Cross Training?

[ShaneT]

OSU.

I realise that there is an "MMA" thread on the board but I wanted to direct this question to all Kyokushin people (in particular Knockdown fighters).

I am often asked, "why are there so few Kyokushin people in MMA?" And, "why does Karate have such a poor reputation in MMA?"

The root of the this whole debate would be: Cross Training

It seems that whilst many stylists of various arts appear to recognise the need for cross training, Kyokushin stylists generally focus only on Kyokushin. I can relate to this. It's a tough discipline and doesn't always leave room for much else!

But, I'm curious;

Do you, as a Kyokushin stylist, cross train in any other martial art(s)?

If yes - why?
What is it that you feel the additional art brings to you that Kyokushin alone does not?

If no - why not?
What is it about the art of Kyokushin that leads you to believe that additional "cross training" is not necessary? Or, is your reason something else entirely?

I'm looking forward to hearing the replies. I've spent YEARS in Germany and it's been a long time since I've had the chance to hear the opinions of english speaking stylists!

[ShaneT]

Just noticed this thread: http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums...read.php?t=826

Would still be interested to hear direct replies though and to see the Poll Results...

-ShaneT

[im.aho]

I would love to train in judo as well, but finances and time constraints does not permit that. (hence my vote at the top)

[Groucho]

Never really thought of it as "cross-training", I just happened to be interested in other martial arts...

But, I have trained in jujitsu, iaido and muay thai

And I'm currently training in Ashihara...and it has helped my overall game

[ShaneT]

Originally Posted by Groucho

Never really thought of it as "cross-training", I just happened to be interested in other martial arts...

But, I have trained in jujitsu, iaido and muay thai

Hey Groucho.

For me, cross training in about actively training in more than one style, at length, during the same period, with the specific intent of becoming a more "rounded" fighter/artist.

[Groucho]

For me, I always kept in mind the zen story about never focussing on the destination, lest you miss out on learning from the journey...

My most intense period of crosstraining was when I was living in Japan...at one point I was training in Kyokushin, jujitsu, Iaido, and K1/Shooto (world's craziest gym, btw...)

Eventually, it dawned on me that, wow, all the training was really coming together...but I set out to simply take what each art had to offer (well, the K1 was to improve my Kyokushin...)

Doesn't make the end result any different, though...

[Shokei Marcsui]

I think that a major aspect of fighting that we as kyokushin practioners are missing is the grappling aspect that can be found in san shou (aka sanda) or daido juku.

That can be easily supplemented with taking another martial art, but I believe that you should train to achieve your goals.

Each martial art focuses on different aspects. Kyokushin is more stand up versus MMA which tends to end on the ground.

Arguably each has positives and negatives but again it goes back to what are your goals?

Are you trying to become a better all around fighter? MMA

Are you trying to become a better martial artist that wants to build up a fighting spirit to endure hardships and develop a never say die attitude? Kyokushin.

Cross training could also techinically be defined as using other training methods to supplement a primary training method. IE: Weight lifting, sprinting, and swimming to enhance your kyokushin training.

[birba]

I agree that cross-training is valuable, especially regarding including some grappling aspects in our arts. However, I also believe that a practioner should have a strong base in his art ( at least shodan) before jumping to other arts. I see some people doing BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, at the same time, and they are terrible in each of them. Also, you should keep in mind the purpose of your training ( MMA? Self Defense, Fitness, and so on)

[feels]

Originally Posted by ponchoflash

I would love to train in judo as well, but finances and time constraints does not permit that. (hence my vote at the top)

Same. But I want to mainly focus on refining my striking technique, first.

Originally Posted by birba

I agree that cross-training is valuable, especially regarding including some grappling aspects in our arts. However, I also believe that a practioner should have a strong base in his art ( at least shodan) before jumping to other arts. I see some people doing BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, at the same time, and they are terrible in each of them. Also, you should keep in mind the purpose of your training ( MMA? Self Defense, Fitness, and so on)

Kudos.

[ichigeki31]

kyokushin is the only thing i truley beleive in and judo but i stay loyal to kyokushin from here till the end osu!!!!!

[ojgsxr6]

I believe that cross training is necessary to be a well rounded martial artist. I also believe that even if you train in a "complete" martial art like Shidokan, Daido Juko, Budo Kai, MMA etc. it still benefits the martial artiist to cross train, especially in my opinion, if the art that you crosstrain in specailizes in a facet of the base art.

e.g. Training in Enshin as well as crosstraining in Judo, in Enshin kumite a wide variety of throws are allowed, so why not cross train in an art that specializes in those throws. Or Training in Shidokan and also cross training in Brazilian Ju Jitsu, yes in Shidokan they train in grappling but cross training in a style that specializes in grappling (BJJ/SAMBO) you can pick up nuances that you only learn from specialization.

Another way is to crosstrain in arts that compliment each other, as in the throws of Enshin and the grappling of Brazilian Ju Jitsu. No matter how hard I try I don't always win the takedown attempt, so it would be beneficial to learn how to fight after being thrown or if I go down when I throw somebody else. (Judo ne waza may be a better compliment but we'll see.)

Also I don't always believe you need a strong base in a first art in order to crosstrain, unless you plan on training on something that's completely different like Baji Kung Fu, where if you train in striking(Kyokushin etc.) and grappling(SAMBO etc.) the only conflict may be time. Or as in my case training Enshin and boxing, where training in boxing just makes my punching better in Enshin and allows me to deal with punches to the head which are not allowed in Enshin kumite.

[ojgsxr6]

This thread was made a while ago by a Kyokushin/Judo blackbelt who has expereince in Kung Fu styles, and competed in Kyokushin, boxing, judo, and kickboxing. You can check his profile for specifics. The forum is Bullshido.com, sometimes the forum posters use vulgarity and make fun of each other harshly so if that offends you beware. But it is an interesting thread, with other opinions on crosstraining.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...ighlight=train

[psychoshonen]

i've always found that my interests tend to swing through different martial arts (not necassarily a good thing), which has given me the drive to train in many differnent arts. I've found concepts often compliment each other, but you have to be careful not to confuse yourself with too many different concepts (especially when you're not that advanced).

[Mistmare]

I train grappling and MMA with my brother in our home, but its only a small addition to Kyokushin.

[Setsuna162]

I do Shotokan and i also train in Shanshou kick boxing, both are good for me.
Shanshou is a quite rounded style. It has punchs, kicks, throws and take downs also some join locks and ground fighting.

[Dave UK]

It's better to know something than not to know it for sure, but I agree it all depends on what you want out of a martial art. If you are looking for 'the' complete system then you will be looking forever, unless you've discovered how to deal with your assailant's ten friends that are kicking you in the face while you lock him up in a grapple on the cold concrete of a pub car park!

But it certainly is worth trying out other things, especially things like BJJ which are simply brilliant in their own right. I tend to agree that we should stick at something for a while before crosstraining as I have lost count of the number of style drifters that I've met over the years that are simply not very good at lots of things.

I've been caught out when training with Muay Thai or BJJ guys, but it's never once made me think I'm doing the wrong thing, just that there's more out there to know and when I get the chance, I'll go and find it.

[ojgsxr6]

Originally Posted by Dave UK

unless you've discovered how to deal with your assailant's ten friends that are kicking you in the face while you lock him up in a grapple on the cold concrete of a pub car park!

The point of grappling for Self Defense is not to automatically go to the ground, it's so that you know what to do if you wind up there for whatever reason.

[Martin H]

Its not smart to grapple on the ground in a selfdefense situation. However its worth training some grappling to learn how to avoid getting taken down and forced into grappling. Because you can be sure that the assilant with ten friends will try to get you there.

I think Crosstraining is a good thing. you learn a little new stuff and get prepared to face other kind of fighters and techniques. If you got a good base, adding from other sources is only healthy. But without first building a good, firm base, you will risc becoming a joatmon (jack of all trades, master of none)

[Dave UK]

Originally Posted by ojgsxr6

The point of grappling for Self Defense is not to automatically go to the ground, it's so that you know what to do if you wind up there for whatever reason.

I agree and don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree it's worth learning, but the fact is that most real fights end up on the ground anyway and not in a time of our own choosing, which isn't a good place to be. I was simply making the point that nothing will ever prepare you for every eventuality, in reality there will always be many other factors you hadn't accounted for, but all preparation is good I agree. I think crosstraining should be undertaken from that positive perspective, and not from a negative perspective whereby the learner believes every system they've trained in before is inadequate and been a waste of time, an attitude I've heard and read many times and which I find quite sad and is quite normal amongst the 'joatmon' Martin mentioned.

[tobbe]

My opinion is that cross training is almost necessary. It depends a little on how you train in the dojo. If head strikes, ground fighting, clinch teqnique etc. ist allowed and taught and the knowledge of the instructors is good, then it may be okay to stay with Kyokushin only. Personally I like to try different stuff and train with persons from other styles. Not necessarily for a long period but just to get new input and ideas. I however train kick and thai to learn the boxing part. I noticed that you are more or less helpless without that skill against someone who knows it. And that hole in my skills where necessary to plug as I saw it. Some people argue that most fights go to the ground hence groundfighting skills is a must. I don't think there is any statistics to prove this. I would certainly not want to go to the ground, even if I where a Gracie, in a real situation. It is one thing to grapple on a mat and another on concrete, on a dance floor, on tarmac or on gravel. Plus the added bonus of your opponents friends kicking you in the head.... You must have some basic knowledge of course but I dont think being a BJJ master is the solution for a self defence situation. Just my few cents. //