable guys and can handle themselves in confrontation but a SPORT fighter is trained and condtioned to fight unarmed against another athlete. Special Operators a bad as they might be train to fight enemy combatants with small unit tactics, weapons, strategy, and if need be hand to hand tactics. They do not have the time to train for a one on one fight like a SPORT fighter. Look what a sport fighter can do with all those rules and think what they can do without them. You can't truely practic poking each other in th eyes and ripping out throats and biting each other so I'd bet the SPORT guys can hang on the street. Just my take as member of the US military. Now throw in a knife, some sticks, a pistol and we have a whole new animal.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Vapor,

Relax - I'm not getting personal, just trying to explain the difference between sport and reality for the terminally confused.

Why I'm bothering is a better question. I know the difference through long experience in both sides. Maybe I'm trying to save any 'Tournament only' fighters getting hurt by thinking he / she can instantly change their range / techniques / mindset in an explosion of violence they just didn't see coming.

Ronin84,

Same answer really. One reason soldiers originally made terrible peacekeepers is that young men trained to seek out and kill an enemy often just didn't have the mindset to show compassionate judgements. Thankfully those training needs are now being addressed.

That works the same in reverse. People trained to hold back (and I don't care what SPORT you engage in, you are subconciously trained to respect the opponent and the rules) may find an instantaneous attack requiring deadly force difficult to handle or initiate. Specific training is required if this vacuum is to be filled.

The SAS etc types I refered to in earlier posts do not have the same mental restrictions. They are not murderers, but they are killers, so enemies become targets to be dropped, not fellow athletes. Although maybe less talented in the sense of demonstrable artistic skills, this ruthless mindset and aggression coupled with deadly techniques makes them formidable indeed. Having met a fair few I would definately want them on my side in any confrontation!

The middle line is of course to pursue your SPORT for all the fitness and skill benefits, and then ADD in drills to access this inner beast and aggression and train to be able to apply, not just be able to demonstrate, these 'extra' skills. Some fighters no doubt do this, but reading some of the posts here I am convinced that many impressionable young people are almost brainwashed into believing 'normal' training is enough. 'Tough' does not always mean 'effective' and 'skilful' does not always mean 'efficient'. Some fighters are maybe ex gang members. ex military etc and have this ability to get deadly serious, but I'd venture most 'normal' students do not. No problem if they just want sport, big problem if they also want to defend themselves effectively.

If that is the technical reality check im.aho refers to I am in full agreement. I STILL don't think these skills have any place in combat sport though!

Gary

[Dent]

Osu!

In my opinion there is one rule that must be adhered to in any tournament, and that is the safety of the participants. From there, we can see what the bounds of the main rule are.

I have fought with gloves and without. With strikes to the head, and without. Under the current well-known international knockdown systems of Kyokushin, Ashihara and Enshin, the safety of the fighters in a hard environment is still paramount, and in my opinion, this is as it should be.

When we open the door to more and more dangerous technique in competition, are we really doing it for the fighters, or is it to appease the spectators?

I agree that Dojo training should allow these techniques managed in such a way as to maintain safety and personal responsibility, but I currently see no place for them in Budo Karate tournaments.

Osu!

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

there is no need to add hand strikes to knock down competition. it is unique and tough combat sport as is. if competitors want to punch to the head, they should enter competitions that have that (shidokan, kudo, boxing, thai boxing).