Kyokushin Karate is Korean Karate!!! What do you think?

[ibuki]

Originally Posted by jmkdavid

Post deleted.
Martin H. Moderator here:
No trashing. Especialy not as offtopic posts in a thread about something,else entirely
If you have critizism about someone, do it in a separate thread, and phrase it politely.

We do NOT want this forum to become the political bickering cesspool that the previous major kyokushin forum became before it forced them to close.

100% per cent agree :!:

[jmkdavid]

Post deleted.
Martin H. Moderator here:
No trashing. Especialy not as offtopic posts in a thread about something,else entirely
If you have critizism about someone, do it in a separate thread, and phrase it politely.

We do NOT want this forum to become the political bickering cesspool that the previous major kyokushin forum became before it forced them to close.

I appologize, I was out of line. It won´t happen again.
Osu!

[Martin H]

no problem. it was not that severe. I am just stomping extra hard since it was the first time it happened and I need to make the lines clear from the get go. :-)

[Shura]

Sosai was Korean. No disputing that, and he was very proud of his heritage. But in his heart and way of living, he was more Japanese than some of his contemporaries. Kyokushin was his life's work, and our lineage is from Shotokan, Goju-ryu, Boxing, Muay Thai, Taikiken, Judo, Aikijutsu, etc. Most of these are Okinawan/Japanese arts, which Sosai himself trained in. He may have disagreed with the direction that some of the styles were heading, but he never forgot where Kyokushin's roots came from.

[RASor]

Osu,

Just an academic discussion:

Consider history during the Japanese Empire. Korea was part of the Japanese Empire and this was during the time of our Sosai Masutatsu Oyama. Korea being part of Japan, Korean lineage was integrated with the Japanese lineage for citizenship (note that Japanese lineage determines citizenship up to now). This being the case Sosai Masutatsu being a Korean by blood but Japanese by circumstance (i.e., annexation of Korea under Japanese Empire) benefited Sosai Mas Oyama his Japanese Citizenship.

Sosai Oyama, lived and loved his Japanese Heritage. Served under the Japanese army, loved and married a Japanese woman, studied and learned Martial Arts from Japanese Masters, then later on built a strong Japanese Martial Arts Style of his own. Rooted his family in Japan. Died and was buried in Japan.

Sosai Oyama was a Japanese born in Korea of Korean parents. This mix of Japanese-Korean or Korean-Japanese is the best thing that could have ever happened for Kyokushin Karate. This is why we are the strongest Karate. Ours is born from the best of both Worlds, the best of Two Proud Nations (i.e., Korea & Japan).

Osu!

[ichigeki31]

osu,thats a really nice reply .

[Shaolin Bushido]

General Choi actually did make a well publicized visit to Mas Oyama attempting to get him to ally himself with the national art of Tae Kwon Do and Mas Oyama declined his offer. General Choi used his political clout to eliminate all of his adversarys and even to discredit his own teachers and seniors in the evolution of Korean Karate. No one Karateka was responsible for the creation of Tae Kwon Do but there were many more talented Karateka who preceded him in establishing it in Korea. He did reorganize and emphasize nationalism afterwards but the benefit of that is arguable.

I'm sure that Mas Oyama knew this when he made his decision to remain on his own, not that being allied with Choi Hong Hi would have had any benefit to his own martial legacy. If anything it would have detracted from it.

[spanky11]

Originally Posted by RASor

Osu,

Sosai Oyama, lived and loved his Japanese Heritage. Served under the Japanese army, loved and married a Japanese woman, studied and learned Martial Arts from Japanese Masters, then later on built a strong Japanese Martial Arts Style of his own. Rooted his family in Japan. Died and was buried in Japan.

Osu!

Actually, I think the late Chiyako Oyama was also a Korean.

I could be wrong

[Groucho]

I think the author of the article, while well intentioned, is severely misguided...and because we're polite here, I won't say he has his head up his ***, but IMHO, he suffers from a pronounced anal/cranial inversion...

But I have a problem with revisionist history...

These sort of rants pop up on pretty much any board where MA are discussed, and it seems a real shame. It's as if the practioners of whatever Korean art, but most often TKD (in my experience) need Kyokushin to be influenced by some Korean art to validate themselves somehow. Sad, really.

And also entirely disrespectful of the sempai who have contributed in whatever small ways to the development of Kyokushin before us...

Sosai was born in Korea...we get it...that Kyokushin is therefore a Korean art is a classic "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy (YES!!! I finally get to use Intro Philosophy...), meaning "after this, therefore because of this", and it just does not follow

[Shura]

Ms. Chiyako Oyama was Japanese.
And yeah, I heard about that stuff regarding General Choi and Sosai.
That website and Fighter in the Wind are insults to Sosai's memory.

[RASor]

Originally Posted by spanky11

Actually, I think the late Chiyako Oyama was also a Korean.

I could be wrong

Osu spanky11,

Let me further validate. I based my assumption of Mrs. Chiyako Oyama's Japanese Citizenship from some Shihans and Senseis.

I too may be wrong but based from the Korean Movie of Sosai Masutatsu Oyama's life Madam Chiyako Oyama was depicted as "Japanese Geisha" further validating what these Shihans and Senseis have said.

Thank you for calling my attention.

Osu.

[smoothsake]

Fact is, Koreans and Japanese will find just about anything to dispute. I'm not surprised one bit by this article.

I'm not an expert on Sosai Oyama's life, but I can comment about the thousands upon thousands of Koreans living in Japan (in Japanese, "Zainichi.") The mass majority of these Zainichi were brought over as laborers during WWII, and many of them are still in Japan today. These displaced Korean citizens, although tied to Korea through nationalistic pride, have made Japan their home for whatever reason. They make up the largest non-Japanese community in a country that is largely homogeneous.

Sosai Oyama made Japan his home and his contributions, based heavily on his experiences and intimate interactions, were created in Japan. Does that make Kyokushin Karate a Japanese art? Yes, in my book, but who cares... it is more important that the world have an opportunity to learn its philosophy, its technique, and its positive impact on mankind. Osu!

[smoothsake]

Originally Posted by RASor

Osu spanky11,

Let me further validate. I based my assumption of Mrs. Chiyako Oyama's Japanese Citizenship from some Shihans and Senseis.

I too may be wrong but based from the Korean Movie of Sosai Masutatsu Oyama's life Madam Chiyako Oyama was depicted as "Japanese Geisha" further validating what these Shihans and Senseis have said.

Thank you for calling my attention.

Osu.

According to this website which quotes a letter written by Kuristina, Oyama Chiyako-san is also of Korean descent but naturalized Japanese citizen. http://www.budokarate.com/MrsChiyakoOyama.htm

[RASor]

Osu smoothsake,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Reading such words of love for Madame Chiyako Oyama has brought tears to my eyes. Again I am reminded of how much she has suffered. Still she survived all these, indeed she has a strong spirit, a samurai spirit in her own way.

Sosai Masutatsu Oyama and Madam Chiyako Oyama should make us rise above nationalities and national boundaries in order to see the true meaning of the Martial Way. It is the spirit in us that will keep us together above all material things. We are after all regardless of race their children, brought up Kyokushinkai.

Osu!

[JungSooHan]

I am a Korean American that is proud of were i came from and as i read this article what comes to mind is the period after japanese occupation were koreans wanted there sense of nationalism back. So they started to create Taekwondo as a way to some how reminisce about some of korea's martial legacy. To me this is a attempt to raise koreas upstanding in the martial arts by trying nationalize Kyokushin. As a korean i believe we should try to revitalize what few buddhist martial arts we still have in a hope that we can bring back some of korea glory. Also as i korean and how you talk about korea being part of the japanese empire it hurts me inside on how you say this casually, almost as if ignoring the brutallity and oppression we faced during those 35 years of oppression which ultimately lead to my divided homeland. You see i when i think of those times i think of the countless rapes and murder of my people the burning of thousands of books killing and pillaging of my people and the devastation to the martial community of korea.
But Dont get me wrong i do not hate the japanese because to hate another is to hate oneself but i can never forget what happened. And i highly Respect Kyokushin as a beautiful art and i wish to study it.

[Shura]

Sosai never forgot that he was Korean, but he dedicated his life to developing his karate and stayed in Japan where he married and raised three daughters, laid the foundations of Japan (and arguably the Netherlands as well) as a top Kickboxing/Muay Thai nations due to Japanese Kickboxing deriving itself from Kyokushin principles as well as Muay Thai, developed one of the most formidable knockdown karate styles in the world by combining several Japanese/Okinawan arts into a comprehensive fighting discipline, and other countless achievements.
Yes, it's true that Japan's colonial policies toward Korea were brutal and harsh, but let's not get political here. It's bad enough with all the in-fighting between Kyokushin groups, we don't need a Japan or Korea bashing here. Masutatsu Oyama or Choi Baedel, it doesn't matter which name people should call him or what his nationality was. I'd rather remember Sosai's contribution to martial arts then nitpick about his ethnic identity.
This brings up another point. I realize that Korean martial arts have been questioned and scrutinized in the post-WWII period due to the fact that some would accuse Korea of conducting "revisionist" history. Take a look at how Judo is known as Yudo and the Korean explanation behind it. Or hapkido even. Yung Sul Choi had repeatedly acknowledged that his teachings are based upon Dairo Ryu Aikijutsu supposedly, but there are still holdouts that completely ignore what Choi has said.
And that website made a serious error in its assertions; karate is an Okinawan art that was brought over to Japan. What we know of as karate is derived from various Okinawan-te styles. Gichin Funakoshi as well as Motobu Choki, Chojun Miyagi, and many other Okinawans brought over Te to Japan. The Japanese adapted Te into their gendai budo, and it later traveled to Korea, the United States, etc.
As for Tae Kwon Do, General Choi as well as other significant contributors to TKD's development were also karateka. General Choi did Shotokan. And here's a news link regarding TKD's roots with karate: http://www.mooto.com/eng/webzine/new...sp?news_no=776
Does that mean that we can dismiss TKD as a cheap knock-off of Okinawan/Japanese karate? No, since that would be ridiculous to generalize a popular and respected martial art that went in its own direction. TKD's emphasis on kicking and long-range striking is its unique characteristic to distinguish itself from other arts. However, it isn't fair that there are individuals and organizations that make outrageous claims that try to limit or ignore the roots of Japanese koryu and gendai budo in some of Korea's contemporary martial arts.

[RASor]

Osu,

Originally Posted by Shura

Does that mean that we can dismiss TKD as a cheap knock-off of Okinawan/Japanese karate?... TKD's emphasis on kicking and long-range striking is its unique characteristic to distinguish itself from other arts. However, it isn't fair that there are individuals and organizations that make outrageous claims that try to limit or ignore the roots of Japanese koryu and gendai budo in some of Korea's contemporary martial arts.

There are no superior "Martial Arts" as these all take root in Culture. These are Arts born from a people their way of life and oftentimes their survival. We should appreciate that our ancestors have brought us these Martial Arts to learn from, appreciate and not ridicule.

Just an opinion.

Osu!

[Martin H]

Thread closed.
the reason is that it probably wont provide more info, and only stir emotions.