Bring back open hands to head?

[ronro]

If there is one big weakness of kyokushin it is in dealing with face punches. Even the best knockdown champions have trouble handling these and a little bit of training gloved up doesn't compensate for the habits of a lifetime.

Various efforts have been made to correct this deficiency- the helmets of daido juku, the gloved training of ichigeki, the triathlon approach of shidokan, etc. All of these, especially training with gloves, change the character of kyokushin karate. Gloved up punches are not delivered in the same way as bare handed ones and training with gloves introduces false confidence and likely broken hands in a real fight.

I can't understand why one obvious proven method hasn't made a resurgance: open hand shots to the head in knockdown. With this method you develop good head defence reflexes while maintaining the bare handed ethos of kyokushin. Open handed head shots do not change the character of knockdown rules sparring which kyokushin is rightly famous for, and they are also immediately transferrable to real fighting with no modification or worrying about hand safety. Open handed slaps are no more dangerous than kicks to the head which are already allowed in knockdown sparring.

Opinions?

[effectz]

Its interesting that you bring this up, in the last tournament I fought in, my opponent was using open hands to the head against me and the refs didnt say anything. It was a WOK tournament, I train kyokushin.

Luckily enough I wasnt bothered b/c of the boxing i used to do in my prior years, but it definately would help awareness to attacks to the head as well as helping fighters with head movement.

[JAzze]

I'd be very interested to hear what the experienced among us have to say about this. My sensei has added face contact training to our advanced classes using headgear with face shields and light gloves (no hand wrapping). We also practice without headgear, but with very light contact. In this case we use open hands on the hooks and with our fists like we were "holding eggs" for straight techniques and uppercuts.

I have to say, I really fall apart when face contact is brought into the sparring mix. It's like my opponent suddenly grew two extra limbs. We've all been improving slowly since Sensei added this training, but I'd last about 2 seconds against a trained boxer. And that counts the time walking from my corner to the center of the ring

[Dent]

Osu! Ronro,

I take it from your post that you believe that your idea is a solution to the problems you see with an entire system.

Could you please give us your own background so we can determine if your supposition is based on practical experience, or on the posts of others?

The reason I ask, aside from a level of natural curiosity, is that there are many people who assume that all Kyokushin training is about punching to the body, yet their own time in a Kyokushin Dojo is minimal, and so we see the same question being asked again and again.

My own training time has seen me in Dojo in a number of countries, and without exception, punching to the face is taught and dealt with. Now, competition rules are one tiny part of Kyokushin that seem to draw the most interest. For outsiders...

For those of us who enjoy our training in the format of Sosai, our individual Kancho, Shihan, Sensei and Sempai, we encourage you to form your own system. We look forward to the worldwide Karate revolution that will change all our minds.

Much as I suspect your telling boxers to include kicks in their boxing training is going to bring accolades from far and wide...

Osu!

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

i punch the same with or without a glove. i condition my knuckles everyday and i train with and without gloves.

[ronro]

Osu! Dent. I think you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about changing kyokushin, just bringing back something which was done more in the past. The reason I think open hands might be a good idea over closed fists is that their inclusion would allow the skills trained in knockdown to be used, unmodified, in a real fight. If you have done much head punching sparring with gloves you will know that the range, timing, pace and applicable techniques are much different to those used in knockdown. I don't feel this is such an issue when a focus is kept on body punching with open hands to the head. My experience of kyokushin has been mostly knockdown sparring (which I really enjoy).

This is only my view, I am not dictating to anyone. I love kyokushin and its offshoots and would love to see kyo fighters having better head protection reflexes since real fights invariably involve getting hit in the face. I just think that using gloves and/or helmets changes the game too much. Personally I don't feel closed fists are a good idea in bare handed fighting at all. Look at the number of hand breaks in events like real vale tudo in Brazil. They are not reliable, in my opinion.

I have a boxing background and switched to kyokushin later as I got older. I wouldn't punch like a boxer to the head without gloves having made that mistake before. I agree that conditioning the hands can make a difference, but it is still a roll of the dice every time you collide a fist with a hard object like a head. Fist bones are very small and fragile. This problem goes away with empty hands.

[seienchin]

This thread, imho, shows why just introducing head strikes changes nothing in terms of guaranteeing skill of the participants.

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums...aekwon-do.html

this style has head strikes allowed, but I don't really think any of us believe that the fighters here have a high degree of skill in the area.

and I don't understand why you believe it is valid to assume that open handed strikes would be used differently to punches. I can shoot off shoteis just as rapid-fire as I can punches, and shutos would add a dimension of circular attack. for me, technically, there is absolutely no difference between seiken delivery and shotei- shotei is even my preferred tameshiwari technique. A few weeks of bag practice delivering shotei, and validity for arguing that this is somehow different to face punches with closed fist would probably be lost.


Eventually, the bouts would be head-focussed, it would change the distance and timing, and you are welcome to it. There are already other systems that allow variants. And honestly, NO legal combat sport is "realistic".

I have done tournaments with face punches, and I was pretty bad at it, but then I got better. But I didn't have to change Kyokushin's rules to get that experience. I just went and played in someone else's sandpit.

[ronro]

ugh, I didn't like that taekwondo at all. I suppose though that kicking techniques are what score for them...ITF is supposed to be semi contact is it not? A concentration on kicking with semi contact face punching might be expected to produce sub par hand skills like those.

My reason for advocating open hand strikes over boxing style strikes to the face is that open hands are slower, more telegraphed and shorter range in general. They are harder to string together and really need to be set up with good body combinations for maximum effect. It is more difficult just to wade in with open hands than with face punches.

I also prefer them because they don't have the hand break risk. I would like to see kyokushin with more head defense skills because I am worried about the realism and value of it for real fights. This was an issue in the old days, maybe not so much now. I think open hands could address this issue to some extent while not changing the character of kyokushin competition too much.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

I doubt head shots will ever be included in Tournaments, so although interesting it's pretty much a non-starter. Full contact open-hand strikes are devastatingly effective if delivered on target and with intent. (See link - unsuitable for minors) and if introduced would doubtless change the whole system of fighting. In the dojo it's valuable to remind someone their head is exposed by tapping out to the forehead with shotei if they are either too close or have dropped their hands, but this should be a teaching point and always very controlled.

It's no coincidence military unarmed combat favours open-handed strikes over punches.

(Any soldier that can't fire a weapon after breaking their fist becomes a waste of good rations)

Gary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTwg_YXYy0

(Check the open hand strikes. Would you really want these in combat sport?)

[hasbeen]

i agree with seienchin and gary....however!! open handed strikes to the head????

now it has been accepted by the seniors on the forum that any civilised country would outlaw kyokushin if bare fist face punches were allowed, so this being the case what would happen if open handed strikes were allowed?

p.s what do members think about training in steel toe capped boots..we should learn to protect ourselves against these sort of attacks............sorry guys but where do you draw the line....kyokushin has already been tampered with enough by sosais decision to ban the,"grab and knee"

leave well alone there are numerous other training opportunities which encompass head shots..just my opinion.

[alkimachos]

if u want to learn how to swim get in the water and learn...if u want to learn how to protect your head against punches and hit someones head have a sparring with rules including punches to head or have a training with hits to the head!!!sparring-kumite-mma fights nowdays just try to approach the real fights but they can't approach a real fight 100%. martial artists want to learn how to swim(fight) but they are training in a pools(dojos,tournaments) with lifeguards(trainers,referees) and they are preparing them selves so one day they swim in the real sea without lifeguards and maybe with tempest(real fight with no rules),without ignoring the mental part...my conclusion is that open handed strikes have a difference with punches,mayde the head reflexes will improve but u'll learn how to protect against open handed strikes and not to punches!! your fighting ability depends to u and not to the system-style!!

"WITH RESPECT TO TRADITION AND OPEN MINDED VIEW"

OSU!!!

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by alkimachos

if u want to learn how to swim get in the water and learn...if u want to learn how to protect your head against punches and hit someones head have a sparring with rules including punches to head or have a training with hits to the head!!!sparring-kumite-mma fights nowdays just try to approach the real fights but they can't approach a real fight 100%. martial artists want to learn how to swim(fight) but they are training in a pools(dojos,tournaments) with lifeguards(trainers,referees) and they are preparing them selves so one day they swim in the real sea without lifeguards and maybe with tempest(real fight with no rules),without ignoring the mental part...my conclusion is that open handed strikes have a difference with punches,mayde the head reflexes will improve but u'll learn how to protect against open handed strikes and not to punches!! your fighting ability depends to u and not to the system-style!!

"WITH RESPECT TO TRADITION AND OPEN MINDED VIEW"

OSU!!!

OSU! but with the deepest respect to you,kyokushin would be banned.

sorry alkamachos i read your post quickly and had a knee jerk reaction...my first first sentence does not really relate to what you are saying...as you can guess i have got a thing about bare hand contact to the head.

[ronro]

That clip looked pretty brutal Gary, not quite what I was imagining. I agree that open hands of that type are probably going to change the game a lot. Maybe the tapping head lightly thing you mentioned is a better option for training.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Ronro,

It was meant to be pretty shocking. I agree with what you say though, that complacency often creeps into Tournament fighters where head cover is only concerned with kicking.

We try to keep things practical, so the odd reminder here and there helps. I don't feel the need to glove up though, as that changes the dynamics of grabbing and throwing too much. (Both integral to Enshin)

Without trying to be controversial here, I feel sad to see youngsters being brainwashed into believing any system is capable of being safe and devastatingly effective in the same format.

Tournaments test many things, but if people want to be safer in real combat, awareness of head strikes must be trained alongside. Most dojo do this, but some seem to believe sport and SD are the same.

Gary

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

if your going to train head punches, go ahead and put on boxing gloves and spar. mix in boxing and kickboxing. slapping with open hands isn't going to do it and never is throwing light punches at your partner. that would be equivalent to light contact knockdown sparring.

the research of karateka punching to the head has been done. that's why we have shidokan triathlon rules. if you have access to shidokan open videos from the early 90's (as the tournament started out as just knockdown rules) to present (knockdown, thai boxing, mma), we can see the impact of hand techniques to the face. based on what i've studied and experienced, the boxing style of punching added to the karateka's training solved this problem. initially those, who had a strong muay thai or kickboxing background, dominated the karate fighters until the made this adjustment.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Shidokanatlanta

"slapping with open hands isn't going to do it"

Depends who's doing the slapping. Check the video clip please then re-assess. In the meantime if you see a bad-tempered little ex-SAS bloke who wants to slap you I respectfully suggest you keep your distance!

Gary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTwg_YXYy0

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

YouTube - Jerry Morris Shidokan Knockouts Part1

i found this jerry morris highlight video on youtube. jerry was the dominate lightweight 1994-1999, where he went undefeated. he's shidokan stylist and thai boxing champion and has very heavy hands. these clips are good examples karateka having to adapt to head punching.

[ronro]

I like the Jerry Morris clips, he has certainly adapted his karate well to those rules. The thing I don't like about boxing style head punching though is just that you are at high risk of breaking your hand if you fight without gloves. Apart from that I love the speed and power of it.

Here is a clip of Bas Rutten in pancrasse style fights (body punches, open hands to head). I think he does a pretty good job of putting them together in an effective way without the risk of broken hands.

YouTube - UFC Pride Best of Bas Rutten

[jcc]

Osu! ronro,

I wonder if you´re talking about something like this:

YouTube - Taikiken vs Kyokushin 1

If so, I don´t think it would be a bad idea in dojo training, but not too sure about tournaments. Bare-handed strikes/fists to the face will simply not be allowed in too many countries to make tournaments a possibility.

Osu!

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

you risk injuring your hands when you punch in knockdown. you risk injuring your legs or feet when you kick. so, in a real fight, i suggest you hit with a fist. most of you who have fought knockdown have either punched to the face or have been punched to the face (by accident or on purpose). it happens. from sliding off a block or people moving into them (i.e. ducking). we've all punched elbows and hurt our hands too. if worried about getting hurt (because when you fight, that is the risk and injuries will happen if your opponent is a good fighter), don't fight, run. i don't think palming/slapping people is more effective than the knuckles to head, so i'm gonna stay with the fists.